I'll NEVER Die! (A Guide to the 5E Barbarian)

[numerek]

Feats:

4: Great Weapon
8: Sentinel
12: Tough
16: Con+Dex +1
18:str+2
20:dex+2

Ability Score Increase levels are 4, 8, 12, 16, 19. Add 6 and 14 if fighter, add 10 if rogue. Never 18 or 20 and this means only 5 feats for barbarians.

[numerek]

He threw his hands up and went to help our cleric make their character sheet when I told him I am going to use a Portable Ram as my main weapon, and a Greataxe when I feel like it.

I don't know what you have worked out with your dm but portable ram is not a weapon, if you wanted it say that it is a weapon it would probably be a greatclub(actually it would be over 3 greatclubs by weight), the die of which is only a d8. If you are agreeing that it is not a weapon but an improvised weapon then you don't get your proficiency bonus regardless of the damage dice.

Alternatively, I think a maul is just as manly and does 2d6, you can even fluff that you ram things with it.

[silveralen]

Well, I'd say you undervalue variant human a bit personally. Barbarian can really use a free feat for GWM/Polearm master, and with standard array or point buy you don't even really hurt yourself.

Which also leads to polearm master, with barbarian's flat damage bonuses the ability to make up to two additional attacks per round (always active bonus action+another potential reaction) gives it some real mileage.

I'm also not sure why dex barbarian is even being discussed in the guide, it seems to be trying to be an attempt to play a monk.... badly. Being hard to kill from HP and Dex sounds great till you realize lot of casters can beat your melee damage with cantrips. (2d8+10<3d10+5). Sure you are hard to kill... which won't matter because your enemies will ignore you due to your complete inability to threaten anything in a meaningful way. Maybe if your DM tends to just accept you are the "tank" and therefor all the monsters charge you it works, but if the enemies use strategy or are played intelligently, you get targeted after everyone else in the party is down.

[Mechaviking]

Multiclassing is very simple in 5e, since they got rid of the clunky BAB system and instead rely on proficiency bonuses that scale with character level. The Barbarian makes a good dip class because of Reckless Attack, but it actually is horrible when it comes to dipping in other classes because of Rage's spellcasting restriction. Note that you really want to hit the power spike that Extra Attack gives at level 5, so it is often not recommended to multiclass before then.

With that in mind, I'll list the pros and cons of the 3 completely spell-less classes it can dip into:

Spoiler: Monk

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The class brings with it too many restrictions (has to be unarmored, can't use a shield, must use monk weapons, limited resource pool) to properly make use of its class features.

You get a bonus action unarmed attack that adds your rage bonus damage, but the same thing can be obtained by using a reach weapon and taking the Polearm Master feat. Also, the monk's Ki pool is too limited if you're just dipping.

Verdict: Multiclassing into Monk is a trap.

Spoiler: Fighter

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A 1-level Fighter dip grants you a mediocre heal that is good for early levels but doesn't scale. 2 levels grant you an extra action once every short rest, but slows down your other class features. The extra action is not worth the two level investment, and since Barbarian and Fighter overlap on so many things, you don't gain a whole lot for such a small investment.

The only way to get a substantial gain is to invest 3 or more levels into Fighter. Champion is probably the best choice for the expanded critical range, since Eldritch Knight is an auto-no due to spellcasting and Battlemaster abilities become mediocre later on.

You could go the full 4 levels to not lose out on a feat, but often you slow your Barbarian progression too much for it to be worth it.

Verdict: At least 2 levels for Action Surge, maybe 3 for Champion archetype.

Spoiler: Rogue

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Ah, the rogue. This unlikely multiclassing choice is actually surprisingly good for a Barbarian, even if you don't use a finesse weapon for Sneak Attack. For this choice, you're sacrificing some Hp and either some weapon damage dice or sneak attack damage dice.

By switching to a rapier to take advantage of sneak attack, you lose up to 2.5 damage per attack, and more on crits, but you gain +3.5 damage per round per sneak attack dice. If you plan to invest more than 2 levels in Rogue, you'll end up using a Rapier to take advantage of Sneak Attack damage dice.

Here are some notable features you gain from dipping into Rogue:

1 level: You gain Expertise, a skill proficiency, proficiency in Thieves' Tools and +1d6 Sneak Attack damage. It's not worth it to switch to a finesse weapon yet, but Expertise in Athletics is a huge boon for Barbarians who desire more battlefield control through Grappling and Shoving people. You can use a versatile weapon to not lose too much damage while not grappling.

2 levels: Cunning Action lets you speed across the battlefield like a madman, and is in general a very powerful feature to have. You could also gain proficiency and Expertise in Stealth to make a sneaky Barbarian, which is a fun concept to explore.

3 levels: +2d6 Sneak Attack damage and a Roguish Archetype. Arcane Trickster is actually okay for out of combat utility, and Thief does provide a climb speed and an extra use for Cunning Action, but Assassin is the archetype that will let you turn your sneaky Barbarian into a death machine against surprised foes. Even if you don't surprise enemies, Assassinate gives advantage on attack rolls against enemies that act after you on the first turn of combat, and you can go first reasonably often thanks to Feral Instinct.

4 levels: This level allows you to not lose out on your normal feat progression.

5 levels: Uncanny Dodge makes you even tankier against big attacks, and +3d6 sneak attack damage is nothing to scoff at, especially since you can trigger it whenever you want with Reckless Attack.

So let me get this straight:

Barbarian 5/Rogue 5/Fighter 2

That´s Conan the Barbarian...Right?

[Gwendol]

So let me get this straight:

Barbarian 5/Rogue 5/Fighter 2

That´s Conan the Barbarian...Right?

That's pretty much it. Perhaps a bit too heavy on the rogue side of things, but to each his own (Conan).
I also agree that the DEX-barbarian, while not devoid of merit, will be lacking offensive power. Specifically, grappling, disarming, and shoving; three areas in which the STR-barbarian reigns supreme, are not being fully developed. These are three very potent tactical options, besides smashing face, that shouldn't be neglected.

[numerek]

Well, I'd say you undervalue variant human a bit personally. Barbarian can really use a free feat for GWM/Polearm master, and with standard array or point buy you don't even really hurt yourself.

Which also leads to polearm master, with barbarian's flat damage bonuses the ability to make up to two additional attacks per round (always active bonus action+another potential reaction) gives it some real mileage.

I'm also not sure why dex barbarian is even being discussed in the guide, it seems to be trying to be an attempt to play a monk.... badly. Being hard to kill from HP and Dex sounds great till you realize lot of casters can beat your melee damage with cantrips. (2d8+10<3d10+5). Sure you are hard to kill... which won't matter because your enemies will ignore you due to your complete inability to threaten anything in a meaningful way. Maybe if your DM tends to just accept you are the "tank" and therefor all the monsters charge you it works, but if the enemies use strategy or are played intelligently, you get targeted after everyone else in the party is down.

2d8+10 which is 19 vs 3d10+5 which is 21.5 (which is only achievable by draconic sorcerer and evocation wizard) yes warlock can do 3d10+15 with 30' push back which is 31.5 but that is their thing and even with armor of agathys the warlock isn't going to be as effective as a tank as the dexbarian is trying to be especially since the warlock would need to crossbow feat to use eldritch blast effectively in melee and then with point buy he would have to be variant human to have 20 charisma at 11th level. Also those ranged spell casters can kite the creatures while the dexbarian keeps getting in their way and getting attacks of opportunity against the creatures that are using strategy and intelligence.

[silveralen]

2d8+10 which is 19 vs 3d10+5 which is 21.5 (which is only achievable by draconic sorcerer and evocation wizard) yes warlock can do 3d10+15 with 30' push back which is 31.5 but that is their thing and even with armor of agathys the warlock isn't going to be as effective as a tank as the dexbarian is trying to be especially since the warlock would need to crossbow feat to use eldritch blast effectively in melee and then with point buy he would have to be variant human to have 20 charisma at 11th level. Also those ranged spell casters can kite the creatures while the dexbarian keeps getting in their way and getting attacks of opportunity against the creatures that are using strategy and intelligence.

First off, the caster comparison was to illustrate how hilariously bad a dex barbarian is at damage. If your best attack can be compared to a non warlock cantrip, you are barely even a factor in combat.

Yes, with his AoO each round the barbarian barely manages to edge out a dragon sorcerer throwing fire bolt, but loses to a warlock. That's.... so underwhelming it hurts. That's literally his max damage at lvl 20 losing to a lvl 11 warlock's cantrip. I don't know how you expect such a character to accomplish anything, literally just a sack of hit points that contributes almost no damage.

The dex Barbarian can't tank. Period. He is a complete non threat with his AoO unless he grabs sentinel, which makes his damage more laughable as he delays ability increases. If his attack hits, he deals 9.5 damage max. That's right, a dex barbarian's max AoO damage is under 10 points. A strength barbarian actually gives enemies incentive to hit him, yet he is likely to survive, and an enemy trying to move away could take 15-30 points of damage in the process. That's how you actually tank, you make enemies want to stay near and punish them for trying to get away. Dex barbarian is useless for that, like most things.

I'll say it again, dex barbarian is useless. Full stop. He has no purpose, no useage, no reason to exist. His damage is pathetic, he can't hold aggro, his only upside is being hard to kill, which simply increases the time it takes a TPK to occur once his teammates get overwhelmed. He literally contributes nothing another class wouldn't offer more of.

[NeoSeraphi]

Well, I'd say you undervalue variant human a bit personally. Barbarian can really use a free feat for GWM/Polearm master, and with standard array or point buy you don't even really hurt yourself.

The benefits of these feats are not nearly as useful at level 1-3 before you get a feat at level 4. Taking -5 to attack rolls at that level is a good way to ensure you miss. Polearm master is nice sure, but I'd rather have..you know...features.

Let's compare: GWM is something you can get at any time. So is Polearm Master. In exchange for this, you give up +1 to Str and Con for a Mountain Dwarf, or +1 Str for a half-orc. So in essence, you're trading +1 to two stats for a feat...how is this a good thing? This is what you could do with the feat slot later anyway, but higher stats is just plain better early because it gives you more accuracy and more HP, period.

Not to mention, the racial features cannot be replicated by taking a feat. I could either get an extra feat by giving up stats (which I will then have to make up later by spending a feat slot to cap my stats) or I could get advantage on saves against poison, resistance to poison damage, extra critical damage, Reckless Endurance (which is probably the second best racial ability in the book honestly, behind Lucky).

Is Variant Human good? Sure. But seeing as you want your stats capped as soon as possible, and then you might want two or three feats to augment your power...it's really not sky blue. It's barely blue.

[Yoroichi]

I respect the Manliness of barbarian!

I'm starting my first 5e as a player next weekend, and we roll instead of pointbuy.


My dm watched me roll stats for our next campaign and just sweared when I told him I'm going barbarian instead of warlock.

He threw his hands up and went to help our cleric make their character sheet when I told him I am going to use a Portable Ram as my main weapon, and a Greataxe when I feel like it.


Sooooo.... following your colorful advice

Half-orc who refuses to wear a shirt.

str: 16+2 (because 18 easily becomes 20)
dex: 15 (for rolling around and looking cool while dodging fireblasts)
Con: 18+1 (for early con)
wis: 11 (because ...why not run in and smash things?)
Int: 13 (because we know a thing or two)
Cha: 14 (For scaring away ogres while flexing)


Totem Spirit(Bear)--I want to laugh at things that hit me

Aspect(Bear)--I dont need stealth bonuses, I want to break things and look buff doing it

Attunement(Wolf)--I want to knock things down for free. Then beat them up.


Feats:

4: Great Weapon
8: Sentinel
12: Tough
16: Con+Dex +1
19:str+2


I think this will make me Man enough to let Ogre clubs bounce off of my pectoral muscles while I laugh.

Grant me your suggestions, oh Enlightened one.

what should I do to be more man!?!?

Those are great rolls!!

I wouldnt pick up GFW so early, since it is kinda risky. you should wait for yours second attack at lvl5 before gfw, imo.

Also tough,i dont really like, it gives you 40hp at lvl 20, which is not a big deal, you might even benefit more from a dex increase for a +1 to AC,or a boost to your saves.

Personally i have picked up tavern brawler because it is so jard to use your bonus action as a totem barb,then again im going eagle on lvl14 so what do i know :)

I d recommend taking the lucky feat, i picked it up an d next session our DM banned it from play so im goona go with GFW now, lucky can help with GFW, with saves and with anything else you can think of

[Gwendol]

Tavern brawler is good for grappling, hence good for the barbarian.

[silveralen]

The benefits of these feats are not nearly as useful at level 1-3 before you get a feat at level 4. Taking -5 to attack rolls at that level is a good way to ensure you miss. Polearm master is nice sure, but I'd rather have..you know...features.

Let's compare: GWM is something you can get at any time. So is Polearm Master. In exchange for this, you give up +1 to Str and Con for a Mountain Dwarf, or +1 Str for a half-orc. So in essence, you're trading +1 to two stats for a feat...how is this a good thing? This is what you could do with the feat slot later anyway, but higher stats is just plain better early because it gives you more accuracy and more HP, period.

Not to mention, the racial features cannot be replicated by taking a feat. I could either get an extra feat by giving up stats (which I will then have to make up later by spending a feat slot to cap my stats) or I could get advantage on saves against poison, resistance to poison damage, extra critical damage, Reckless Endurance (which is probably the second best racial ability in the book honestly, behind Lucky).

Is Variant Human good? Sure. But seeing as you want your stats capped as soon as possible, and then you might want two or three feats to augment your power...it's really not sky blue. It's barely blue.

The problem is half orc and and mountain dwarf don't guarantee you a higher effective stat in your strength. If you use point buy or standard, and if you roll which is better depends entirely on if you roll even or odd. Plus, you trade one stat point now, rather than two later.

None of those racial features is very good. Resistance to poison damage is rolled into bear totem rage if you really need it, and redundant if you go that route. Advantage on poison saves... you have prof in con saves with a +2 at least, unless your DM has a hard on for poison using monsters, that's a horrible waste. Extra critical damage is strictly worse as a rider than the cleave portion of GWM. Reckless endurance.... you mean the thing you get at lvl 11 anyways, only restricted to once per long rest? Which is actually kinda funny, those "special" things that can't be replicated... are totally replicated by the class itself already, or shown up by feats.

Variant human does not slow down capping of your main stat at all for 2/3 forms of character creation, and only does 50% of the time for the third. So that's 5/6 times where a half orc or dwarf caps their strength at the same level as the human. It slows down capping your secondary stat... which isn't a problem. You probably aren't going to cap con. You probably shouldn't be trying to. There are a lot of better things to be doing with your ability increases than HP, the resilient feats or lucky being the biggest contenders even if you look at it from a pure defensive perspective.

Unless I roll stats and my highest is a 14, 16, or 18, I'm going human for barbarian. It's just hard to find anything that compares.

Now, if we were talking about a charisma or intelligence magic user? The value of feats go down, the usefulness of the racial abilities goes up. Half elf i amazing, and gnome has permanent advantage on saving throws versus magic Honestly, the last feature makes the race viable across a ton of combinations, even things like eldritch knight or arcane trickster. Dex based character? Lucky is a strong racial ability that's not even the majority of what halfing offers. The fact you put reckless endurance near that same level, when the hill dwarf's HP bonus results in a similar toughness increase, is truly odd to me.

There are races with really strong racial abilities. Those are not mountain dwarf or half orc. They are halfling and gnome.

[NeoSeraphi]

Reckless endurance.... you mean the thing you get at lvl 11 anyways, only restricted to once per long rest? Which is actually kinda funny, those "special" things that can't be replicated... are totally replicated by the class itself already, or shown up by feats.

Damn straight I mean that. I get it at level 11, which is HALFWAY THROUGH THE CLASS. If the game lasts that long!

I'd much rather not die once per day than get a feat 3 levels earlier.

[silveralen]

Damn straight I mean that. I get it at level 11, which is HALFWAY THROUGH THE CLASS. If the game lasts that long!

I'd much rather not die once per day than get a feat 3 levels earlier.

Really? Odd to say the least.

You trade a +10 damage and free attack on a crit, which only get better when you realize how constant advantage really benefits both aspects due to the lower cost of the attack penalty and higher chance of a crit, for the ability to take one extra hit, of one damage, per day?

Same with polearm master, you get a great extra reaction attack and an extra attack every round that benefit from your rage damage bonus and high strength, which beats occasionally taking a single extra hit to put down.

The best defense for barbarian is a good offense, and being able to put down enemies quickly and efficiently prevents the barbarian from getting into bad situations a lot of times. I've only seen the barbarian in my group drop twice, and it wouldn't have made any difference if he had reckless endurance, he was in situations where he was overwhelmed by enemies pretty heavily. Whereas, I've seen his extra damage and attacks from GWM really shift the way the battle goes, often ending the fight 1-2 turns before it normally would've, greatly increasing everyone's chance of survival. The chance of reckless endurance providing that sort of gain, when it is going to keep you upright an extra turn at best, is unlikely.

The class feature is much better, giving you 2-3 extra hits on average per short rest. That's a significant increase in longevity, reckless endurance is not.

It's a mediocre ability that becomes redundant by mid levels, those feats are useful at every single level. Not to mention, even if you want to build for survivability you'd be better grabbing resiellent (wis) to cover one of your bigger weaknesses.

I'm not saying someone shouldn't play a half Orc barbarian, but claiming it is the best choice optimization wise is wrong. At the very least the two choices are equally viable, and I'm inclined to think half Orc should not be sky blue.

[Mechaviking]

Also as I mentioned in another barbarian thread, the Polearm master feat basically gives you two versions out of 4 features of the berserker barbarian and you can get them at lvl 1 if your a human which is insane value.

I know this since I played a Nature cleric with Shillelagh and polearm master and I was doing comparable damage as a monk at early levels, which means it is INSANE for a Barbarian.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I'll echo the Polearm Master love. It is the best feat for damage in the game, especially once you start factoring in the (many) extra OAs as long as you position yourself right. My variant human fighter is loving it, and fighter isn't even as well suited to it as Paladin or Barbarian.

To be honest 5e shares a lot of qualities with 3e. One of these things is, if you want to be a real tank, you have to threaten a large area and have brutal OAs. Polearm Master + Sentinel: Accept no substitute. If you want at least one of these feats ASAP (and you do), Variant Human can actually cap out STR faster than anyone else, as implied by silveralen's analysis.

[NeoSeraphi]

I'm not convinced. I'll see if I can get some tabletop experience with Polearm Master, but I don't want to take GWM before 8, usually if ever. The only time I'd want to take GWM at 4th is if I rolled really high and I don't want it at 1st ever.

[silveralen]

I'm not convinced. I'll see if I can get some tabletop experience with Polearm Master, but I don't want to take GWM before 8, usually if ever. The only time I'd want to take GWM at 4th is if I rolled really high and I don't want it at 1st ever.

Wait, not take GWM as a barbarian? Ever? You always take it as barbarian. Unless you are shield user I suppose.

The thing is, you want it eventually, and human variant is actually the best way to get it by level 8 without delaying an ability increase.

Unless your highest roll is a 16 or 18, human variant maxes strength at the same moment a half Orc or Dwarf would. For point buy and standard array, a variant human never delays their main stat, only a secondary stat. The +2 isn't actually a boon to your main stat, what it offers is the ability to set you stat to 14 and bump to 16, freeing up points/higher bonuses for other stats. A half orc or mountain dwarf's strength is rarely going to beat a humans if both are properly optimized, but they likely have a higher con or dex.

Polearm master is a different story, being amazing from lvl 1 onward. You gain what amounts to duel wielding mechanically, plus a reaction attack that triggers fairly consistently. Plus, it can be later boosted by mixing it with GWM. Three attacks with a flat damage bonus of 20 each is a great start for damage (rage+strength+GWM) and constant advantage is what makes it work so well.

An optimized barbarian build that isn't beserker is likely going to include polearm and great weapon master eventually, and human variant is the best way to do so for 2/3 character generation method.

[NeoSeraphi]

Wait, not take GWM as a barbarian? Ever? You always take it as barbarian. Unless you are shield user I suppose.

The thing is, you want it eventually, and human variant is actually the best way to get it by level 8 without delaying an ability increase.

I said, I'll take it by 8, not usually by 4, and I'd never want it at 1.

Unless your highest roll is a 16 or 18, human variant maxes strength at the same moment a half Orc or Dwarf would. For point buy and standard array, a variant human never delays their main stat, only a secondary stat. The +2 isn't actually a boon to your main stat, what it offers is the ability to set you stat to 14 and bump to 16, freeing up points/higher bonuses for other stats. A half orc or mountain dwarf's strength is rarely going to beat a humans if both are properly optimized, but they likely have a higher con or dex.

Yes...and if you only want one or two feats, having the higher ability score is mechanically better. The advantage on saves against poison is very good. Yes, you should be able to make a save against poison, but not getting screwed by the dice is better than getting screwed by the dice, especially against an ability that is basically designed to kill characters.

And, I just heard back from a table that my friends are running. Two of their 4 players are now dead after their first encounter at level 2. Crits. That's why I value Reckless Endurance. Go ahead and keep theorycrafting, I'm speaking from experience. People die, both due to poor positioning and bad luck. Not dying because a DM rolled a 20 is much more valuable to me than Polearm Master. Can't get extra attacks if you're dead.

Polearm master is a different story, being amazing from lvl 1 onward. You gain what amounts to duel wielding mechanically, plus a reaction attack that triggers fairly consistently. Plus, it can be later boosted by mixing it with GWM. Three attacks with a flat damage bonus of 20 each is a great start for damage (rage+strength+GWM) and constant advantage is what makes it work so well.

Sure. But there's no problem delaying it until 4 either. You don't need the extra damage early, because encounters are based around you not having a feat, since most races don't have a feat. Defense is better than offense at the early levels, then offense eclipses it. There's no rush to get Polearm Master, and a dwarf or an orc will have higher Dex/Con than a variant human at later levels with the same feats. It's not worth it.

[silveralen]

Yes...and if you only want one or two feats, having the higher ability score is mechanically better. The advantage on saves against poison is very good. Yes, you should be able to make a save against poison, but not getting screwed by the dice is better than getting screwed by the dice, especially against an ability that is basically designed to kill characters.

And, I just heard back from a table that my friends are running. Two of their 4 players are now dead after their first encounter at level 2. Crits. That's why I value Reckless Endurance. Go ahead and keep theorycrafting, I'm speaking from experience. People die, both due to poor positioning and bad luck. Not dying because a DM rolled a 20 is much more valuable to me than Polearm Master. Can't get extra attacks if you're dead.

Sure. But there's no problem delaying it until 4 either. You don't need the extra damage early, because encounters are based around you not having a feat, since most races don't have a feat. Defense is better than offense at the early levels, then offense eclipses it. There's no rush to get Polearm Master, and a dwarf or an orc will have higher Dex/Con than a variant human at later levels with the same feats. It's not worth it.

I mean, let's look at it from "how often will this occur" stance. Feat I use every round in combat, advantage versus poison that might come up in one encounter per session if my DM really really really loves poison.

Reckless endurance wouldn't have helped unless the encounter ended the turn after the crits. They would've had one HP left. Anything would have knocked them down. That's why it's crap. Unless you mean the critical pushed them so far into negative HP they instantly died, in which case reckless endurance literally does nothing. It only helps if you aren't killed outright but are reduced to negative HP, ie prevents knockouts not death. Read the racial ability, if the crit dealt enough to outright kill them, they were still dead, and trotting around with one HP rarely helps at all.

Being able to kill an extra goblin per turn, or consistently kill a goblin every turn rather than one every other turn, cuts down on the damage your party takes dramatically. It ends combat entire rounds faster. That's a huge deal for survival, low lvl pcs cannot slug things out over multiple rounds.

No, the orc or dwarf actually has a lower/the same con/dex and the same feats at high levels, as the human only payed half an ability increase for his feat. Look at standard array.

Human
STR: 15+1=16
CON: 14+0=14
DEC: 13+1=14

H/Orc
STR: 14+2=16
CON: 15+1=16
DEX: 13+0=13

Eventually the human gets a +2 con and the half orc gets a feat, and the human has a higher dexterity.

With point buy, the difference is non existent at high levels... sort of

Human:
STR:15+1=16
CON: 15+1= 16
DEX: 14+0=14
INT: 8+0=8
WIS: 10+0=10
CHA: 8+0= 8

H/Orc:
STR:14+2=16
CON: 15+1= 16
DEX: 14+0=14
INT: 8+0=8
WIS: 12+0=12
CHA: 8+0= 8

In that case the human eventually bumps wisdom when the half orc takes, assuming its worth bumping wisdom. Which, given that feats are allowed, it probably isn't. The human can take resiellent wisdom instead as his last feat/ability score increase (or earlier if you prefer that to maxing con).

In fact, one has to question whether putting ability score increases in con or dex is ever worth it when feats exist. There are probably better usages, as two solid feats to boost offense, plus boosting an important save or two via the feat, plus maxing strength already stretches you pretty far.

[NeoSeraphi]

See, and that's the difference between you and me silva. You value feats in this edition, and I don't. I think the large majority of feats aren't worth taking, especially for non-casters, and I'd rather just pick up GWM and then bump all my stats to high heaven (maybe Sentinel or Mounted Combatant if I want, probably Skilled because it's nice).

If you think feats are good, then variant human is alright. I don't, and it's my guide. I value Reckless Endurance, poison resistance, and higher ability scores over feats.

[silveralen]

See, and that's the difference between you and me silva. You value feats in this edition, and I don't. I think the large majority of feats aren't worth taking, especially for non-casters, and I'd rather just pick up GWM and then bump all my stats to high heaven (maybe Sentinel or Mounted Combatant if I want, probably Skilled because it's nice).

If you think feats are good, then variant human is alright. I don't, and it's my guide. I value Reckless Endurance, poison resistance, and higher ability scores over feats.

Okay, that's fine and all, but this is an optimization guide. It isn't what you like, its what actually is good. You seem to have trouble comparing the value of certain abilities

Reckless endurance is a crappy ability. It will rarely if ever prevent someone from going down in a fight, it just gives them (maybe) a turn to do something, failing that it just allows them to force one enemy to waste an attack putting them down that normally would've been directed at a party member. If the DM is smart and someone has an AoE that deals damage even on a save, it won't even accomplish that much. It can do this once a day. It is unlikely to ever, in the entire campaign, actually make a noticeable difference in the outcome, mainly because it can't actually protect you from massive damage at low levels and save or die effects at high levels.

Whereas, a feat like resilient wisdom can turn a saving throw that succeeds 10% of the time to one that succeeds 30-40% of the time. Suddenly your barbarian isn't helpless if an enemy spellcaster has hold person prepared. God forbid you try to compare that feat to just increasing your wisdom score.

Remember talking about how you liked talking about advantage vs poisons? That's, at best, a 25% increase to one specific subset of constitution saves. Resilient is roughly that big an increase... for every single save for that attribute.

Feats are really strong, and you are heavily undervaluing them, while heavily over valuing very mediocre things like a 12 vs 10 wisdom or reckless endurance.

[NeoSeraphi]

Okay, that's fine and all, but this is an optimization guide. It isn't what you like, its what actually is good. You seem to have trouble comparing the value of certain abilities

Reckless endurance is a crappy ability. It will rarely if ever prevent someone from going down in a fight, it just gives them (maybe) a turn to do something, failing that it just allows them to force one enemy to waste an attack putting them down that normally would've been directed at a party member. It does that once a day. It is unlikely to ever, in the entire campaign, actually make a noticeable difference in the outcome.

Whereas, a feat like resilient wisdom can turn a saving throw that succeeds 10% of the time to one that succeeds 30-40% of the time. Suddenly your barbarian isn't helpless if an enemy spellcaster has hold person prepared. God forbid you try to compare that feat to just increasing your wisdom score.

Remember talking about how you liked talking about advantage vs poisons? That's, at best, a 25% increase to one specific subset of constitution saves. Resilient is roughly that big an increase... for every single save for that attribute.

Feats destroy racial abilities this edition. By a wide margin.

I'm giving the advice I think is important. This edition is brutal, especially early, and variant humans are weaker than dwarves or orcs early, while they average out to about the same mid-late.

The race is good. I gave it a blue rating. It's just not as good as half orcs or mountain dwarves, because they are harder to kill in the early game and have the same strong offense and defense later.

You think variant humans are good, and I agree for classes that need feats. Barbarians need stats. Variant humans have lower stats, particularly when you don't use point buy. If your highest roll is a 14, you want +2 to your Strength. If your highest roll is a 16 or 18, you still want a +2 to your Strength. You seem to be under the impression that point buy should be the standard set here. I am not under that impression because that's not what I see at my tables. Generally speaking, you have a better chance of rolling an even score than an odd score (8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18 is six chances, while 9, 11, 13, 15, 17 is only five). A +1 to two scores is worse than a +2 to two scores, or even a +2 to 1 and a +1 to the second. Period.

[Particle_Man]

For what it is worth, the OP has sold me on what I will play if I get a chance (I am DMing and having fun with that, but there is a 5e DM shortage in these parts, so playing ain't an option for me yet!).

I wanna try a half-orc barbarian berserker (only using the frenzy once per day max, and usually saving it for the "boss monster") outlander, so I can do "Barbarianish" stuff of super-crit and not dying right from level 1. If I used the standard array, I could get Str and Con up to 20 eventually, and then at 19th take Resilient (to bring dex up to 14, and also get proficiency in dex saves, which would make all my physical saves awesome!). No armor or shield, ever. Skills would include Intimidate (free), perception, stealth, althletics and survival. Extra language should be giant, because I like to shout! Greataxe and ready to go! A natural 20 on an attack roll will be glorious! Keth SMASH!

[NeoSeraphi]

For what it is worth, the OP has sold me on what I will play if I get a chance (I am DMing and having fun with that, but there is a 5e DM shortage in these parts, so playing ain't an option for me yet!).

I wanna try a half-orc barbarian berserker (only using the frenzy once per day max, and usually saving it for the "boss monster") outlander, so I can do "Barbarianish" stuff of super-crit and not dying right from level 1. If I used the standard array, I could get Str and Con up to 20 eventually, and then at 19th take Resilient (to bring dex up to 14, and also get proficiency in dex saves, which would make all my physical saves awesome!). No armor or shield, ever. Skills would include Intimidate (free), perception, stealth, althletics and survival. Extra language should be giant, because I like to shout! Greataxe and ready to go! A natural 20 on an attack roll will be glorious! Keth SMASH!

If you want to take Resilient (Dex) I suggest you take it earlier than 19th, as Dex saves are more relevant early when damage is much harder to deal with (especially since you aren't going bear totem). Maybe your 12th level feat? You'll get more enjoyment out of that proficiency the longer you have it.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Sure. But there's no problem delaying it until 4 either. You don't need the extra damage early, because encounters are based around you not having a feat, since most races don't have a feat. Defense is better than offense at the early levels, then offense eclipses it. There's no rush to get Polearm Master, and a dwarf or an orc will have higher Dex/Con than a variant human at later levels with the same feats. It's not worth it.

Killing your foes before they attack is pretty good defense. And "Oh, you don't need to take this optimal feat at level 1 because the DM won't throw mean scary monsters at you" is pretty much the antithesis of what I'd expect from an optimization thread. I've personally needed it at level 1, facing down a bunch of guards with no caster AoE to speak of. You don't even really need to experience it in play. Just note that you can trigger the OA by essentially spring attacking from a distance, and add in the extra damage from the inevitable OA and the bonus action attack. Compare that to the extra damage from, say, +2 STR. I already did.

I'll let silver speak for GWM, but for a STR-based meleer I would always get Polearm Master in exchange for a stat point and some crummy racial features.

[Mechaviking]

I also heard about a group running the first premade adventure path with a human variant fighter with GWM and he was wrecking so much face that the paladin was reduced to really high ac and 1 longsword attack each round.

Likewise from my own group a variant human with marksmanship is by far the most reliable source of damage in the group(and he´s a beastmaster ranger!).

Also getting something at lvl 1 which is normally available until lvl 4 is HUGE.

We can crunch the numbers later on(if you want), but I guess polearm barbarian is going to increase his lvl 1 damage by about 30% without the OA and 70% with it(yes it is that good).

[silveralen]

Killing your foes before they attack is pretty good defense. And "Oh, you don't need to take this optimal feat at level 1 because the DM won't throw mean scary monsters at you" is pretty much the antithesis of what I'd expect from an optimization thread. I've personally needed it at level 1, facing down a bunch of guards with no caster AoE to speak of. You don't even really need to experience it in play. Just note that you can trigger the OA by essentially spring attacking from a distance, and add in the extra damage from the inevitable OA and the bonus action attack. Compare that to the extra damage from, say, +2 STR. I already did.

I'll let silver speak for GWM, but for a STR-based meleer I would always get Polearm Master in exchange for a stat point and some crummy racial features.

If you plan to use polearms I certainly would as well. It's an excellent choice early on. It's really hard to argue with polearm master as the best way to play barbarian as well. The feat is just amazing at every level.

I'm giving the advice I think is important. This edition is brutal, especially early, and variant humans are weaker than dwarves or orcs early, while they average out to about the same mid-late.

The race is good. I gave it a blue rating. It's just not as good as half orcs or mountain dwarves, because they are harder to kill in the early game and have the same strong offense and defense later.

You think variant humans are good, and I agree for classes that need feats. Barbarians need stats. Variant humans have lower stats, particularly when you don't use point buy. If your highest roll is a 14, you want +2 to your Strength. If your highest roll is a 16 or 18, you still want a +2 to your Strength. You seem to be under the impression that point buy should be the standard set here. I am not under that impression because that's not what I see at my tables. Generally speaking, you have a better chance of rolling an even score than an odd score (8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18 is six chances, while 9, 11, 13, 15, 17 is only five). A +1 to two scores is worse than a +2 to two scores, or even a +2 to 1 and a +1 to the second. Period.

No, variant humans are far stronger early on. Heck, if you really wanna compare, a +1 to strength is 1 damage per hit and a 5% increased chance to hit. Polearm master is an extra chance to hit each turn with 1d4+3 damage. That's going to win on damage every single time, before we even factor in rage damage boost occuring twice, the fact you can gain advantage easily, and the reaction attack each round.

Low levels are brutal, but neither race helps much. It isn't like low levels are brutal due to poison, and I'm not going to type up again why half orcs endurance ability is so awful and unlikely to change anything. 1 HP or 1 AC isn't enough shift the flow of battle like 1-2 extra attacks every single round will.

Keep in mind, variant human can have a +2 to str or con if they choose.

If your highest roll on a 4d6 drop the lowest set is 15 or 17, variant human every single time. If it was 16 or 18, then you have to make a descion. Which is why I have trouble with the idea of half orc beating variant human, you need a specific roll to even consider taking anything else, and an 18 strength I could easily still see myself going variant human and waiting till lvl 4 to max it out, as polearm master helps more 1-4 than an extra +1 str mod.

I don't think you realize how game changing these feats are. Polearm master is a better version of the lvl 11 and lvl 3 abilities of frenzied beserker, that is how powerful feats are this edition. Variant human is always sky blue for any class this time, just like human has been for a while.

[NeoSeraphi]

Likewise from my own group a variant human with marksmanship is by far the most reliable source of damage in the group(and he´s a beastmaster ranger!).

Marksmanship isn't a feat...are you talking about Sharpshooter?

[Mechaviking]

Marksmanship isn't a feat...are you talking about Sharpshooter?

Duh! yes that :D AFB syndrome, sorry ;)

[odigity]

It seems like NeoSeraphi and silveralen aren't actually arguing about the value of Polearm Master, but rather the value of strong offense vs defense at early levels.

So, couldn't we resolve this by including both points of view in the guide, and then NeoSeraphi can add the opinion that defense is better early on, but if the reader disagrees, at least they know the best way to enhance offense?