Alignment changes [Belkar]

[orrion]

Regardless of whether or not this comic was ever a gag-a-day kind of thing, that bit from #58 was still indeed in the oots canon, and if one is to judge anything within a given thing objectively, one must use that thing's own rules.*

...

In my opinion.

...

*edit: reworded for clarity

Things from that early have been trumped or disregarded before, so it wouldn't be anything new. I'm not even sure what rule you're referring to. That a high Wisdom score correlates to a cessation of violence? That makes zero sense.

Anyway, this is beside the point. Regardless of whether an increased Wisdom score for Belkar would do what it did in comic #58 it's still quite clear at this point that Belkar revels in violence.

[Darth Tom]

I suppose the other question is whether an alignment change would actually be a good thing, whether for Belkar personally or the narrative as a whole. From a narrative perspective I guess it could be as it's one way of providing character development - although we have seen that the Giant has no shortage in that area. Personally for Belkar, I'm less convinced, mostly because alignment doesn't seem to be all that significant a factor in a character's actions. We've seen Miko, who was anything but good while meant to be a paragon; and it's possible that the necessities of trade and diplomacy will make Gobbotopia a functioning city with less automatic anti-human bias.

[Darth Paul]

Things from that early have been trumped or disregarded before, so it wouldn't be anything new. I'm not even sure what rule you're referring to. That a high Wisdom score correlates to a cessation of violence? That makes zero sense.

The "rule" being that if it happens to Belkar once, it must happen to him every time. But Orrion is right, most things like that from prior to #100 or so that were one-off gags are not going to happen again.

In any case, there is no evidence- zero, zilch, nada- that a high WIS translates to a peace-loving, non-violent personality. Case in point; Miko has already been mentioned, whose Wisdom was well into the 'teens, and yet who had no qualms whatsoever about resorting to violence when provoked. Even better case in point; Redcloak, whose Wisdom may easily be up around 20 (haven't checked the character sheet thread, sorry), and who often turns to violence as his preferred option.

So... yeah. Wisdom score =/= non-violence.

[Jay R]

While I agree that it was a throwaway joke from the days of a joke-a-day comic strip, not even that strip suggested that Wisdom necessarily implied non-violence in general. It merely stated that Belkar's violent streak stemmed from his anger, which seemed petty with greater Wisdom.

(on drugs Wisdom):Wow ... the world seems so much clearer now .. I can understand everything. <snip> I've wasted my life on anger and needless rage, when I might have been healing.

[veti]

While I agree that it was a throwaway joke from the days of a joke-a-day comic strip, not even that strip suggested that Wisdom necessarily implied non-violence in general. It merely stated that Belkar's violent streak stemmed from his anger, which seemed petty with greater Wisdom.

(on drugs Wisdom):Wow ... the world seems so much clearer now .. I can understand everything. <snip> I've wasted my life on anger and needless rage, when I might have been healing.

I think this is a more important episode than people give it credit for. Looking at that, can you seriously doubt that for those few frames, Belkar is Good? Regardless of his earlier or later actions, for that brief episode, he's Good.

Alignment isn't some sort of global reckoning of everything you've ever done. Okay, it's sometimes played that way - but that's only because the DM can't read the character's mind and see what's really motivating them, so they have to go by outer appearances. But if the DM can read the character's mind - as in OOTS - the DM knows exactly when the character's had a real change of heart, and doesn't have to wait for the moral accountants to catch up.

Alignment is a reflection of what you are, not what you have been. As soon as Belkar has had opportunity and motivation to do evil acts, and turned down those opportunities, enough times to establish a pattern - he'll no longer be evil. He doesn't have to do a whole pile of Good acts to cancel out his Evil ones. If he starts thinking like a neutral, he'll be neutral.

That's what the fiends' '50/50' comment about V meant: "if she starts thinking like an evil character, she's ours, and the guilt of an act like that is very likely to do the trick".

My current guess is that Belkar is going to find himself neutral, before he tries to use the clasp against Durkula. And when he does use it, and doesn't feel the effect (whatever it is), his first thought will be that it's not working.

[Jak]

Things from that early have been trumped or disregarded before, so it wouldn't be anything new. I'm not even sure what rule you're referring to. That a high Wisdom score correlates to a cessation of violence? That makes zero sense.

Anyway, this is beside the point. Regardless of whether an increased Wisdom score for Belkar would do what it did in comic #58 it's still quite clear at this point that Belkar revels in violence.

Okay, when was #58 trumped or disregarded?

[orrion]

Okay, when was #58 trumped or disregarded?

I didn't say it was. I said that things from that early in the comic have been trumped or disregarded.

Right now, comic 58 is irrelevant because there's no evidence of a Wisdom increase and Belkar is still clearly Chaotic Evil.

[Jak]

I didn't say it was. I said that things from that early in the comic have been trumped or disregarded.

Right now, comic 58 is irrelevant because there's no evidence of a Wisdom increase and Belkar is still clearly Chaotic Evil.

Well, the main plot hook was also revealed to us within the first hundred strips, so wouldn't it be wise to at least consider, since it hasn't been trumped yet, that comic 58 is a decent basis for theory? I'm not saying that it has to be that way, I'm just saying that Belkar's wisdom stat could play a role in his alignment. It's a plausible hypothesis.

[Peelee]

Well, the main plot hook was also revealed to us within the first hundred strips, so wouldn't it be wise to at least consider, since it hasn't been trumped yet, that comic 58 is a decent basis for theory? I'm not saying that it has to be that way, I'm just saying that Belkar's wisdom stat could play a role in his alignment. It's a plausible hypothesis.

Comparing a single-strip joke to the main plot is disingenuous at best.

[Jak]

Comparing a single-strip joke to the main plot is disingenuous at best.

So we're discrediting everything that is a joke in the first 100 strips?

[Peelee]

So we're discrediting everything that is a joke in the first 100 strips?

I would not assume that obvious jokes at the 3.5 system that were only present in a single strip in the first 100ish comics are canonically accurate without additional verification. Unless you wish to state that you believe Vaarsuvius has Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion in his spellbook, or that Elan is lacking an unknown internal organ, to give two examples.

[Jak]

I would not assume that obvious jokes at the 3.5 system that were only present in a single strip in the first 100ish comics are canonically accurate without additional verification. Unless you wish to state that you believe Vaarsuvius has Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion in his spellbook, or that Elan is lacking an unknown internal organ, to give two examples.

In short, yes, I do. Only in the case of Elan's missing organ, I assumed it was healed by the healing potion 2 strips later. I assume that, unless stated otherwise, everything presented in the comic is true to the comic. Seems like a risky bet, I know, but I like to live on the edge.

[Peelee]

In short, yes, I do. Only in the case of Elan's missing organ, I assumed it was healed by the healing potion 2 strips later. I assume that, unless stated otherwise, everything presented in the comic is true to the comic. Seems like a risky bet, I know, but I like to live on the edge.

No worries, then. One point of contention, though - the organ wouldn't be healed by the potion.

Regenerate
Level: Clr 7, Drd 9, Healing 7

The subject’s severed body members (fingers, toes, hands, feet, arms, legs, tails, or even heads of multiheaded creatures), broken bones, and ruined organs grow back.

[Jak]

No worries, then. One point of contention, though - the organ wouldn't be healed by the potion.

I don't see any contention there. I think regenerate covers severed organs, too. But that's just the way I interpreted it.

[Peelee]

I don't see any contention there. I think regenerate covers severed organs, too. But that's just the way I interpreted it.

?

No other healing spell covers things like organs; only regenerate specifically does. This is less an issue of interpretation and more an issue of you changing the way potions work because it fits in with your view better. Or else there's no reason to say that the same healing potion couldn't grow back severed limbs. I have no issue if you feel the events of the early strips are to be kept to 100% faithfully, but the way the potions and spells work are laid out with intentional wording and intent, and you are ignoring both.

[Jak]

?

No other healing spell covers things like organs; only regenerate specifically does. This is less an issue of interpretation and more an issue of you changing the way potions work because it fits in with your view better. Or else there's no reason to say that the same healing potion couldn't grow back severed limbs. I have no issue if you feel the events of the early strips are to be kept to 100% faithfully, but the way the potions and spells work are laid out with intentional wording and intent, and you are ignoring both.

I don't think I understand how my interpretation deviates from the intent of the spell. It seems to me to be a sort of "catch all" healing spell. Is that not the case?

[Peelee]

I don't think I understand how my interpretation deviates from the intent of the spell. It seems to me to be a sort of "catch all" healing spell. Is that not the case?

The intent of the spell is to heal damage. The intent is not to grow back bodily parts. That falls solely under the domain of Regenerate. If not, then Regenerate is a useless spell, entirely without merit.

[Jak]

The intent of the spell is to heal damage. The intent is not to grow back bodily parts. That falls solely under the domain of Regenerate. If not, then Regenerate is a useless spell, entirely without merit.

Oooooohh! I thought it was a potion of regenerate. Okay, I see now. I don't know then, maybe it was his appendix. Humans don't need those, right?

[Peelee]

Oooooohh! I thought it was a potion of regenerate. Okay, I see now. I don't know then, maybe it was his appendix. Humans don't need those, right?

Understandable. For the record, only spells of 3rd level or lower can be brewed into potions, and even then, having a potion of regenerate around level 10 would be a bit.... impressive, is the word I'll use. Also, like I said, I have no issue with your belief in the continuing adherence to accuracy of the early strips, so long as that belief is consistent. Which yours definitely is.

[Jak]

Understandable. For the record, only spells of 3rd level or lower can be brewed into potions, and even then, having a potion of regenerate around level 10 would be a bit.... impressive, is the word I'll use. Also, like I said, I have no issue with your belief in the continuing adherence to accuracy of the early strips, so long as that belief is consistent. Which yours definitely is.

I try to be consistent, thanks for the compliment.

Sorry about the misunderstanding, I never really had much experience with potions, or even casters for that matter, (one of my weaker points.)

So uh. Yeah.

[Darth Paul]

While I agree that it was a throwaway joke from the days of a joke-a-day comic strip, not even that strip suggested that Wisdom necessarily implied non-violence in general. It merely stated that Belkar's violent streak stemmed from his anger, which seemed petty with greater Wisdom.

Thank you, Jay, that is a perspective I had never thought of before.

Now could anyone explain why Belkar's tunic turned white instead of green while the spell was in effect?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

In short, yes, I do. Only in the case of Elan's missing organ, I assumed it was healed by the healing potion 2 strips later. I assume that, unless stated otherwise, everything presented in the comic is true to the comic. Seems like a risky bet, I know, but I like to live on the edge.

Actually, the case of the spiked tentacles is one of the few were The Giant has said that he wouldn't have included. This is because a) he sees that joke as an inappropriate one to make and b) Vaarsuvius barred Conjuration. So there are definite cases were early jokes have been seen as contradictory at best.

[hamishspence]

Now could anyone explain why Belkar's tunic turned white instead of green while the spell was in effect?

Possibly for the same reason V's outfit turned black while V's under the Soul Splte, and back to its normal colour afterward:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html

it's a handy visual cue.

[orrion]

So we're discrediting everything that is a joke in the first 100 strips?

Grain(s) of salt, more like.

Besides, it's still irrelevant. None of the cues of that scene have come up (no increased Wisdom, no clothing change, no attitude change). Until they do this conversation is kind of useless.

At this moment, Belkar's still Chaotic Evil. He's just a little less indiscriminate about it.

[littlebum2002]

Given that Class and Level Geekery had Durkon pegged at level 11 by strip 201, it really isn't an issue. He just waited a few weeks then regenerated the organ. Still ancient history now.

The bigger question is the Spiked Tentacles. Maybe they're another school? What school are V's various "hand"spells supposed to be?

[orrion]

Given that Class and Level Geekery had Durkon pegged at level 11 by strip 201, it really isn't an issue. He just waited a few weeks then regenerated the organ. Still ancient history now.

The bigger question is the Spiked Tentacles. Maybe they're another school? What school are V's various "hand"spells supposed to be?

Clerics don't get access to Regenerate until level 13.

The Hand line of spells are Evocation.

[Gusion]

Grain(s) of salt, more like.

Besides, it's still irrelevant. None of the cues of that scene have come up (no increased Wisdom, no clothing change, no attitude change). Until they do this conversation is kind of useless.

At this moment, Belkar's still Chaotic Evil. He's just a little less indiscriminate about it.

I think we have seen an attitude change, that I would say started with his acquisition of Scruffy. It has been an incremental attitude change, no doubt, but I think there certainly has been one. Yes, he's still CE... but I think he may make a conscious choice not to be in the near future.

It merely stated that Belkar's violent streak stemmed from his anger, which seemed petty with greater Wisdom.

Good point. Maybe he's angry because nobody ever loved him and now Scruffy does!

[Jak]

Thank you, Jay, that is a perspective I had never thought of before.

Now could anyone explain why Belkar's tunic turned white instead of green while the spell was in effect?

Possibly for the same reason V's outfit turned black while V's under the Soul Splte, and back to its normal colour afterward:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html

it's a handy visual cue.

I was wondering the same thing. Belkar's tunic and cape are a lot bluer in #128, too.

[Kish]

Belkar can use the clasp just fine, he just has to grit his teeth to do it. Being Neutral would not, based on anything he knows at this time, save his life, just save him a little pain when he's preparing for a domination attempt.

[littlebum2002]

Clerics don't get access to Regenerate until level 13.

The Hand line of spells are Evocation.

Sorry, I always mess up those tables.

Anyway, the point is, it is entirely possible that Elan walked around missing a less-important organ for a few months until Durkon Regenerated it, and it is entirely possible that Spiked Tentacles was an Evocation spell.