LGBTAI+ Questions and Discussion thread II: Make It Double

[YossarianLives]

Nothing here seems more offensive than the standard implications fantasy races have. I'm assuming you're familiar with Terry Pratchett's dwarves, and I don't think there’s ever been a kerfuffle over them. In terms of mono-sex races if Steven Universe, Mass Effect, and Star Trek can get away with their implications in our society you should be fine there as well. Although both the Asari and the Gems look incredibly similar to human females so that might tint things in lesbian-coloured glasses.

Right, thanks. I just wanted to be sure.

Also, I'm imagining hundreds of dwarves getting drunk and shaking beard-spores onto the ground of a giant messhall being the cultual way of them reproducing; where the beard spores incubate in the thin layer of alcohol covering the ground.

I may have to steal this.

Masterkerfuffle, you have the advantage of having an entirely made-up fantasy society that doesn't even have standard reproduction. I would say it's hard to have unfortunate implications.

True, I suppose. I just didn't want to offend any actual non-binary people.

Though, one random question that pops to my mind is: what bits do the elves have 'down there', and are those bits compatible with other human(oids) even if they aren't fertile? I re-read your post, and realized you mentioned them not having a physical sex.

My current theory is that, as elves don't have any sort of genitalia, all their bodily waste comes out in the form of rapidly growing hair. (The main reason most elves have long hair; they can't be bothered to cut it everyday.)

[Coidzor]

My current theory is that, as elves don't have any sort of genitalia, all their bodily waste comes out in the form of rapidly growing hair. (The main reason most elves have long hair; they can't be bothered to cut it everyday.)

Well, that would explain a lot about human-elf relations, too.

[goto124]

My current theory is that, as elves don't have any sort of genitalia, all their bodily waste comes out in the form of rapidly growing hair. (The main reason most elves have long hair; they can't be bothered to cut it everyday.)

Shouldn't that mean they have a lot of body hair? There was this Rapunzel joke from Cyanide and Happiness...

Oh right, divine feature!

[Irish Musician]

I haven't stopped in to say this yet, but I love you all. I honestly haven't been able to put thoughts together yet, as my emotions haven't stopped swirling around.

I love you all, I'm so so so sorry, and please be as safe as you can. You all matter, you all are amazing, and you all deserve to live just the same as everyone else.

[Ravens_cry]

Question from the peanut gallery. I'm in Canada (British Columbia to be more precise), already on HRT, and if I were to emigrate from Canada to California, USA, what would I need to do to keep that up?
Would I have to go through the whole vetting process again (please God, no), or . . . ?

[Icewraith]

Question from the peanut gallery. I'm in Canada (British Columbia to be more precise), already on HRT, and if I were to emigrate from Canada to California, USA, what would I need to do to keep that up?
Would I have to go through the whole vetting process again (please God, no), or . . . ?

I doubt it. You should probably talk to your insurance provider about whether or not or for how long they cover you after you move. If your insurance doesn't follow you, you'll need to get new insurance in CA (you should probably compare anyways). Either way you'll need to find a new doctor in CA, but since you're picking the doctor and you're already under treatment the new one should just pick up where the old one left off.

[CuriousWanderer]

What is the best way to apologize for calling a female-looking agendered person "she"?

[Icewraith]

What is the best way to apologize for calling a female-looking agendered person "she"?

"I'm sorry."

You might follow up with "What would you like me to use instead?"

[CuriousWanderer]

"I'm sorry."

You might follow up with "What would you like me to use instead?"

That is about what I did, though I feel that there might have been a better way to handle it.

Thank you anyways.

[JNAProductions]

That is about what I did, though I feel that there might have been a better way to handle it.

Thank you anyways.

Just be honest and polite. If you're actually sorry, then a simple apology is all that's really needed.

[Glass Mouse]

Just be honest and polite. If you're actually sorry, then a simple apology is all that's really needed.

Cis person here, so grain of salt and all that. But general apology etiquette says to offer an appropriate-level* apology and then strive to never do the thing again. Self-flagellation is 100% self-serving and only results in the other person having to comfort you instead.

*Appropriate-level means following the other person's lead. If they politely correct you, a simple "I'm sorry" is all you need. If they burst into tears, maybe your apology needs to include a pot of tea and a listening ear, too.

[Dire Moose]

Question: Can hormone replacement therapy alter a person's personality and interests, and if so, to what extent?

I have a close friend who is transgender (mtf) and is about to begin transition. Personality-wise there are two versions of her: a facade that she has to put up in public of a standoffish male, and the version of her I have come to know that appears when she drops that facade, which is a tomboyish gamer girl who is very kind, has a pretty smile, and a quirky, sarcastic sense of humor.

The two of us met due to a strong shared interest in gaming, both tabletop and video gaming, and that's formed the basis for our lasting friendship. If anything, she's even a more hardcore gamer than I am. And interestingly enough, she has never really expressed much interest in stereotypically feminine things. She has always known she was trans since the beginning.

I have generally been encouraging her to go farther in transition because she is clearly uncomfortable with herself as she is; however, I recently ran across some information that frightened me. I have read several accounts of people's thought processes, perceptions, and senses changing during hormone therapy, as well as mention of personality traits and even interests shifting. One notable similarity seemed to be that trans women were claiming less interest in video games after starting HRT (see here and here) and more interest in "girly" things.

I find this very hard to believe; I was always under the impression that transition wouldn't change a person's personality and interests, just improve their emotional state and put them at peace with themselves. The core person would remain the same. Apparently there are also a few studied showing that brain patterns before and after HRT are different.

I'm now honestly really afraid of this. I had wanted her to be able to drop the facade completely and be more comfortable with expressing her true inner self publicly all the time. But yet these posts all suggest that she will instead switch over to a third, more "girly" version of herself over time. Being a gamer is such a big and important part of her identity that if she loses that she definitely wouldn't be herself anymore.

I'm confused. I had always maintained that trans people were fundamentally their target gender in terms of brain structure and HRT only removed dysphoria and allowed the body to match what was in the mind.

I have to ask because, while I would never want the quirky tomboy gamer girl I know to have to live as her old male self, I want her to stay the same quirky tomboy gamer girl I've always known and not have to become a twisted, super-feminine girly version of herself that bears little resemblance to the girl I know her to be. Point is, I just want to see her be herself, as I know her, and not end up erasing that identity with mind altering chemicals.

Are any of these fears founded in reality?

[Icewraith]

Question: Can hormone replacement therapy alter a person's personality and interests, and if so, to what extent?

I have a close friend who is transgender (mtf) and is about to begin transition. Personality-wise there are two versions of her: a facade that she has to put up in public of a standoffish male, and the version of her I have come to know that appears when she drops that facade, which is a tomboyish gamer girl who is very kind, has a pretty smile, and a quirky, sarcastic sense of humor.

The two of us met due to a strong shared interest in gaming, both tabletop and video gaming, and that's formed the basis for our lasting friendship. If anything, she's even a more hardcore gamer than I am. And interestingly enough, she has never really expressed much interest in stereotypically feminine things. She has always known she was trans since the beginning.

I have generally been encouraging her to go farther in transition because she is clearly uncomfortable with herself as she is; however, I recently ran across some information that frightened me. I have read several accounts of people's thought processes, perceptions, and senses changing during hormone therapy, as well as mention of personality traits and even interests shifting. One notable similarity seemed to be that trans women were claiming less interest in video games after starting HRT (see here and here) and more interest in "girly" things.

I find this very hard to believe; I was always under the impression that transition wouldn't change a person's personality and interests, just improve their emotional state and put them at peace with themselves. The core person would remain the same. Apparently there are also a few studied showing that brain patterns before and after HRT are different.

I'm now honestly really afraid of this. I had wanted her to be able to drop the facade completely and be more comfortable with expressing her true inner self publicly all the time. But yet these posts all suggest that she will instead switch over to a third, more "girly" version of herself over time. Being a gamer is such a big and important part of her identity that if she loses that she definitely wouldn't be herself anymore.

I'm confused. I had always maintained that trans people were fundamentally their target gender in terms of brain structure and HRT only removed dysphoria and allowed the body to match what was in the mind.

I have to ask because, while I would never want the quirky tomboy gamer girl I know to have to live as her old male self, I want her to stay the same quirky tomboy gamer girl I've always known and not have to become a twisted, super-feminine girly version of herself that bears little resemblance to the girl I know her to be. Point is, I just want to see her be herself, as I know her, and not end up erasing that identity with mind altering chemicals.

Are any of these fears founded in reality?

In my experience (sample size = 1), yes. But I think if being a gamer is actually a core component of her personality and not something she associates with trying to "be" male, she's more likely to remain interested. Also, when my friend came out as trans our group of friends was already splitting up due to careers, life, etc so there wasn't really anyone for her to keep up her old nerdy hobbies with. If she has friends to game with throughout the transition I think it's more likely to stick.

The individual I have experience with had a large amount of personal trauma and messed up family complicating the whole thing, so she ended up dumping everything she associated with being male.

You SHOULD expect a sudden explosion of girliness once HRT really starts to kick in. She'll be trying out all the female things that her appearance previously limited her access to (or that she tried earlier but it didn't look right and now it does). Being suddenly granted a great deal of personal freedom in an area where a person's behavior was previously rigidly constrained results in them exploring that freedom with a vengeance. That's not the HRT, it's just human nature. The change in behavior often also occurs in closeted gay men (especially from conservative backgrounds) who have just come out publicly (suddenly they're lisping so hard you can slip on it and wearing body glitter) and recent divorcees/people exiting very long term monogamous relationships (start sleeping with anything that moves and partying and drinking like they're 20 instead of 30). This isn't hyperbole either, these are specific examples drawn from individuals I have known personally.

Most of the time, once they've explored their new field of possibilities they'll settle back down. Imagine if you were very lactose intolerant and suddenly you weren't. You'd probably go on a milk product food binge, figure out what you liked, and then integrate dairy into your diet in a more reasonable manner. Same sort of thing.

[Astrella]

Note that gaming can also be a strong source of escapism, when / if she's feeling better about herself she might not have as much of a need for it. (Not saying that that's necissarily the case, just know that that's often the case with trans women like you mention.)

[goto124]

First thing that comes to my mind is "find good-quality girly games". I'm not sure what that would consist of, though...

[CuriousWanderer]

Why does the gender selection have intersex, which is a sex, and not androgynous or agender, which are genders?

Seems like the creators might have not known the...difference.

[CuriousWanderer]

First thing that comes to my mind is "find good-quality girly games". I'm not sure what that would consist of, though...

Try Undertale, tis is pretty gender-neutral and LGBT+ friendly.

[Siosilvar]

Try Undertale, tis is pretty gender-neutral and LGBT+ friendly.

Can you, uh, not? Mods around here tend to view posting whole posts in colored text as "Please Don't: Excessive Formatting", and especially red since it's the color they post in for official warnings & such.

[JNAProductions]

I'll actually second Undertale. I wouldn't say it's necessarily great from a gender point of view (I mean, it's got a protagonist of indeterminate gender, a lesbian couple, strong female characters, strong male characters... Okay, it's pretty damn good about it) but it's just a plain fantastic game. I would heartily recommend playing it to anyone and everyone.

[Dire Moose]

OK, I brought up my concerns with my friend, and between that and what I've heard here and elsewhere it seems things are pretty unfounded. There are some changes in emotions and possibly sexuality, as HRT is essentially going through puberty again, but as far as one's personality or interests go it's not going to replace my friend with someone else.

A lot of the changes in apparent interests seem to occur in trans people before HRT even starts, as a result of self-acceptance and coming out. It seems that in a lot of people, HRT just gives them the confidence they need to allow themselves to engage these interests. For one, I learned my friend actually does have an interest in shopping that she really can't do much with yet; if I didn't know about that i might have attributed it to HRT.

As for video games specifically, I was told trans women lose interest for a number of reasons that have nothing to do with HRT. There is what was mentioned above; they are often used as a way of escaping depression and avoiding others, they are sometimes used as a way of fitting in with male culture, and after transition trans women are subject to the same dismissive treatment given to other female gamers. She actually didn't play video games that much anymore and I had simply revived some of her interest in them. She's more into tabletop games now.

Another relevant account I heard was one trans woman who, partway into her transition, somehow got the idea that video games were holding her back and gave up on them. She eventually realized that idea was silly and got right back into gaming a year later. It likely goes back to the "explosion of girliness" phenomenon above, and she had felt it was too much of a guy thing to hold onto. My friend, meanwhile, has long been well aware of the phenomenon and assures me that she has nothing to prove by jumping into a bunch of girly things.

[EternalMelon]

Why does the gender selection have intersex, which is a sex, and not androgynous or agender, which are genders?

Seems like the creators might have not known the...difference.

Intersex around here is usually also used for non-binary or gender fluid people iirc. And not declaring a gender kinda works as androgynous or agender, although the system isn't perfect.

Can you, uh, not? Mods around here tend to view posting whole posts in colored text as "Please Don't: Excessive Formatting", and especially red since it's the color they post in for official warnings & such.

Also its better to not double-post, its frowned upon here and you can accomplish the same by using the edit button.

@DireMoose

I haven’t heard anything before now about HRT changing personality and interests to that level before now, besides what Icewraith has already mentioned. If she does change though you can't really change that anymore than you can change someone simply losing interest in their hobbies. Hopefully you two remain friends and she still retains her preferences for gameing, if for no other reason than gaming being cool.

NInja Moose'd: Glad to hear things are going well.

[Dire Moose]

@DireMoose

I haven’t heard anything before now about HRT changing personality and interests to that level before now, besides what Icewraith has already mentioned. If she does change though you can't really change that anymore than you can change someone simply losing interest in their hobbies. Hopefully you two remain friends and she still retains her preferences for gameing, if for no other reason than gaming being cool.

Yeah, I don't think that's going to happen. The people in the thread I linked may be ascribing their own freedom to explore new interests to HRT (again, what Icewraith mentioned). A decent analogy might be found in what the IFCC mentions in this comic.

As for the article, I always thought it made no sense and seemed way off-base. It may be that there's a 20-year timeline there and the actual timing of the woman's changes in interests are not discussed. She may have abandoned some things as coping mechanisms or gained new interests as time went on, but a lot of it just doesn't line up with anything else I have seen. If anybody could explain what might be going on there, I'd appreciate it.

EDIT: Should also mention that my friend isn't on HRT yet. Also Melon, don't you ever give up gaming either ;) .

[goto124]

As for video games specifically, I was told trans women lose interest for a number of reasons that have nothing to do with HRT. There is what was mentioned above; they are often used as a way of escaping depression and avoiding others, they are sometimes used as a way of fitting in with male culture, and after transition trans women are subject to the same dismissive treatment given to other female gamers. She actually didn't play video games that much anymore and I had simply revived some of her interest in them. She's more into tabletop games now.

Having seen the highly misogynist gaming culture that goes on in some of the larger gaming circles (e.g. attributing "basic respect of women and LGBT people" to "political extremism"), I can see why she avoids it. Even cis women have avoided gaming cultures for these reasons.

It's why it may be good to look for women-positive games and gaming cultures. Undertale would likely be much better than Street Fighter.

[EternalMelon]

EDIT: Should also mention that my friend isn't on HRT yet. Also Melon, don't you ever give up gaming either ;) .

If she's changing before HRT, It's safe to say she's self actualizing and picking up stuff she wants to do, without the pressure of outside choices. If you want a friend who plays games with you the only thing you can do is continue to do what you were doing. Having a friend with the same interests as you is a great way to keep up with said interest.

Also you don't have to worry about me giving up gaming, that doesn't look like its going to happen. Confession time, but I kinda have a guilty pleasure of being a "Gamer Girl", even though I know it means nothing. Even then I tend to prefer game culture to the other ones I've experienced. Gamings been a part of my life since basically as long as I remember (predating some of my trans-thoughts even) so that changing doesn't look likely. Changes in sexuality I'm cautiously curios about though....

Having seen the highly misogynist gaming culture that goes on in some of the larger gaming circles (e.g. attributing "basic respect of women and LGBT people" to "political extremism"), I can see why she avoids it. Even cis women have avoided gaming cultures for these reasons.

It's why it may be good to look for women-positive games and gaming cultures. Undertale would likely be much better than Street Fighter.

It looks like its getting better though! Right now we have some companies that seem to be ignoring the outspoken ignorant minorities and pushing for better diversity and representation. Maybe some day we will have as many flavours or female characters as we currently have of white muscled dude*. There is some push back from people who think that sexism ended in the 20th century but on the flip side we also have communities that understand that people are people and should be treated like people.

*My favourite is roid-raging, followed by strawberry.

[Dire Moose]

Oh, another change I've often seen reported is a loss of competitive behavior and less of a need to win arguments.

There is a larger reason I've been concerned too. If HRT can alter a person's mind as much as the woman who wrote the first article (linked here because new page) claims, it would basically kill the idea of "they're still the same person you always knew, just more authentic." Taking that much away from someone would effectively kill them and replace them with someone else, without the person even realizing their original self was dead.

And if that was indeed what HRT did, I wouldn't be able to ever support its use, ever. What good would it do for a family to accept their son is really their daughter and let their daughter's inner personality shine if her personality is just going to be erased and replaced with someone else's? If that's the case, it would be far better to look for another way to transition and preserve the original personality instead.

I hope that isn't true, and it had better not be. And given everything else I've read and heard, I can be pretty sure it isn't, but I still wonder what exactly was going on with that woman.

[EternalMelon]

Oh, another change I've often seen reported is a loss of competitive behavior and less of a need to win arguments.

There is a larger reason I've been concerned too. If HRT can alter a person's mind as much as the woman who wrote the first article (linked here because new page) claims, it would basically kill the idea of "they're still the same person you always knew, just more authentic." Taking that much away from someone would effectively kill them and replace them with someone else, without the person even realizing their original self was dead.

And if that was indeed what HRT did, I wouldn't be able to ever support its use, ever. What good would it do for a family to accept their son is really their daughter and let their daughter's inner personality shine if her personality is just going to be erased and replaced with someone else's? If that's the case, it would be far better to look for another way to transition and preserve the original personality instead.

I hope that isn't true, and it had better not be.

I think you're having more of an existential crisis than a crisis of faith. While I couldn't find any un-biased scientific studies on the subject (something that I think definitely should happen and would like to know the results of either way) large changes in self acceptance and outlook do tend to cause changes in personality, as agreed upon earlier. In the first article, it may be that the contributing factor is age, as a decline in video-game activity is documented by many cis-males by age and also by time spent. For the second forum post a brief look seems to posit a similar amount of people expressing large change in personality also report having no change in personality. Additionally, it is reported that HRT causes changes in emotions and severity of emotions. Thus it may be hypothesised that interests that garner a small amount of enjoyment/apathy/frustration that may go unnoticed prior to transitioning may have the feeling amplified by the new chemicals. This may make passing interests into hobbies, or diminish the enjoyment of past interests through increases in negative emotions associated with the activity.

As for the existential crisis, you are describing a known philosophical quandary. Consider the Ship of Theseus. It is impossible to determine if the person before and after personality changes are the same person, just as it is impossible to determine if I'm responding to the same Diremoose as the one that is reading this. If you consider a chemical changing an outlook to be creating a new person, would you say someone drinking alcohol kills their present self, and then a few hours later, dies again to become themselves again? Or to become someone else? How would you categorize sleeping? Do you die everyday to wake up a new person?

I'm going to leave those questions open ended, as they are answers that I cannot give. If you are struggling with existentialism and these quandaries, I wholeheartedly encourage you to do some further research yourself, as I have no doubt done a terrible job at explaining things. Maybe by the end of it you will be able to apply your knowledge to the problems you face now.

TL;DR: Melon rambles incoherently.

[Serpentine]

I have heard a suggestion that HRT causes someone to go through something like a "second puberty", with all the tribulations and woes that comes with. I don't know whether there's any reliable information on that, but it's been suggested to explain the behaviour of a friend of mine and sort of made sense.

There is the fact that, you know, people change all the time, because of all sorts of different things. That's natural.

[Coidzor]

Well, puberty is a hormone cocktail and a half that fundamentally alters the child into an adolescent and if they live along enough (which is hopefully the overwhelming majority of the time) eventually into an adult.

Some trans men experience a second one from the perspective of getting all of the years of being a teenage hormonal boy in a big rush that lasts less years than adolescence takes. There's an infamously shared exerpt from the perspective of a trans man who'd been raised to be a good little second or maybe third wave but probably second wave feminist soldier against the patriarchy and how he lost the fight against ogling women completely after HRT.

In the end, though, you're stuck playing the waiting game and being as good of a friend as you can be.

Either she loses interest in gaming and you have no common ground and the friendship ends or it doesn't. Most methods of trying to alter that outcome would just make the undesired one more likely.

Aside from being a good friend and maintaining a welcoming atmosphere.

Oh, another change I've often seen reported is a loss of competitive behavior and less of a need to win arguments.

That could be the natural effects of less Testosterone(a hell of a drug that sadly does a bit more than make men a bit better at bulking up on muscle and killing caribou). It could be no longer having to keep in practice for performing a role when she has to act as a man for society at large to ignore her. It's no fictional personality erasure juice, though.

I've found it simpler to usually assume that various factors mean that a trans person is holding back in some way or another, even to themselves and those closest to them, until well into having been living transitioned full time, which may or may not involve HRT.

[Dire Moose]

Problem is, I thought trans people were already their target gender internally and hormones only allowed the body and mind to match. Is this somehow not the case?

And transition is usually done as stated above, the mind is already one way, the body is another, and that causes so much distress that the body has to be made to match what the mind already is in order for the person to feel complete. That is how I have always understood it.

Also, I have no problem with people changing naturally due to life experiences, but for someone to take hormones and cause their personality to suddenly shift as a result, that worries me.

Honestly, the impression I was getting before all this was that HRT only alters the physical body, and may have a few emotional or sexual effects, but otherwise just makes the person more content with themselves and leaves the underlying personality intact. That's all I wanted, and all she wanted, really. She's already told me that the person I've seen when we're together is the real her.

Some trans men experience a second one from the perspective of getting all of the years of being a teenage hormonal boy in a big rush that lasts less years than adolescence takes. There's an infamously shared exerpt from the perspective of a trans man who'd been raised to be a good little second or maybe third wave but probably second wave feminist soldier against the patriarchy and how he lost the fight against ogling women completely after HRT.

I'm not surprised at the idea that hormones could change sexuality, as it is pretty much like a second puberty as you said. I've been serving as a kind of mentor to a trans guy who transitioned socially last year at 14 but hasn't started HRT, and who says he likes girls but is asexual/aromantic and couldn't imagine ever wanting a relationship. Drawing comparisons to my own experience going through puberty, I feel as though I should tell him to expect his feelings toward girls to get 10 times stronger and to definitely not expect to be asexual anymore.

[Astrella]

I mean, would you also be opposed to anti-depressants since like, not being depressed is likely going to mean someone is quite a different person from their depressed selves?