Why do People Hate on Crossbow Expert?

[Sartharina]

There are five fingers on a hand, usually. Reload with your hands full. It's not that hard.

[Regulas]

...so you're okay with lifting a multi-billion-ton mountain, but not with

I find the lines you're drawing ... perplexing.

Lifting a mountain (assuming the part you are lifting doesn't collapse) requires same "mechanics" as lifting any object but more strength.

Loading dual hand crossbow requires added mechanical action beyond what you would normally have to do.

Having more leg power can make you run or jump faster, but it shouldn't be turning the ground you walk on into chocolate pudding.

[Regulas]

There are five fingers on a hand, usually. Reload with your hands full. It's not that hard.

The issue for me isn't just that you are reloading while your hands are full, so much as that the hands are also already doing other tasks.

I wouldn't mind it so much if you were just holding an object in the offhand but you are attacking with both already.

[Sartharina]

I wouldn't mind it so much if you were just holding an object in the offhand but you are attacking with both already.

In sequence, through six seconds. Fire/Fire, Reload, Reload, Fire/Fire, Reload, Reload.

[Eslin]

Surviving a fall from orbit is perfectly fine and acceptable. You could be tougher. Thrusting your hand through your body without causing an injury? That just doesn't make sense unless you are using magic.

There is a difference between being being beyond mundane means, and being immposible. Non-mages should be able to do things that are crazy and insane like lifting a mountain. They should not be able to do things that are phsycially immposible when they are explicitly are not using magic. Like lifting a mountain... on the other side of the planet without touching it.

They should get strength and speed that defies a normal person. But that's it they should still only be able to do what someone with super speed or strength could do. Because anything else is magic and they are explicitly not using it.

No, that's not how that should work. A character should be able to do anything related to their job that the rules allow.

This is like saying that polearm masters shouldn't get the extra attack with a quarterstaff and shield just because you have trouble imagining someone doing so. Martials are already severely behind in their capabilities - if the rules let them do something, you let them do that thing, you don't worry about realism because the game sure as hell doesn't. You assume they find a way, being masters of their field, to do whatever it is they can do.

In this case, a guy with a shield and a hand crossbow is firing the hand crossbow. How's he reloading it? No idea. Maybe he's using his teeth, maybe he's using his shield hand/a specific clip on the shield to hold the crossbow while he cranks it with the other hand, maybe he's got a repeating crossbow, maybe it's something else. When a martial wants to do something, in a game where casters can already do far far more, your first response should always be 'lets figure out how to let him'.

[Easy_Lee]

There is a difference between being being beyond mundane means, and being immposible...They should not be able to do things that are phsycially immposible when they are explicitly are not using magic. Like lifting a mountain... on the other side of the planet without touching it.

Two points:

• We don't know what's physically possible in the world of D&D. The only hints we have at its physics are in the PHB. If your real-world physics disagree with the PHB, your real-world physics are wrong in D&D.
• If only spell casters are able to go beyond certain limitations, then being a spellcaster is better than being a non-spellcaster. This is even more true in a system where everyone gets access to the same skills.

As a reminder, we're talking about a fantasy game. Let's agree not to use the phrase "physically impossible" when discussing the rules.

[Regulas]

Two points:

If only spell casters are able to go beyond certain limitations, then being a spellcaster is better than being a non-spellcaster.

Well by definition the whole thing with magic is the ability to go beyond limitations, wheras with the mundane you are stuck with the limits that naturally exist.

And if your character can do that then he's using magic. To be honest while I consider by RAW they are supposed to be mundane, and even if this lends creedence to bow loading; I do actually kind of consider ALL characters to be mages who are just using there powers unconsciously to augment themselves whether they know it or not. Cause the notion of mundane characters in a magical world is just funny, and it's the only real explanation for about anything they do (well maybe magic gear could also suffice).

[Eslin]

Well by definition the whole thing with magic is the ability to go beyond limitations, wheras with the mundane you are stuck with the limits that naturally exist.

And if your character can do that then he's using magic. To be honest while I consider by RAW they are supposed to be mundane, and even if this lends creedence to bow loading; I do actually kind of consider ALL characters to be mages who are just using there powers unconsciously to augment themselves whether they know it or not. Cause the notion of mundane characters in a magical world is just funny, and it's the only real explanation for about anything they do (well maybe magic gear could also suffice).

But what limitations naturally exist? Again, how many goblins you have slaughtered is directly related to how many arrow wounds suddenly disappear when you take an hour's nap and how likely you are to die when you fall off a bird thirty metres long depends on how angry you are when you hit the ground.

Easy_Lee said it best: If your view of what is physically possible and what the PHB says you can do disagree, your view is wrong.

[JoeJ]

In sequence, through six seconds. Fire/Fire, Reload, Reload, Fire/Fire, Reload, Reload.

I'm pretty sure I could reload and fire two hand crossbows without putting either of them down (although probably not within six seconds without an awful lot of practice). The grip is very similar to that of a handgun, so you can use your thumb and forefinger to control the first weapon leaving the other three fingers free to pull back the string and slip a bolt into the second one. Then repeat the sequence with the other hand. The trickiest part of the whole process would be keeping both weapons pointed in a safe direction the entire time - so I'd start out slow and learn to do it flawlessly before trying for speed.

[Eslin]

I'm pretty sure I could reload and fire two hand crossbows without putting either of them down (although probably not within six seconds without an awful lot of practice). The grip is very similar to that of a handgun, so you can use your thumb and forefinger to control the first weapon leaving the other three fingers free to pull back the string and slip a bolt into the second one. Then repeat the sequence with the other hand. The trickiest part of the whole process would be keeping both weapons pointed in a safe direction the entire time - so I'd start out slow and learn to do it flawlessly before trying for speed.

Sounds practical, though I probably couldn't do it. Now let's replace you with a crossbow expert who is as dextrous as humanly possible - look at that, it works.

[Finieous]

Sounds practical, though I probably couldn't do it. Now let's replace you with a crossbow expert who is as dextrous as humanly possible - look at that, it works.

Don't forget the owlbear chewing on your arm while you do it!

Twenty-seven pages to go...

[Easy_Lee]

Don't forget the owlbear chewing on your arm while you do it!

Twenty-seven pages to go...

That's probably why you have disadvantage when firing into melee...unless you have the crossbow expert feat. Damn, them's some skilled crossbow users.

[Speaker]

I don't know how people can say with a straight face that fighters can attack up to 8 or 9 times in 3 seconds with a polearm then go on about how its impossible for the fighter to dual wield hand crossbows. The ability to be that selective in how you think the game world works is well....unbelievable. I'd hate to be that guy who tells the fighter that he can't use a giant tree limb as an improvised weapon and attack with 8 times with it because he'd have to worry about it's logistics just like the same way I don't require casters to explain the physics or the logistics of their magic.

[MaxWilson]

I don't know how people can say with a straight face that fighters can attack up to 8 or 9 times in 3 seconds with a polearm then go on about how its impossible for the fighter to dual wield hand crossbows. The ability to be that selective in how you think the game world works is well....unbelievable. I'd hate to be that guy who tells the fighter that he can't use a giant tree limb as an improvised weapon and attack with 8 times with it because he'd have to worry about it's logistics just like the same way I don't require casters to explain the physics or the logistics of their magic.

I think you mean "in 6 seconds." Still impressive but not as difficult to imagine.

[Eslin]

I think you mean "in 6 seconds." Still impressive but not as difficult to imagine.

While moving and jumping and taking a bonus action.

[Cazero]

Reading the various posts, there is something big I don't understand here.
Some people here seem to believe you can't dual wield crossbows because it would be impossible to reload one with the other hand busy. Meanwhile, the rules seem to be allowing exactly that if you are using your crossbow with a melee weapon.

So, how exactly is it easier to reload your hand crossbow while holding a bastard sword rather than another hand crossbow in your other hand?

[Eslin]

Reading the various posts, there is something big I don't understand here.
Some people here seem to believe you can't dual wield crossbows because it would be impossible to reload one with the other hand busy. Meanwhile, the rules seem to be allowing exactly that if you are using your crossbow with a melee weapon.

So, how exactly is it easier to reload your hand crossbow while holding a bastard sword rather than another hand crossbow in your other hand?

Maybe the bastard sword has a crossbow reloading machine on it.

Legitimately my best guess, I don't know either.

[Speaker]

I think you mean "in 6 seconds." Still impressive but not as difficult to imagine.

How is that not difficult to imagine? Full strength blows at that speed is godlike. I don't think its as easy as you imagine it to be. Swinging or thrusting a weapon with as much strength as you can in that amount of time is amazing if its a polearm. A finesse weapon I can give you but swinging a polearm with full strength and accuracy at that speed is in the realm of demigods.

[Regulas]

Same would apply with a bastard sword as with a second bow. Regardless of the circumstances I would always require any loading like this to take a sleight of hand check at all times. OR optionally we could forgo ever rolling skill checks for anything. One or the other.



And I don't really get the argument of they should be able to do the impossible because they aren't mages. You are literally saying they do magic because they can't.

[toapat]

Same would apply with a bastard sword as with a second bow. Regardless of the circumstances I would always require any loading like this to take a sleight of hand check at all times. OR optionally we could forgo ever rolling skill checks for anything. One or the other.



And I don't really get the argument of they should be able to do the impossible because they aren't mages. You are literally saying they do magic because they can't.

blizzard explained how to reload a hand crossbow 1 handed in the Demon Hunter reveal cinematic, you have hip-quivers which you use to draw the bowstring and which have a, granted impossibly complex for medieval mechanical engineering, mechanism to ready a bolt for loading. the wielder, through alot of practice, hooks the bowstring in and loads a bolt with one thrust. there are Engineering problems galor but mechanical engineering problems =/= impossible.

and this is DnD, in 3rd we have characters who can speak gibberish at something and endear themselves so completely in that something's heart that it eclipses the power of magic to do the same Suggesting that some hyper-prodigy mechanical engineer hasnt come about to engineer the blueprints for a single action hip quiver for both right and left thighs is ignoring precident of the system itself

[Vogonjeltz]

I don't get it, there are subject titles and tags but no text.

Tap a subject title to expand it (didn't see anyone answer this by page 1)

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Sounds practical, though I probably couldn't do it. Now let's replace you with a crossbow expert who is as dextrous beyond real world humanly possible - look at that, it works.

There, slightly fixed that.

People view D&D races and think that their nonmagical abilities should be able to replicated by real world humans... Nah, screw that

[Cazero]

Same would apply with a bastard sword as with a second bow. Regardless of the circumstances I would always require any loading like this to take a sleight of hand check at all times. OR optionally we could forgo ever rolling skill checks for anything. One or the other.

Isn't autosuccess on that check the point of the feat? You are inserting a skillcheck where autosuccess is assumed due to character investment.

Magic is litteraly ordering the laws of physics to shut up and sit down while you rewrite part of reality in a way that you appreciate more. That kind of thing could require a skill check. But the skill 'magic' isn't used, because the current mechanics of magic makes uninteresting that additionnal complication.
Anyone with the right background can have access to magic, and wizards have no innate magic potential (as opposed to sorcerers). This implies that magic can be a trained skill, with automatic success an achievable thing while automatic failure is the norm. A skill check just wouldn't fit that critera without breaking bounded accuracy.
The ability to reload your crossbow insanely fast with your hands busy is similarly trained, except it's mundane. Putting a skill check on that because the skill exist is the same as asking a stealth check for every sneak attack, or an athletics check for every power attack, or...

Conclusion : you are making a distinction between two nonexistent skill checks solely because one is magic and the other mundane. Yes, that's a big difference, but you shouldn't cripple mechanics due to their nature only.


To ignore if you meant crossbow :
Also, a second bow draw the additionnal problem that it requires 2 hands to be used properly regardless of physical ability, while a crossbow requires the second hand to reloading purpose only, not to shoot.

[Eslin]

Tap a subject title to expand it (didn't see anyone answer this by page 1)

All that does is bring me to the same thing as whatever I just tapped except without the other items. As in clicking on crossbow expert changes nothing except that the page now has nothing but the crossbow expert bit.

[Regulas]

All that does is bring me to the same thing as whatever I just tapped except without the other items. As in clicking on crossbow expert changes nothing except that the page now has nothing but the crossbow expert bit.

Copy the title then paste it in the search field on the left. It should bring up the same thing only with the tweet. Had the same issue.

[Eslin]

Copy the title then paste it in the search field on the left. It should bring up the same thing only with the tweet. Had the same issue.

Cheers, thanks.

[Sartharina]

There, slightly fixed that.

People view D&D races and think that their nonmagical abilities should be able to replicated by real world humans... Nah, screw that

If they don't have a dexterity of 21+, they are not superhumanly dexterous.

Same would apply with a bastard sword as with a second bow. Regardless of the circumstances I would always require any loading like this to take a sleight of hand check at all times. OR optionally we could forgo ever rolling skill checks for anything. One or the other.

That is a false equivalence. There are some abilities you roll for, and some that are assumed possible. You don't roll Athletics to jump or climb, nor do you roll Perception to see things that aren't hidden, nor do you make Acrobatics checks to not fall down walking across a floor. Reloading a crossbow is a routine task that requires no check.

When casting a spell, do you require the caster makes a Dexterity(Sleight of Hand Check) to properly perform the Somatic Component, a charisma check to properly perform the verbal component, and Intelligence(Arcana) check to know how to cast the spell properly each time?

[SpawnOfMorbo]

If they don't have a dexterity of 21+, they are not superhumanly dexterous.

Not even close. A Dexterity 10 rogue can still dodge a fireball with a higher chance than a normal human.

All creatures within D&D are already beyond real world physically possible. We just need to remember this.

[Sartharina]

Not even close. A Dexterity 10 rogue can still dodge a fireball with a higher chance than a normal human.

That's because of his training, not his dexterity.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

That's because of his training, not his dexterity.

No, his training just makes him better than the fighter or mage. The fighter and mage can both dodge the same fireball and they don't have training in Dex saves.

You can't just chalk it up to training because every creature (that we know of) can get a Dex save versus a fireball and they all can somehow dodge some of the damage while they are within an explosion.

The training gives them a better chance but it isn't the base reason they are better than normal humans.