LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread II: Make It Double

[Astrella]

Thank you both for the sympathies (I accidently posted it in the wrong thread though, it should have gone in the main thread), and glad your presentation went well, Chambers.

[Anarion]

My presentation went really well. Nashville was in the grip of an ice storm so we had lower attendance than projected. I had about 10 people in my workshop, which to be honest suited me fine.

Because it was a small group I was able to get some good back and forth discussion at times and they seemed to enjoy the role-playing we did at the end. Simple stuff, like I would describe the situation, such as a breakroom at lunch, and I'd play the role of someone saying homophobic things. They responded well and were able to use some of the techniques and phrases that I went over in the presentation.

I didn't get to stay and attend some of the other workshops in the afternoon because of the weather as I wanted to get home before it got worse. But I enjoyed it overall and will probably put in a request to present next year as well, or at least attend. Thanks again for the feedback on the presentation.

Glad to hear it went over well and that the feedback was appreciated.

[JusticeZero]

*waves quietly* Hi, agender person here. I don't suppose I can have my 1/3 of a letter in the glossary please? (The aromantics might want their 1/3 too, or however that breaks out if there's a big ace overlap, but I don't know any, that I know of.)
I suppose someone could bug me if they wanted to know about agender stuff specifically, but I don't claim to be all knowing. *nodsnods* I tried to PM and ask, but someone's mailbox was full.

[Iruka]

*waves quietly* Hi, agender person here. I don't suppose I can have my 1/3 of a letter in the glossary please? (The aromantics might want their 1/3 too, or however that breaks out if there's a big ace overlap, but I don't know any, that I know of.)
I suppose someone could bug me if they wanted to know about agender stuff specifically, but I don't claim to be all knowing. *nodsnods* I tried to PM and ask, but someone's mailbox was full.

Hm, indeed.
Now I'm embarassed that I didn't notice this absence.

[Mono Vertigo]

*waves quietly* Hi, agender person here. I don't suppose I can have my 1/3 of a letter in the glossary please? (The aromantics might want their 1/3 too, or however that breaks out if there's a big ace overlap, but I don't know any, that I know of.)
I suppose someone could bug me if they wanted to know about agender stuff specifically, but I don't claim to be all knowing. *nodsnods* I tried to PM and ask, but someone's mailbox was full.

Apologies, I'd copied the glossary as is, and didn't double-check. This is now fixed.




This is as good a time as any to declare I'm back, BTW, I guess.

[SiuiS]

Apologies, I'd copied the glossary as is, and didn't double-check. This is now fixed.




This is as good a time as any to declare I'm back, BTW, I guess.

Hi! Cool, name and avatar shift, I can work with that.

[JusticeZero]

Yay!
Does anybody have any ideas how best to keep dysphoria from getting bad, given a situation where it is not possible to actually correct it?
Also, does anyone know what to say to someone who asks "Why now?" when it suddenly gets severe? I seriously have no idea why it comes and goes as much as it does.

[Mono Vertigo]

Hi! Cool, name and avatar shift, I can work with that.

Name shift was from several months ago, actually, and avatar is a M&M character I'm finally getting to play.

Also, does anyone know what to say to someone who asks "Why now?" when it suddenly gets severe? I seriously have no idea why it comes and goes as much as it does.

You know how migraines can come and go and vary a lot in intensity or length for no apparent reason (although the one constant is that it's awful)? Well, it's a bit like that.

[Icewraith]

So, summary of the last few days, my mom watched a show about trans people which means that every morning the last few days I've had to listen to her criticize trans women's bodies, appearances and voices. Add to that how in the show a dad said it still hurt that his daughter was trans and how she understood that and felt like that too. (great to hear that to my face cause I don't feel guilty enough yet about being trans) And then I should be proud of her cause she talks about it now, ignoring that the stuff she says is hurtful of course. And apparently everyone in the family just outs me to random people, cause why ask me how I feel about that right? (And off course the tons of guilt tripping everytime I try to say something my mom does is hurtful or such)

"Hey, it hurts when you do X. I know it might seem unfair, or not make sense to you, but emotions don't have to make sense to hurt and what you are doing still hurts. I know you would rather things turned out differently, but they didn't, and so I'm trying to do the best I can with my situation without going crazy or killing myself.

I don't hate you, and I hope that you're trying to help when you do X, but just because you think something is helping doesn't mean it actually is helping. Just because other trans people are okay with something like being completely out or aren't happy with being trans doesn't mean I am the same way or ready to do that yet, I'm a different person in different circumstances in a different stage of transition, and I have my own issues. When I'm ready to be out to random strangers I'll let you know. I know this isn't easy for you, and if there are things you have issues with that don't boil down to "I wish you weren't trans", I'll try to be more sensitive to those- I don't want to hurt you either.

So if I ask you to stop doing something, please don't ask why, or tell me I'm being unreasonable or anything like that, just stop doing the thing for now and we will try to figure out something that makes us both happy later, or I'll figure out WHY something hurts and how you can do that sort of thing without it hurting.

If it seems like I'm suddenly asking you to stop doing a lot of things, it's because we're all learning how to deal with this. A lot of times even if you did something that hurt I wouldn't say anything because it was easier to suffer in silence and I didn't have the words to tell you what was wrong. So just because I used to be fine with something, or other people are fine with this, doesn't mean I'm ok with it right now."

Would anything like that work?

[Coidzor]

Does anybody have any ideas how best to keep dysphoria from getting bad, given a situation where it is not possible to actually correct it?

Other than avoiding dysphoric triggers and stressors, I don't have any ideas, sorry. And that's rather predicated on at least a good portion of a person's dysphoria happening in response to some consicous experience rather than bubbling up internally or out of something where it's been in one's subconscious for so long one doesn't know if or what would have gotten the subconcious worrying at it.

Also, does anyone know what to say to someone who asks "Why now?" when it suddenly gets severe? I seriously have no idea why it comes and goes as much as it does.

Well, if you're not having to hide that you're experiencing gender dysphoria, there's really no good answer since we don't understand gender dysphoria well enough to say why it fluctuates or comes and goes if it's not in direct response to some kind of stressor, like being misgendered or harassed over one's gender identity.

And if you're having to hide that you're experiencing dysphoria there'd be even less options for answering that could be called good, I think.

[JusticeZero]

I've been having a lot of trouble recently with my spouse misgendering me. A lot of the time I would just let it slide, but something recently just made it feel intolerable all of a sudden. I can think of a few particularly disorienting incidents, but they mostly fall after the attack started. Needless to say, those incidents ended up being pretty miserable.
I AM hiding it from the public at large, and am mostly closeted since it's easy to do.

[Icewraith]

I've been having a lot of trouble recently with my spouse misgendering me. A lot of the time I would just let it slide, but something recently just made it feel intolerable all of a sudden. I can think of a few particularly disorienting incidents, but they mostly fall after the attack started. Needless to say, those incidents ended up being pretty miserable.
I AM hiding it from the public at large, and am mostly closeted since it's easy to do.

Was your marriage based on the assumption that you're cis when you subsequently discovered you are trans? Is your spouse bi?

If the answers are yes and no respectively, get ye to a couple's therapist. Probably do that anyways if you're not already, but if your spouse isn't attracted to the gender you're becoming and remains that way despite your combined best efforts you're going to have to decide not if, but when and how you're going to terminate your marriage. If you end things gently you can probably remain very good friends, but it's no more reasonable to expect your spouse to remain married to someone who isn't a gender she's attracted to than it would be to expect you to remain a gender you're not.

If you're not actually transitioning, or the situation is more complex.... therapy is probably still your best bet. If your spouse knew going in that you were whatever your status is, and misgenders you on purpose that's probably still extraordinarily bad news for the future of your marriage.

If the situation is different we may need some additional details (like your sexes and genders, whether or not there are kids, who knew what when, etc.), but that's what I got from your post.

Edit: Is this a more recent thing or something you've always struggled with and only have recently come to terms with? If it's recent you might consider getting your neurology checked out, just in case.

[JusticeZero]

Was your marriage based on the assumption that you're cis when you subsequently discovered you are trans? Is your spouse bi?

I'm agender, not trans; I don't have a valid gender that I can transition to. Gender dysphoria is a condition I will need to manage permanently. I don't have a light at the end of the tunnel where I transition over and feel okay with myself matching my self-image.

My spouse is at least gender nonconforming and very possibly on the shallow end of trans, so far as I can tell, but they aren't connected with any of the community for that and haven't done anything beyond some androgynous presentation choices which were a big reason I was attracted to them.

I've tried explaining my gender a few times, including before the wedding at least twice. I don't think the misgendering is so much intentional as very sloppy, and I haven't wanted to put my foot down and start demanding they be fixed in public because that's embarrassing.

There's a stepdaughter in the house old enough to buy their own beer but no other kids. If you need our genders.. well, I can give you that, but revealing that is a significant dysphoria trigger in and of itself, particularly in the open. I've had a lot of bad experiences with how stressful it is when people stop interacting with me and start interacting with their mental image of the genitals that were randomly given to me, completely ignoring anything I have to say after that save as a cue to hallucinate another message from my assigned genitals.

[Anarion]

I'm agender, not trans; I don't have a valid gender that I can transition to. Gender dysphoria is a condition I will need to manage permanently. I don't have a light at the end of the tunnel where I transition over and feel okay with myself matching my self-image.

My spouse is at least gender nonconforming and very possibly on the shallow end of trans, so far as I can tell, but they aren't connected with any of the community for that and haven't done anything beyond some androgynous presentation choices which were a big reason I was attracted to them.

I've tried explaining my gender a few times, including before the wedding at least twice. I don't think the misgendering is so much intentional as very sloppy, and I haven't wanted to put my foot down and start demanding they be fixed in public because that's embarrassing.

There's a stepdaughter in the house old enough to buy their own beer but no other kids. If you need our genders.. well, I can give you that, but revealing that is a significant dysphoria trigger in and of itself, particularly in the open. I've had a lot of bad experiences with how stressful it is when people stop interacting with me and start interacting with their mental image of the genitals that were randomly given to me, completely ignoring anything I have to say after that save as a cue to hallucinate another message from my assigned genitals.

If I might ask a question. How do you want to be referred to? Is there a complexity to this that I'm not understanding, or could you tell your spouse the whole thing in less than 5 minutes and then provide gentle reminders?

[JusticeZero]

Pronouns: Them, they, their, themself.
"My other half", "my spouse", "person I married", etc.
The main issue is that they tend to gush the highly gendered equivalents to other people, in my presence. It's especially disorienting when it's for something that is stereotypically associated with the opposite gender.

[Coidzor]

I've been having a lot of trouble recently with my spouse misgendering me. A lot of the time I would just let it slide, but something recently just made it feel intolerable all of a sudden. I can think of a few particularly disorienting incidents, but they mostly fall after the attack started. Needless to say, those incidents ended up being pretty miserable.
I AM hiding it from the public at large, and am mostly closeted since it's easy to do.

Why have you not spoken up about this chronic habit of misgendering you in private? And if it's in public and you don't want to make a scene you can always wait until you're in private to remind them. Or praise them for when they're doing good, too.

[Icewraith]

Pronouns: Them, they, their, themself.
"My other half", "my spouse", "person I married", etc.
The main issue is that they tend to gush the highly gendered equivalents to other people, in my presence. It's especially disorienting when it's for something that is stereotypically associated with the opposite gender.

Ahh ok. I saw a trans friend go through a rough breakup with her (very supportive) now ex-girlfriend who turned out not to be as bi as either of them hoped she could be, so your post was viewed through the lens of that knowledge.

There's a potential corner case where your spouse might be trying to do you a favor since you're not generally "out" by not using terms that might cause other people to realize there's something up with you gender wise. Or your spouse doesn't know that bothers you. Or if your spouse is also nonconforming those language choices might be a part of them nonconforming, and they hopefully don't know it bothers you. Either way, probably time for a chat, but you've also got the issue of this conversation intended to avoid giving you dysphoria attacks possibly triggering one.

If you've got things that help you out with such attacks (soothing music? tea? security item from your childhood? Something that smells like your favorite kind of terrain?), have them available. Otherwise, have the conversation in private, when you're relaxed, rested, and feeling ready to talk about the issue. Also do it when you don't have anything else scheduled for the rest of the day if you don't want to deal with other people while you might be recovering from an attack. I don't know how badly they mess you up or any of the particulars, but you do, so basically plan like you're going to need to deal with the dysphoria after you have the conversation and be pleasantly surprised if it doesn't happen. If you haven't already you could research methods of dealing with anxiety or panic attacks and phobias, it probably won't be as simple as copy-pasting and then replacing "clowns" with "gender" but there's probably overlap in terms of dealing with and overcoming/recovering from the effects, depending on the severity. (This is all cribbed from my experiences dealing with family members who have anxiety attacks, full disclosure.)

When it happens in public you can't do a whole lot about it immediately without outing yourself (correcting your spouse with "spouse" if they say "wife" or "husband" would be a dead giveaway), but you can talk about it in private with your partner and remind them to be careful after the fact when they do it. You can also try a code phrase ("remind me to water the plants when we get home" if you have fake plants, for instance).

With that said, people are human, so your spouse is likely to mess up from time to time-especially at first, in a "don't think about elephants" way. However, you should be able to significantly reduce the frequency with time and patience.

[JusticeZero]

So for someone who is adult who is just working out that they are T, though exactly what all that means is unclear, what are the first things to do to get sorted out more and start to get more comfortable with the ideas involved?

[Jeff the Green]

Is there a term that isn't horribly awkward for hetero-/homoflexible but on the romantic rather than sexual side? Or has someone named a romantic version of the Kinsey scale?

[SiuiS]

Is there a term that isn't horribly awkward for hetero-/homoflexible but on the romantic rather than sexual side? Or has someone named a romantic version of the Kinsey scale?

Biromantic, with preference?

[Anarion]

For romance, I'd still call that biromantic. Romance is a little more flexible because people like to do potentially romantic activities (e.g. day out walking, nice dinner etc.) with friends too, so I think biromantic is an accurate description for exploring or being flexible. I do kind of like "romantically bicurious" as Tragak suggests though. It has a nice ring to it.

@JusticeZero: read some articles about them? Raise specific questions here or in the support thread? The way you ask the question leaves me a little unclear. I just don't know what "the ideas involved" means, so if you do have something more specific you'd like to know about, that would help.

[Coidzor]

So for someone who is adult who is just working out that they are T, though exactly what all that means is unclear, what are the first things to do to get sorted out more and start to get more comfortable with the ideas involved?

Socratic Method time? Ask themselves how they feel, just what they're thinking, what they want to know, what questions they want to ask, who they want to talk to?

Is there a term that isn't horribly awkward for hetero-/homoflexible but on the romantic rather than sexual side? Or has someone named a romantic version of the Kinsey scale?

Considering that heteroflexible basically is already implied to cover both romantical and sexual senses, and is further modified by context, I don't believe you'd have a non-awkward division into only sexual or only romantical senses, no.

[Serpentine]

Heteroromanticish? Heteroromantic-but-flexible? None of them really roll off the tongue...

[JusticeZero]

Dunno. I'd just say "Usually/mostly heteroromantic" (Or, I guess, "Occasionally homoromantic" works, since they're both presented as a relationship to a binary) and if someone is confused, they can ask for clarification.
I think "Demiheteroromantic" would, technically, work, but it looks weird too so I wouldn't go there.

[Serpentine]

Demiheteroromantic is something I'd describe myself as, actually. But the demi- modifies the -romantic part, not the -hetero- part. That is, I have a lot of trouble developing romantic feelings, but if I do I would expect them to be for a guy.
Pseudoheteroromantic? Circaheteroromantic?

[noparlpf]

I've seen demiromantic used on AVEN.

[Coidzor]

I've seen demiromantic used on AVEN.

Just generally or specifically for cases where a dude might date a guy but would never shtup 'im?

[noparlpf]

It's usually used like demisexual, but for romantic interests.

[Coidzor]

It's usually used like demisexual, but for romantic interests.

Well, clearly it has some relationship to demisexual, yes. It'd be weird if it didn't. Even if trying to grok just how the heck demiromanticism would work in comparison with the standard model where one has to like someone before one will want to form an intimate connection with them can be a bit consternating at times.

Still, I suppose you did answer my question, even if it was far too indirectly. So, err, why did you mention it now, seeing as it has nothing to do with what was just being discussed?

[Serpentine]

Uuuuh... Because other people brought it up, in expanded form?

Dunno. I'd just say "Usually/mostly heteroromantic" (Or, I guess, "Occasionally homoromantic" works, since they're both presented as a relationship to a binary) and if someone is confused, they can ask for clarification.
I think "Demiheteroromantic" would, technically, work, but it looks weird too so I wouldn't go there.

Demiheteroromantic is something I'd describe myself as, actually. But the demi- modifies the -romantic part, not the -hetero- part. That is, I have a lot of trouble developing romantic feelings, but if I do I would expect them to be for a guy.
Pseudoheteroromantic? Circaheteroromantic?

It isn't equivalent to heteroflexible, but it's not really like he brought it up out of nowhere.