Baldur's Gate: The Thread

[ArlEammon]

I have a level 2 Swashbuckler. Should I Dual Class him at level 10 to a Fighter?

[Kish]

10 is a level that makes very little sense to dual-class. If you dual-class to a fighter then dual-class when you have all the thieves' skills you're going to want for the rest of the game.

Be aware that unless your Swashbuckler is a human with Dexterity 15+ and Strength 17+*, the answer to your question is, "No, you can't."

*After using the tomes you can find in BG1--so starting Dexterity of 14 and starting Strength of 16 will work.

[Winthur]

10 is a level that makes very little sense to dual-class.

But he's a Swash, so I assume he's aiming for the +1 AC and +1 damage - the class power.

The problem is that I am not sure if the Swash gets those bonus every 5 levels starting from level 1 (so 1+5 = 6, so 6th, 11th, 16th), or if it's every 5th level (so 5th, 10th, 15th, 20th). Advance your Swashie to level 5 and 6 and pay attention to the AC values and simply check it empirically.

As for your question - you can dual pretty much at any point, as there's plenty of joinable thieves in BG2 and dualling into a Fighter is a viable way to buff the vanilla Fighter class in some way (I enjoyed playing an ex-Mage/Fighter who only dipped into the Mage class for using a higher variety of scrolls and wands, and went on being a pure Fighter) if you want to play a versatile kitless Fighter (Berserkers and Kensais are a bit short on missile weapons and Wizardslayers are not versatile at all) for some flavor. Any thief, even the worst ones, can be easily buffed with the copious amounts of +% items to thieving skills, consumable and not, so the "Nalia is a terrible NPC because she can't steal lol who cares she still advances in singleclassed mage which kinda are top tier" is a noob meme.

That said, if you're playing in a very small party (though not that small; both Thief and Fighter advance pretty fast), you can obviously dual later.

I'd see it like this:
-huge party / lots of multiclasses / Swash purely as a dip - dual at level 5 (or 6, depending which one gets the Swash bonuses)
-just started a Swashie in BG2, planning Swash/Fighter in a large party, not concerned with micromanaging - dual right in Irenicus Chateau
-3-4-man party / 6-man party but with no multiclasses / just a bit of patience - 10 / 11 is pretty good
-solo and very experienced with micromanaging quest rewards (no scrollscribing abuse as with Swash/Mage, unless you temporarily hire an NPC) - 21 to get UAI

You can also stay pure Swash, but it kinda peters out in the late game in comparison, and I'm assuming you want a solid martial character with some thief utility in the mix. Will have monstrous AC, but after a certain point you're concerned with enemies that don't bother with AC or hordes of enemies that have multiple attacks per round and they're going to chip away at you.

[ArlEammon]

10 is a level that makes very little sense to dual-class. If you dual-class to a fighter then dual-class when you have all the thieves' skills you're going to want for the rest of the game.

Be aware that unless your Swashbuckler is a human with Dexterity 15+ and Strength 17+*, the answer to your question is, "No, you can't."

*After using the tomes you can find in BG1--so starting Dexterity of 14 and starting Strength of 16 will work.

But he's a Swash, so I assume he's aiming for the +1 AC and +1 damage - the class power.

The problem is that I am not sure if the Swash gets those bonus every 5 levels starting from level 1 (so 1+5 = 6, so 6th, 11th, 16th), or if it's every 5th level (so 5th, 10th, 15th, 20th). Advance your Swashie to level 5 and 6 and pay attention to the AC values and simply check it empirically.

As for your question - you can dual pretty much at any point, as there's plenty of joinable thieves in BG2 and dualling into a Fighter is a viable way to buff the vanilla Fighter class in some way (I enjoyed playing an ex-Mage/Fighter who only dipped into the Mage class for using a higher variety of scrolls and wands, and went on being a pure Fighter) if you want to play a versatile kitless Fighter (Berserkers and Kensais are a bit short on missile weapons and Wizardslayers are not versatile at all) for some flavor. Any thief, even the worst ones, can be easily buffed with the copious amounts of +% items to thieving skills, consumable and not, so the "Nalia is a terrible NPC because she can't steal lol who cares she still advances in singleclassed mage which kinda are top tier" is a noob meme.

That said, if you're playing in a very small party (though not that small; both Thief and Fighter advance pretty fast), you can obviously dual later.

I'd see it like this:
-huge party / lots of multiclasses / Swash purely as a dip - dual at level 5 (or 6, depending which one gets the Swash bonuses)
-just started a Swashie in BG2, planning Swash/Fighter in a large party, not concerned with micromanaging - dual right in Irenicus Chateau
-3-4-man party / 6-man party but with no multiclasses / just a bit of patience - 10 / 11 is pretty good
-solo and very experienced with micromanaging quest rewards (no scrollscribing abuse as with Swash/Mage, unless you temporarily hire an NPC) - 21 to get UAI

You can also stay pure Swash, but it kinda peters out in the late game in comparison, and I'm assuming you want a solid martial character with some thief utility in the mix. Will have monstrous AC, but after a certain point you're concerned with enemies that don't bother with AC or hordes of enemies that have multiple attacks per round and they're going to chip away at you.

Actually, I found out. At level 10 you will have the +1 AC and +1 to Hit and damage bonuses associated for every 5 levels. At level 10, I will just import my character into Baldur's Gate II and dual class into a fighter. The bonuses from scrolls will make his experience jump quite a bit.

[LibraryOgre]

Why go from thief to fighter?

[Calemyr]

Why go from thief to fighter?

Because a fighter with no penalties, +3 AC free, +2 Atk&Dam, and access to 10 levels of thief skills... is honestly pretty badass, and also entirely legit. Not like either game really pushes their luck with thief skills anyway.

Personally, I prefer going the other way around, but that requires using EEKeeper to give me the Swashbuckler kit after the swap and set my level to zero so it builds properly.

Of course, a fighter gets bonuses as far out as 13, so to get the most out of a fighter->Swash you'd need to be well into BG2 before it comes into play. Swash->Fighter pulls it off a lot cleaner, but you lose the Use Any Item HLA, which is frankly pretty darn awesome. (There's also HP concerns, of course)

[ArlEammon]

I've got to ask, why is it that Yoshimo is allowed as an option to choose in Throne of Bhaal, but you can't actually play him?

[Calemyr]

I've got to ask, why is it that Yoshimo is allowed as an option to choose in Throne of Bhaal, but you can't actually play him?

My bet? Because otherwise people would ask why an extra planar teleporter that can pull people from virtually anywhere couldn't pull our old buddy Yoshimo back from grave. A throwaway line and the limitations of the thing are known.

Besides, it evokes the Aerith factor: nothing creates the feeling of loss quite so effectively as a character slot that will forevermore be left empty.

[Kish]

I've got to ask, why is it that Yoshimo is allowed as an option to choose in Throne of Bhaal, but you can't actually play him?

Take him to Spellhold, and you'll find out.

Spoiler: You should really find out through playing the game rather than asking here

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Because he works for Irenicus and cannot survive Chapter Four; if he goes with you to Spellhold you'll fight and kill him there, if he doesn't go with you to Spellhold the geas Irenicus has on him will kill him for failing to bring you to Irenicus.

[ArlEammon]

Take him to Spellhold, and you'll find out.

Spoiler: You should really find out through playing the game rather than asking here

Show

Because he works for Irenicus and cannot survive Chapter Four; if he goes with you to Spellhold you'll fight and kill him there, if he doesn't go with you to Spellhold the geas Irenicus has on him will kill him for failing to bring you to Irenicus.

Just a second.

Spoiler

Show

I know. The thing is, they still give you the option in the list of choices.

[Kish]

And you know, apparently, that it doesn't actually summon him, so presumably you've been told (by the Fate Spirit) exactly why it doesn't work.

If the problem is that you can't imagine a PC who would want to ask the Spirit to summon Yoshimo, all I can say is that there are more things in the Abyss and the Prime Material Plane than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

[ArlEammon]

I bet you that in a competently written Baldur's Gate novel, Yoshimo would be resurrected by a good PC after becoming a good deity.

[ArlEammon]

Ajantis got the shaft very hard. I liked Tiax, it's like all the important characters died outside the party members.

[Calemyr]

I bet you that in a competently written Baldur's Gate novel, Yoshimo would be resurrected by a good PC after becoming a good deity.

Nah. Yoshimo's arc ends with taking his heart to Ilmater and freeing him from the Geas. You play that up, putting the catharsis in that action. Bringing him back does not add much beyond uprooting a completed story.

Honestly, I've toyed many times with writing the BG story myself. Called it "The Road from Candlekeep". When creating the outline for it, I tried to envision how the ToB finale would pan out:

Spoiler: How I would have done it

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Basically, I'd pull in Gaider's Ascension mod, with the Scion using his ties to Murder to pull murdered souls free: Khalid, Dynaheir, and Gorion, with the Solar saying after the fight that the Scion only had the power to bring one of them back to stay (there are divine reasons these three could not be resurrected, even with high level magic). Since the outline was made pre-SoD, I had the Scion romancing Dynaheir in BG1 (as per the BG1NPC mod), so the decision would have been heart-rending for the Scion, especially since he knew he couldn't choose her and she realizes it long before he can put it into words. In the end, it would have been Khalid he brings back with him, giving Jaheira the happy ending she deserves and finally paying back the father figure that stood by him in the hardest days of his life. Irenicus and the Six were powerful, but they don't hold a candle to those early days, to being weak and lost and alone and hunted by people he'd never even met before. And it was the stuttering elf with the crippling inferiority complex that held them together.

[mangosta71]

There's also the bit where, by the spell description in the tabletop books, the target has to be willing to be resurrected. It's entirely plausible that Yoshimo is glad to receive freedom/forgiveness from the Scion but doesn't want to come back.

[LibraryOgre]

There's also the bit where, by the spell description in the tabletop books, the target has to be willing to be resurrected. It's entirely plausible that Yoshimo is glad to receive freedom/forgiveness from the Scion but doesn't want to come back.

Not in AD&D; that was added in 3e.

[ArlEammon]

So, I had to use cheap tactics to defeat Sarevok. In fact, I lost to him seven times before finally whupping him. Funny that magic missiles work on him, isn't it?

I'm a level 7 Swashbuckler, maybe level 8 by now.

19 strength
19 dexterity
17 constitution
14 intelligence
14 wisdom
10 charisma

I fully intend on switching from Swashbuckler to fighter at level 10. +3 armor class, +3 to hit/damage and 10 levels of thief skills. . .
Anyone like my plan?

[Feytalist]

I fully intend on switching from Swashbuckler to fighter at level 10. +3 armor class, +3 to hit/damage and 10 levels of thief skills. . .
Anyone like my plan?

Sure, why not. You'll be a powerhouse by ToB. Just surround yourself with some mages and you'll be good.


I don't think anyone has defeated Sarevok without cheap tactics. Guy hits like a freight train.

[Triaxx]

I'm not sure it's possible to defeat him fairly. I never actually did. Even spamming the monster summon wand didn't seem to help. Fortunately, even Sarevok is no match for the mighty CTRL-Y. (Cheat Kill Command)

[Calemyr]

I don't think anyone has defeated Sarevok without cheap tactics. Guy hits like a freight train.

I absolutely agree. He's the kind of boss that demands cheap tricks. Not necessarily exploits and CTRL+Y, but massive stacking of spells, potions, wands, and anything else you can think of, tactical metagaming like lining the far half of the temple with skull tracks and then getting every mage to simultaneously launch fireballs (and potentially a cloudkill) centered three pixels before Sarevok becomes visible, and any combination of gear to give you some prayer of not being hit by the freight train multiple times each and every round.

[Triaxx]

Every time I try that, he gets hit, goes hostile, and then charges. Usually setting off the web trap, and paralyzing us for him to one shot one at a time. Did that trap get pulled from EE?

[Calemyr]

Every time I try that, he gets hit, goes hostile, and then charges. Usually setting off the web trap, and paralyzing us for him to one shot one at a time. Did that trap get pulled from EE?

No, but I also detect and disable the traps I can get to before catching his attention (or just triggering them and waiting out the effect before the fight starts). I keep the fighters in the back and switch ranks as he arrives. While Sarevok on his own is pretty scary, it's Sarevok with support that is the real problem. Setting up traps and AoEs to cripple and kill as many of his allies as possible is a major factor between deciding victory and defeat, I've found. That said, even when over-leveled with an optimized party and excellent stats and gear, and abusing any and all available expendables, he still has an absurdly high chance to curb stomp you.

He takes the challenge to the point where "playing intelligently" and "playing cheap" are virtually the same thing.

[Winter_Wolf]

I'm not really sure how good tactics can be considered cheap, unless one is the type that believes the proper way to have a fistfight is standing face to face in arms' reach and taking turns punching each other in said faces. True story, actually. My friend moved to a new school in new state back in the day and proceeded to unambiguously win a schoolyard fight but was deemed cheap and a cheater because he didn't just stand like a lump and trade single punches back and forth in turns. Probably because what was presented as "a fight" was actually a ritualized duel. But he still won and was left the hell alone after.

It's like saying guerilla warfare is cheap, but it's a huge part of winning against a superior force without the collateral damage of a warhead.

[Calemyr]

I'm not really sure how good tactics can be considered cheap, unless one is the type that believes the proper way to have a fistfight is standing face to face in arms' reach and taking turns punching each other in said faces. True story, actually. My friend moved to a new school in new state back in the day and proceeded to unambiguously win a schoolyard fight but was deemed cheap and a cheater because he didn't just stand like a lump and trade single punches back and forth in turns. Probably because what was presented as "a fight" was actually a ritualized duel. But he still won and was left the hell alone after.

It's like saying guerilla warfare is cheap, but it's a huge part of winning against a superior force without the collateral damage of a warhead.

Absolutely. Ambushes, min-maxing, and pulling out an entire game's worth of expendables for one fight is hardly cheating. But they can be seen as cheap. Like a 1-on-1 fighting game where this one guy has an easily spammable attack that covers a third of the screen and does a lot of damage. Kicking a guy in the crotch during a street fight isn't against any rules, but it's still a cheap move. There tends to be an unwritten definition of "fair play" in any contest, one that tarnishes victories earned in defiance of it.

[Triaxx]

The web trap was the one I could never get to without attracting attention and starting the fight early. It was the one mid-way across the Bhaalseal.

[ArlEammon]

Yes. My tactic was to lure Semaj and Sarevok away from Angelo, and to take him down that way. I'm happy that his magic resistance doesn't always work.

[Kish]

He has no magic resistance in the final battle (as he seems to have none when he killed Gorion). If you want to look at it from an immersed perspective, I'd suggest something like "all those Magic Missiles he ate killing Gorion convinced him to buy the Temple of Umberlee's entire stock of Potions of Magic Blocking and use them whenever combat seemed like a serious possibility, but he used up his last one at the Ducal Palace."

[Triaxx]

What do you mean none when he whacked Gorion? The console summoned version seems to have infinite. Usually you can see him resist Gorion's Sleep spell when the fight begins.

Also, Magic Missile ignores Magic Resistance entirely.

[ArlEammon]

Oh. I have always dreaded facing Sarevok with Dynaheir. Hence why my character is never an Invoker.

[J-H]

Magic Missile doesn't ignore MR in BG2, so it wouldn't in BG1Tutu either.