[3.5 Base Class], [Mythos] "Make us Whole Again"

[Necroticplague]

I was thinking...

Due to many ways a Kreikiri can get a lot of graft points quickly, either through creating creatures from it, abusing regeneration, or just buying cows and stuff, they can create really powerful things.

Things that could be more powerful than mythic characters of the kreikiri's level at the time he is making the thing, why? I will explain in a bit.


My idea is that limiting what mutations and how many can be given by Kreikiri, using Kreikiri's level for purposes of creating such grafts or creatures with those? That is a nice idea, it makes sense. Mutations are powerful. However, you made it so they have access to all, even level-locked, stuff from Ozodrin. And Ozodrin's late-level augments for anything are... powerful, if I can say anything about it. Really powerful. As in, STUPIDLY powerful. But then, not being able to give a creature a sting attack or spike or flesh or such due to being level locked is also not fun

So here is what I suggest. Have Kreikiri access to all features, but have the level-lock of augments still apply. The basic augments that are provided without requiring a level, or if they require same level as the feature, are still okay to use at any time, even as Kreikiri is at level 1. That will allow for wide variety of creature while keeping them from being too powerful.

Technically, some augments can be allowed on case by case basis. The Engorged and Condensed Flesh, have that be allowed from start or lower level, but make it so that how many times a Kreikiri can give them, what size can they make the creature, is determined by Kreikiri's level in some way... Or just give free reign with it, as paying for stats and such will still take a lot of graft points and penalties can offset things, but yeah... Since I doubt Kreikiri would be unable to create smaller or bigger creatures. Maybe make these augments have different costs than the ones provided on ozodrin thread? Dunno.

Sounds like it's way complicating things. First off: what augments are game-breaking at low levels? Most of this stuff is fairly defensive or passive in nature.

2nd: off what about augments from PRCs if you have the relevant ability? How would you determine there total level requirement?

3rd: When mentioning balance, you're forgetting the vital aspect of time. An ozodrin can swiftly and freely move around there form points, while a kreikiri takes at least an hour to make any kind of changes, plus the possible multiple spent having to dissect the materials. Infinite graft points, in all cases, assume infinite time, something that's essentially never true.

4th. A kreikiri is also limited by the amount of graft points they can fit onto a graft. An ozodrin can dump half his points into being able to heal back to full every turn (at the cost of starving themselves to death). A kreikiri would be unable to do that, because the Heal check would be too high to reasonably implant.

[Yasahiro]

Sounds like it's way complicating things. First off: what augments are game-breaking at low levels? Most of this stuff is fairly defensive or passive in nature.

2nd: off what about augments from PRCs if you have the relevant ability? How would you determine there total level requirement?

3rd: When mentioning balance, you're forgetting the vital aspect of time. An ozodrin can swiftly and freely move around there form points, while a kreikiri takes at least an hour to make any kind of changes, plus the possible multiple spent having to dissect the materials. Infinite graft points, in all cases, assume infinite time, something that's essentially never true.

4th. A kreikiri is also limited by the amount of graft points they can fit onto a graft. An ozodrin can dump half his points into being able to heal back to full every turn (at the cost of starving themselves to death). A kreikiri would be unable to do that, because the Heal check would be too high to reasonably implant.

Except a Kreikiri can put as many points as he wants into creature. And symbiotic creature are possible, thus... Yup, it breaks it.

As for what are game-breaking at low levels... The Nth Dimensional Flesh? Reality Warping Flesh or Stomach? The gaze attacks?

[Necroticplague]

Except a Kreikiri can put as many points as he wants into creature. And symbiotic creature are possible, thus... Yup, it breaks it.

As for what are game-breaking at low levels... The Nth Dimensional Flesh? Reality Warping Flesh or Stomach? The gaze attacks?

Problem lies with Created Creatures, not the base grafting rules.Created creatures should have a Graft points/HD ratio cap. Not to mention that doing that gets very expensive, due to the multiplier for features on creatures

Reality Warping Flesh? You mean, the one that protects you from planar effects and AMFs? Things that are very rarely ever gonna come up in lower level campaigns?

Stomachs? Those things are just extradimensional spaces. You can't even cram foes in them unless you find some other way to Swallow Whole. What's overpowered about them? As for gaze attacks, you proposed change would still leave that firmly in place, you'd only have to wait for the stat damage ones.

[Yasahiro]

Problem lies with Created Creatures, not the base grafting rules.Created creatures should have a Graft points/HD ratio cap. Not to mention that doing that gets very expensive, due to the multiplier for features on creatures

Reality Warping Flesh? You mean, the one that protects you from planar effects and AMFs? Things that are very rarely ever gonna come up in lower level campaigns?

Stomachs? Those things are just extradimensional spaces. You can't even cram foes in them unless you find some other way to Swallow Whole. What's overpowered about them? As for gaze attacks, you proposed change would still leave that firmly in place, you'd only have to wait for the stat damage ones.

I will get back to you on that once I am more coherent.

Here is a question to ThreadNecro, would the Meat Suit, once you rework it, still allow for sharing of features and feats? I mean, it does occupy all magic item slots and all, so.. It would be fair, methinks.

[Quarian Rex]

ok, for ways to change Symbiotic Creature what if I change the price of the Universal Trait augment I added to three graft points (or four)? im thinking it should hep make a middle ground to the predatory/parasitic symbiont concept, and the choosing between empowering the host or symbiont viewpoint. it still costs a fair bit to make it almost as powerful both attached to a host and not, but it is more reasonably priced.

I'd say limit those traits to a maximum of what half your effective mutator level would let you get so you can pay once for up to half of the number of mutations you could gain then pay for the other half for when you're bonded.

I think Edro's idea here is pretty good. Makes it so that you can't have everything all the time but doesn't hurt the max capability of the favoured form.

As to the cost, jack it up. Remember, we're talking about creature creation here. The base costs of Mutations is 20 for the first, 30 for the second, 40 for the third, etc. Now since you are doing a scaling cost you can't just have a multiplier, but saying that the Universal trait costs an extra 20 graft points per would be pretty reasonable.

[Quarian Rex]

Except a Kreikiri can put as many points as he wants into creature. And symbiotic creature are possible, thus... Yup, it breaks it.

Remember that both these options have balance points though. For creature creation, the creature isn't you. It can turn on you, be dominated, subverted, etc. That is one of the main balance points of the class. As for symbionts, while they provide power to their hosts (like grafts) and do not require an implant check to be used (like creatures) they do have Ego. If you abuse the lack of implant check for creature creation to make an unbalanced symbiont you will also have to contend with continual battles of wills and 24hrs of watching an NPC play your character when you fail.

Nothing gets broken, there's just a different balance point.

[Quarian Rex]

PEACH conclusion...

Exalted Mythos

Critical Mass Expansion {Splintered}

This is a pretty solid ability. Just a couple of things...

Additionally you may now convert the bottommost layer of the ground that Web grows upon into more Web, effectively replacing it. This is done identically to any other way you can influence the material but cannot be reversed without magic such as a wish or miracle.

Specify exactly what the 'bottommost layer' is. 1 inch? 5 feet? Specify. Considering the level of this ability 5ft seems fine.

Basic Manifestations
Self is All Realization

This really seems like it should it's own Mythos, or even two. Maybe make a Legendary Mythos that lets you control up to your level in HD of created creatures and that's it. Then give the Exalted version as writen here with the sense-sharing and the 4x multiplier.

This ability is really such a game changer for the class that I think it should have some sense of progression, instead of just being a extra thrown under enhanced Meat Moss spread.

Flesh-Altering Monstrosity Masterpiece {Whole}

I like this ability but it is just so lacking for an Exalted Mythos. The problem here is that you are just adding free buffs onto a class that has been specializing in making custom buffs its entire career. If the Kreikiri wanted any of these abilities he would have had them far, far before this. The synergy effects you added for those with Living-World Shintai are where things actually get interesting. You need to widen the scope of this idea.

Shintai users should keep the benefits to their Fleshscapes, and keep the buffs for the individual manifestations, just have the full manifestation apply to every creature the Kreikiri has created, past, present, and future. Allow the Kreikiri to exclude creatures as a free action, even after creation (nothing says 'banishment' like losing the ability to fly when you're exiled).

This mythos would become about more than acquiring some stat mods, it would be about shaping a race/species/etc. Now that seems like an Exalted mythos.

The only other recomendation that I would make is to limit the number of Basic Manifestations that can be selected to 3 or 4. Make the Kreikiri decide what he wants the basic unifying features of all his work to be, rather than it just being about piling on a grab bag of free features.

I may come back to say something about the individual features at a future time.

From-a-Single-Cell Rebirth

This is actually just a really interesting capstone. Lets the character play around with setting up his own mythic death scene and such goodness.

[ThreadNecro5]

Here is a question to ThreadNecro, would the Meat Suit, once you rework it, still allow for sharing of features and feats? I mean, it does occupy all magic item slots and all, so.. It would be fair, methinks.

well using the suggested rewording (if I recall correctly) all symbiotic traits are shared, so that all the selected features, augments, and mutations. as for feats perhaps make it so that you gain the feats of the suit that you qualify for.

also posting both the the augment in the form of a Fantastic mythos (I am thinking making the Symbiotic Creature Feature available for free when purchasing Monster-Making Beast-Lord (Flesh-Altering Master)).

Spoiler

Show

Meat Suit Cost 30% the creatures total cost before taking into account this augment.

When a Symbiotic Creature attaches to a host of their size category or smaller, the symbiont fills all magic item slots on the host (the host is seen as being somehow enveloped by the symbiont, such as using it as a suit), taking a full-round action to attach or detach. While functioning as host, the host is more fully enhanced by the symbiont, with the following effects: Symbiotic Traits are applied to the host as normal, movement capabilities are identical to those of the symbiont, use the higher of the hosts or the symbionts Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution ability scores and Natural Armor bonus, and use the higher of the hosts or the Creatures BAB. The host also gains the traits (other than HD size, BAB, skill ranks, and saving throw progression) of the symbionts creature type if the Symbiont is at least one size larger than the host, and any feats the symbiont possesses which the host qualifies for (after taking into account the modifiers form the Meat Suit, and ignoring ‘must be taken at 1st level’ prerequisites).

As long as the symbiont has 1 or more hit points, the host is protected from harm. Damage in excess of that which would reduce the host to less than 1 hit point is instead transferred to the symbiont. This damage is transferred 1 point at a time, meaning that as soon as the symbiont is reduced to a number of hit points capable of killing it, all excess damage remains with the host. Effects that cause death but not damage are unaffected by this ability.
These additional shared qualities increase the Symbionts Ego score by 6 (in addition to Ego from Symbiotic Traits, ability bonuses, etc.). When in control the Symbiont may freely use the hosts class features and feats, etc., sharing uses per day.

Should the host be Dominated, Charmed, Confused, or otherwise mentally incapacitated the Kreikiri can make an additional Will save versus the effect (even if such a thing would normally be denied) to allow the Meat Suit to take over. The control duration is as per normal (24 hours) and so this is usually only done as an act of last resort.

also for the epic level prestege class as a mythos what does everyone think about one that removes the need to make a heal check for creating grafts and creatures of a leveled points cost or less.

and in reply to Quarian Rex's PEACH conclusion:

Specify exactly what the 'bottommost layer' is. 1 inch? 5 feet? Specify. Considering the level of this ability 5ft seems fine.

will specify as 5ft

This really seems like it should it's own Mythos, or even two. Maybe make a Legendary Mythos that lets you control up to your level in HD of created creatures and that's it. Then give the Exalted version as writen here with the sense-sharing and the 4x multiplier.

This ability is really such a game changer for the class that I think it should have some sense of progression, instead of just being a extra thrown under enhanced Meat Moss spread.

ok, will turn into two mythos. the fact I personal think more Exaulted mythos were needed only makeis this a better idea.

I like this ability but it is just so lacking for an Exalted Mythos. The problem here is that you are just adding free buffs onto a class that has been specializing in making custom buffs its entire career. If the Kreikiri wanted any of these abilities he would have had them far, far before this. The synergy effects you added for those with Living-World Shintai are where things actually get interesting. You need to widen the scope of this idea.

Shintai users should keep the benefits to their Fleshscapes, and keep the buffs for the individual manifestations, just have the full manifestation apply to every creature the Kreikiri has created, past, present, and future. Allow the Kreikiri to exclude creatures as a free action, even after creation (nothing says 'banishment' like losing the ability to fly when you're exiled).

nice idea

This mythos would become about more than acquiring some stat mods, it would be about shaping a race/species/etc. Now that seems like an Exalted mythos.

The only other recomendation that I would make is to limit the number of Basic Manifestations that can be selected to 3 or 4. Make the Kreikiri decide what he wants the basic unifying features of all his work to be, rather than it just being about piling on a grab bag of free features.

I may come back to say something about the individual features at a future time.

ok, I agree with this, but the manifestation limitation would have to be removed in the epic level prestige class as the elemental themed manifestations are foreshadowing to an ability of that class (specifically invading the Planes with your Fleshscape)

This is actually just a really interesting capstone. Lets the character play around with setting up his own mythic death scene and such goodness.

I am honestly surprised you like this one, but that might be personal bias from the origin of the mythos. you see I was struggling with mythos ideas (I had ran out) and so this was basically an 'excuse mythos', but it seems it was better than I thought.

[EdroGrimshell]

I should note something, it might be a good idea to make two Shintai Mythos. Xefas has more than one for Olethrofex (only one is complete though). Maybe one for Shattered and one for Whole?

[Yasahiro]

I assume that when covered by Meat Suit, the host can still use their own movement types? I mean, if the symbiont has high land speed but the host has a Mythos or anything that allows them to have fly speed equal to land speed, they use symbiont's land speed?


Is there any sharing of class features if the symbiont has such? We have to remember that this essentially takes away all magic item slots... Maybe grafts too, as we are covered by this meat suit. Does it suppress host's grafts? Can they use grafts that the symbiont possesses? Anyway, it takes these away while also limiting actions to equivalent of what one character has in a round. Which is further limiting if the Kreikiri relies on grafts.

Also, nothing stops Kreikiri from making the symbiont just... Want to be used, controlled. Personality, eh?

So something could be done about it... Maybe as a manifestation, to improve the meat suit further. Like I said, it takes away all magic item slots, which means it takes away other regular symbionts, and it also, if I understand right, hides already existing grafts the person has, which for Kreikiri would be bad if it has the Protean mythos, as I believe they would rely on grafts too.

Now, can anyone tell me what action it is for symbiont to attach to a person? Is there any sort of ability damage like regular symbionts? Actually, that might work. As it would allow for a penalty or such when symbiont is attached or deattached. The attachment is a shock to the body, while the detachment is like withdrawal. Like Symbiote from Spiderman, and how Eddie Brock and others acted without it. I believe in the 1990s cartoon, Spider-man lost his Spider-sense for a bit once he got rid of the black suit.

I should note something, it might be a good idea to make two Shintai Mythos. Xefas has more than one for Olethrofex (only one is complete though). Maybe one for Shattered and one for Whole?

That would make sense. While Whole Shintai focuses on spreading one's flesh... The Shattered Shintai could be about ceasing to exist other than as a hive mind, maybe?

Edit: So are we essentially Errataing out the very existence of Symbiosis and Parasitism mutations? I mean, Symbiosis is like a way more powerful meat suit with less limitations and more actions. Even Draken said it was too strong, I believe.

[Necroticplague]

Um, one part of Creeping-Flesh fortress is confusing me:

• The Web may grow 1 inch in thickness. That volume of web may be constructed in any immobile shape as long as it fits within the confines of a 5x5x5 area or smaller. The largest any use of this could make the Web is a single solid 5ft (60 inch) cube. Any continued use of this would instead result in the Web continuing on to fill a new 5x5x5 space. Examples of a single use of this are constructing a 5'x5' wall that is one inch thick, ceilings, bridges, ladders, chairs, and such. Additional uses can strengthen (thicken) existing structures or create new ones.

The bolded part seems to contradict the italicized part. There's no amount of mental gymnastics that says a 5" cube is one in of thickness increase.

Edit: So are we essentially Errataing out the very existence of Symbiosis and Parasitism mutations? I mean, Symbiosis is like a way more powerful meat suit with less limitations and more actions. Even Draken said it was too strong, I believe.

I get why Symbiosis is way t0o strong, but what's wrong with Parasitism? The only people you can affect with it are ones you could more easily kill, you lose access to pretty much all of your own abilities (unless you take Extrude, and even then you don't get any more powerful from it).

[Yasahiro]

Um, one part of Creeping-Flesh fortress is confusing me:

The bolded part seems to contradict the italicized part. There's no amount of mental gymnastics that says a 5" cube is one in of thickness increase.

Except you forgot about one part:

You can influence the Webs growth by spending a minute in concentration and choosing one of the following options:

It is supposed to mean that you can choose to omit certain areas in the space to grow. Like, you can create flesh stalagmite by reducing radius with each thought. What it means that one space of Web cannot grow beyond five feet by five feet by five feet. As in, that is the max that the web in that space can ever grow to be. You can't have 10 foot high rectangle of flesh in one space, no matter how much you try.


As for info for Threadnecro:

Just make the hyperlink for Exalted Mythos be...

Exalted Mythos

Don't say where it is and all, just have these two words be the Hyperlink and don't add nothing else. Similarly, no need to say "Kreikiri [Tier] Mythos". We know these are Kreikiri Mythos, this is Kreikiri topic.

[Necroticplague]

Except you forgot about one part:



It is supposed to mean that you can choose to omit certain areas in the space to grow. Like, you can create flesh stalagmite by reducing radius with each thought. What it means that one space of Web cannot grow beyond five feet by five feet by five feet. As in, that is the max that the web in that space can ever grow to be. You can't have 10 foot high rectangle of flesh in one space, no matter how much you try.

Ah. That's....kinda redundant, given how how the very space rules of DnD already disallow that.

[Yasahiro]

Ah. That's....kinda redundant, given how how the very space rules of DnD already disallow that.

They way I understand it, it also does one dumby thing.

It makes it so that you can't have super tall pillars of Flesh, as nothing grown from one patch of Web can go beyond confines of 5ft x 5ft x 5ft cube. And if I understand it right, you can't have another patch of it grown on top of the thing, so... Huh.

So to have super high flesh structures, you need to have an already build chassis, stick, whatever. Then I believe you could grow flesh over it and increase its thickness till you have it look like cubes or whatever shape you want on top of it.

[Quarian Rex]

Um, one part of Creeping-Flesh fortress is confusing me:

• The Web may grow 1 inch in thickness. That volume of web may be constructed in any immobile shape as long as it fits within the confines of a 5x5x5 area or smaller. The largest any use of this could make the Web is a single solid 5ft (60 inch) cube. Any continued use of this would instead result in the Web continuing on to fill a new 5x5x5 space. Examples of a single use of this are constructing a 5'x5' wall that is one inch thick, ceilings, bridges, ladders, chairs, and such. Additional uses can strengthen (thicken) existing structures or create new ones.

The bolded part seems to contradict the italicized part. There's no amount of mental gymnastics that says a 5" cube is one in of thickness increase.

It means that concentration can add a 1 inch by 5ft by 5ft volume of material shaped however you want so long as if fits into a given 5ft x 5ft x 5ft cube. It's just saying how much fleshy play-doh you have to mess with at a time. This is also to give you a baseline for the sturdiness of any constructions (he used two uses of growth to make the chair so it has 20hps...).

The largest any use of this could make the Web is a single solid 5ft (60 inch) cube.

This is the max after multiple uses, to prevent someone from making a wall with 10,000hp or somesuch. You can normally only 'thicken' (regardless of what form you twist the play-doh into) a given spot 59 times (for a total of 60 inches, a.k.a. 5ft, of thickness) before you just have a solid block of Meat Moss. It was not implying that you go from 1 inch to 5ft in a single use.

They way I understand it, it also does one dumby thing.

It makes it so that you can't have super tall pillars of Flesh, as nothing grown from one patch of Web can go beyond confines of 5ft x 5ft x 5ft cube. And if I understand it right, you can't have another patch of it grown on top of the thing, so... Huh.

Not so good sir. Behold...

Any continued use of this would instead result in the Web continuing on to fill a new 5x5x5 space.

Build as high as you want. It's just that every 5ft section requires a seperate effect. Since you can effect a number of 5ft sections equal to your Kreikiri level with each min. of concentration there is very little limitation to any would-be flesh architects out there.

[Quarian Rex]

I am thinking making the Symbiotic Creature Feature available for free when purchasing Monster-Making Beast-Lord (Flesh-Altering Master)

I urge thee nay good sir. The options available with symbionts are far reaching enough that I really do think that they should be a seperate paid manifestation.

Meat Suit 30% the creatures total cost before taking into account this augment.

When a Symbiotic Creature attaches to a host of their size category or smaller, the symbiont fills all magic item slots on the host (the host is seen as being somehow enveloped by the symbiont, such as using it as a suit), taking a full-round action to attach or detach. While functioning as host, the host is more fully enhanced by the symbiont, with the following effects: Symbiotic Traits are applied to the host as normal, movement capabilities are identical to those of the symbiont, use the higher of the hosts or the symbionts Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution ability scores and Natural Armor bonus, and use the higher of the hosts or the Creatures BAB. The host also gains the traits (other than HD size, BAB, skill ranks, and saving throw progression) of the symbionts creature type if the Symbiont is at least one size larger than the host, and any feats the symbiont possesses which the host qualifies for (after taking into account the modifiers form the Meat Suit, and ignoring ‘must be taken at 1st level’ prerequisites).

As long as the symbiont has 1 or more hit points, the host is protected from harm. Damage in excess of that which would reduce the host to less than 1 hit point is instead transferred to the symbiont. This damage is transferred 1 point at a time, meaning that as soon as the symbiont is reduced to a number of hit points capable of killing it, all excess damage remains with the host. Effects that cause death but not damage are unaffected by this ability.

These additional shared qualities increase the Symbionts Ego score by 6 (in addition to Ego from Symbiotic Traits, ability bonuses, etc.). When in control the Symbiont may freely use the hosts class features and feats, etc., sharing uses per day. Also, when the Sumbiont is in control it can attack the host (using any means available to it) without having the damage transfer to itself should this lower the host to below 1 hit point. This is the only time that the damage transfer can be negated.

Should the host be Dominated, Charmed, Confused, or otherwise mentally incapacitated the Kreikiri can make an additional Will save versus the effect (even if such a thing would normally be denied) to allow the Meat Suit to take over. The control duration is as per normal (24 hours) and so this is usually only done as an act of last resort.

Remove the first bolded part about movement capabilities for the reasons given here (the part at the bottom) and add the second bolded part to enable the oh-so popular predatory symbiont option.

I am honestly surprised you like this one, but that might be personal bias from the origin of the mythos. you see I was struggling with mythos ideas (I had ran out) and so this was basically an 'excuse mythos', but it seems it was better than I thought.

You know, I actually got the 'excuse mythos' angle, I just think that it kind of works. That's probably just due to how I see all capstone abilities (and I lump Exalted mythos under that heading as well) as fun freebie abilities that have little consequence on the rest of the class. So few games actually get to that level (in my experience) that I think it's appropriate to have a little fun.

In this case, the real survivability mythos is Disassociated Undying-Flesh. It's the one that essentially turns you into a Flesh-Lich and virtually impossible to completely kill. If at the end of a game that actually gets to Exalted someone wants to throw a little salt on the wounds of anyone trying to finish them off with an overly complicated death scenario, I say go nuts!

[ThreadNecro5]

I should note something, it might be a good idea to make two Shintai Mythos. Xefas has more than one for Olethrofex (only one is complete though). Maybe one for Shattered and one for Whole?

I will think about this. oddly enough between this idea and the symbiont stuff some edited out features are being re-added to the class.

and in reply to Yasahiro:
[quote]Also, nothing stops Kreikiri from making the symbiont just... Want to be used, controlled. Personality, eh?[quote]

well in terms of the basic personality creation nothing exactly stops this, but without a method of control or establishing loyalty there is just that, the basic personality. if it is intelligent what stops it form deciding it would rather do its own thing as it mentally continues to develop on its own? these are separate independent creatures after all so they can just get board/lost/drunk and wander off. as for unintelligent ones it can simply leave as it is likely often lead to dangerous surroundings, and so figure out following its creator may not be best for personal safety.

Is there any sharing of class features if the symbiont has such? We have to remember that this essentially takes away all magic item slots... Maybe grafts too, as we are covered by this meat suit. Does it suppress host's grafts? Can they use grafts that the symbiont possesses? Anyway, it takes these away while also limiting actions to equivalent of what one character has in a round. Which is further limiting if the Kreikiri relies on grafts.

So something could be done about it... Maybe as a manifestation, to improve the meat suit further. Like I said, it takes away all magic item slots, which means it takes away other regular symbionts, and it also, if I understand right, hides already existing grafts the person has, which for Kreikiri would be bad if it has the Protean mythos, as I believe they would rely on grafts too.

I can work on manifestations, perhaps one for sharing class features, and another for sharing grafts?

Now, can anyone tell me what action it is for symbiont to attach to a person? Is there any sort of ability damage like regular symbionts? Actually, that might work. As it would allow for a penalty or such when symbiont is attached or deattached. The attachment is a shock to the body, while the detachment is like withdrawal. Like Symbiote from Spiderman, and how Eddie Brock and others acted without it. I believe in the 1990s cartoon, Spider-man lost his Spider-sense for a bit once he got rid of the black suit.

I believe I added specific rules in the latest alteration to the Feature. as for weather to have ability damage, I am not sure as it may hamper the flexibility of the symbiont options.

[Necroticplague]

My two cents on ability damage: Not all symbionts have that. If you want that, that sounds perfectly valid as a drawback, invoking the grafting clause (which the creature making mythos inherits) about being able to give them drawbacks to reduce the cost. No need to add it to all symbiotic creatures.

[Yasahiro]

*Has a crazy idea*

Hear me out, people.

Grafts in a liquid form, as a potion or something. Would require the heal or alchemy check when creating it to make sure it works properly, with negative consequences if done wrong, or just having it not work, but otherwise there will be no later check required to use it to induce the features or such in the person. Could be limited to altering existing features or possibly granting new, unless you think removing some would work fine as well. Might require fortitude save or such by the person to be able to handle it, or perhaps to stay conscious. The change would happen over a time period, depending on amount of graft points used for the thing.


It still counts for the limit of how many grafts a person can have. Removing it would require creation of some special anti-said graft juice, maybe?

I mean, have the Nectrotic Juice outbreak plague mythos possible, so why not this?

[ThreadNecro5]

*Has a crazy idea*

Hear me out, people.

Grafts in a liquid form, as a potion or something. Would require the heal or alchemy check when creating it to make sure it works properly, with negative consequences if done wrong, or just having it not work, but otherwise there will be no later check required to use it to induce the features or such in the person. Could be limited to altering existing features or possibly granting new, unless you think removing some would work fine as well. Might require fortitude save or such by the person to be able to handle it, or perhaps to stay conscious. The change would happen over a time period, depending on amount of graft points used for the thing.


It still counts for the limit of how many grafts a person can have. Removing it would require creation of some special anti-said graft juice, maybe?

I mean, have the Nectrotic Juice outbreak plague mythos possible, so why not this?

while an interesting idea, i'm not particularly fond of it. also it is somewhat stepping away from the 'feel' of the class I think.

also, to anyone who is reading this, does this seem like suitable wording for the Exalted Mythos Manifestation that is becoming a Mythos in itself.

Exalted
Self is All Realization
Perquisites: Unnamed Legendary Mythos

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When using the ‘Unnamed Legendary Mythos’ mythos the total HD of Creatures you may control increases to 4x your Kreikiri level + any mythos advancing prestige classes you possess. You may select prior created creatures to immediately take control of using your new HD limit as per when gaining ‘Unnamed Legendary Mythos‘

Legendary
Name
Perquisites: -

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You may now gain mental control over some of your Created Creatures. You may select a number of hit dice of such Creatures (upon gaining this mythos you can select from any Creatures you have created) equal to your Kreikiri level + any mythos advancing prestige classes you possess. The creatures you control have their senses permanently linked to you while controlled and constantly follow your exact desires and intentions as you choose. Upon creating a creature you may choose to make them among the creatures you are in total control of, with excess HD becoming uncontrolled and behaving as normal for them.

The problem is that I cannot think of a name for the Legendary Myhtos.

[Yasahiro]

while an interesting idea, i'm not particularly fond of it. also it is somewhat stepping away from the 'feel' of the class I think.

also, to anyone who is reading this, does this seem like suitable wording for the Exalted Mythos Manifestation that is becoming a Mythos in itself.

Exalted
Self is All Realization
Perquisites: Unnamed Legendary Mythos

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When using the ‘Unnamed Legendary Mythos’ mythos the total HD of Creatures you may control increases to 4x your Kreikiri level + any mythos advancing prestige classes you possess. You may select prior created creatures to immediately take control of using your new HD limit as per when gaining ‘Unnamed Legendary Mythos‘

Legendary
Name
Perquisites: -

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You may now gain mental control over some of your Created Creatures. You may select a number of hit dice of such Creatures (upon gaining this mythos you can select from any Creatures you have created) equal to your Kreikiri level + any mythos advancing prestige classes you possess. The creatures you control have their senses permanently linked to you while controlled and constantly follow your exact desires and intentions as you choose. Upon creating a creature you may choose to make them among the creatures you are in total control of, with excess HD becoming uncontrolled and behaving as normal for them.

The problem is that I cannot think of a name for the Legendary Myhtos.

I think what you consider the Exalted Mythos would work better as a manifestation of the Legendary one, with it requiring you to be at the Exalted Tier or such. Alternatively, the Legendary can have the creatures still use a save to somehow fight off or delay the control if they are unwilling.

And as for you saying it is stepping away from the feel of the class... It's essentially the Necrotic Juice, distilled into granting specific stuff. It's basically creating a vaccine or cure for the disease that has plagued us all this time. That disease is the imperfection of our bodies

[Quarian Rex]

The problem is that I cannot think of a name for the Legendary Myhtos.

How about something like Sacrificial Loyalty Awakening? Tis snappy, does what it says on the tin, and is less cool sounding than it's Exalted counterpart (a crucial factor to consider).

... to anyone who is reading this, does this seem like suitable wording for the Exalted Mythos Manifestation that is becoming a Mythos in itself.

Wording is pretty good. I just have two suggestions. First, move the sense linking to Self is All Realization. Gaining perfect control, even over so few creatures, is a tempting and valid option for Legendary. It really doesn't need anything else. Exalted is something else. These are your capstones and they need a little more 'oomph'. Quadrupling the HD limit and adding sense linking seems more worthy of this tier. That and it just seems more approptiate with a name like Self is All Realization.

The other thing is to spell out the mechanics of the sense linking. Is it two-way? Can the Kreikiri shut it off? Does it work across planes? These are all things that are not addressed. I would suggest that you specify that it is an [Ex] ability to share physical senses between master and creature that functions across planar boundaries. Say that the degree of sense sharing (number of senses, one-way vs. two-way, etc.) can be modified by the Kreikiri as a free action. Even when the sense-sharing is otherwise disabled the Kreikiri is still subconsciously aware of his controlled creatures such that he knows if they speak his name or are in pain. Such sense-sharing can never result in the transmission of effects or conditions from one person to another. For example, a minion Blinded by a spell or being tortured by an enemy would not result in the Kreikiri being blinded or debilitated by pain in any way, even though he would be aware of exactly what was happening, in exquisite detail.

I was going to offer some suggested wording but I'm dead tired right now and my brain is mush. Hope this helps.

[ThreadNecro5]

ok, I am back and working on improving the two mythos.

also I cant remember, did we eventually decide the symbiont stuff was good to go, or if not what alterations were recommended? doing a VtR campaign has taken up a fair bit of my time.

[EdroGrimshell]

You know, I really think there should be more medical mythos in there outside of grafts and creature creation. Making the Kreikiri the Mythic Healer seems like it'd make sense given they already are to an extent.

As it stands they have Shattered (taking pieces from creatures and manipulating them) and Whole (stealing the shards and gathering them within yourself), but what about one that focuses on repairing the shards of the kyniteros in others as another possible focus? Maybe using it as a way of suppressing it so that they can't use it against you. Seems like it'd be a fun idea and it lets you play a Mythic Healer without going Mythic Priest.

[Yasahiro]

You know, I really think there should be more medical mythos in there outside of grafts and creature creation. Making the Kreikiri the Mythic Healer seems like it'd make sense given they already are to an extent.

As it stands they have Shattered (taking pieces from creatures and manipulating them) and Whole (stealing the shards and gathering them within yourself), but what about one that focuses on repairing the shards of the kyniteros in others as another possible focus? Maybe using it as a way of suppressing it so that they can't use it against you. Seems like it'd be a fun idea and it lets you play a Mythic Healer without going Mythic Priest.

Technically, the Healer or rather, a Doctor, would fit the liquid to "cure" people of their normalness. Cures can be created and distributed easily usually and all... It would basically be Necrotic Juice mythos without it being necrotic and requiring it to have selected changes beforehand. It could potentially also be a way to over time weaken someone, have it turn them into something weak if they fail the saves. No? Anyone?

Another idea I have is if a creature is to have multiple forms, like with the reproduction excellency. Except how about creating a creature in its child state and having the selection of future features be locked in, requiring the creature to either have or giving it a way to harvest graft points and accumulate as many as creating the next form would have taken, without being able to use the points for something else? Possibly, it could also give a method of granting choice of other forms, along with some special conditions for it to happen. It's like... hidden potential of all these creatures, since either they can't turn into adult form or it is just something like special progression. Something amazing. In a way, it would be same way as to how Titans had their Child, Adult and Elder stages, yet only one managed to become an Elder... although age could also matter as the titans were killed...

You know what I mean, though? It's essentially like Man-is-monster restoration, except the cost is not reduced but the creature does not need a Kreikiri(unless it is one of added conditions) to achieve full power/evolve, it only needs to harvest the amount of graft points.


In a way, both the "Cure" and the "Earn the full form" things fit with awakening fragments of Kyniteros in others, or just giving them a chance to do it.

Edit:

So I talked to Edro and here are the thoughts:

Cure/Liquid Form: Creation of graft as usual with a possible check on top of it to turn it into that form. Upon being ingested or injected into a person, they must pass Fortitude checks over some time, or they get ability damage or regular damage dependant on complexity of graft.

Evolution & Graft Point harvesting: Turn the Excellency that grants ability to harvest graft points into an Excellency that allows Kreikiri to give creatures ability to harvest graft points, just like those with Necrotic Meat Mutation, for a graft point cost. This will allow Kreikiri to have creatures that get graft points for him possibly. The Advancement of the creature into an "advanced" form thanks to graft points would be easily done, just have a small cost by Kreikiri in order to give the created creature such option, with making it possible to add some special requirements to cause the advancement.

Mythic Carnivore: Creatures that are "Harvesters" get access to special Mythic Racial feat, just like the Mythic SOLDIER and Mythic Foulspawn, except this is kinda Kreikiri's version of it. These feat would allow creature to turn graft points into mythic points to buy Mythos with, at a higher loss than a Kreikiri usually gets when releasing a creature, unless the creature already has a mythos granting class, in which case they can but the mythos regular way. The feat or even the mythos would focus on using graft points to heal or even do alterations to one's body, with the other mythos focusing on something based off Necrotic Meat Mutation and the advancement as I mentioned. It still needs FLESHING out but I am willing to write this Mythic Racial feat if you do the change to the harvesting excellency as I mentioned in the thing above this.

[ThreadNecro5]

Technically, the Healer or rather, a Doctor, would fit the liquid to "cure" people of their normalness. Cures can be created and distributed easily usually and all... It would basically be Necrotic Juice mythos without it being necrotic and requiring it to have selected changes beforehand. It could potentially also be a way to over time weaken someone, have it turn them into something weak if they fail the saves. No? Anyone?

Another idea I have is if a creature is to have multiple forms, like with the reproduction excellency. Except how about creating a creature in its child state and having the selection of future features be locked in, requiring the creature to either have or giving it a way to harvest graft points and accumulate as many as creating the next form would have taken, without being able to use the points for something else? Possibly, it could also give a method of granting choice of other forms, along with some special conditions for it to happen. It's like... hidden potential of all these creatures, since either they can't turn into adult form or it is just something like special progression. Something amazing. In a way, it would be same way as to how Titans had their Child, Adult and Elder stages, yet only one managed to become an Elder... although age could also matter as the titans were killed...

You know what I mean, though? It's essentially like Man-is-monster restoration, except the cost is not reduced but the creature does not need a Kreikiri(unless it is one of added conditions) to achieve full power/evolve, it only needs to harvest the amount of graft points.

In a way, both the "Cure" and the "Earn the full form" things fit with awakening fragments of Kyniteros in others, or just giving them a chance to do it.

I think I may be able to make an interesting mythos out of the ideas here, will try and make the 1st draft tonight.

Cure/Liquid Form: Creation of graft as usual with a possible check on top of it to turn it into that form. Upon being ingested or injected into a person, they must pass Fortitude checks over some time, or they get ability damage or regular damage dependent on complexity of graft.

can make this work.

Evolution & Graft Point harvesting: Turn the Excellency that grants ability to harvest graft points into an Excellency that allows Kreikiri to give creatures ability to harvest graft points, just like those with Necrotic Meat Mutation, for a graft point cost. This will allow Kreikiri to have creatures that get graft points for him possibly. The Advancement of the creature into an "advanced" form thanks to graft points would be easily done, just have a small cost by Kreikiri in order to give the created creature such option, with making it possible to add some special requirements to cause the advancement.

I have a few ideas I can work with for this. seems like it could be a fun option.

Mythic Carnivore: Creatures that are "Harvesters" get access to special Mythic Racial feat, just like the Mythic SOLDIER and Mythic Foulspawn, except this is kinda Kreikiri's version of it. These feat would allow creature to turn graft points into mythic points to buy Mythos with, at a higher loss than a Kreikiri usually gets when releasing a creature, unless the creature already has a mythos granting class, in which case they can but the mythos regular way. The feat or even the mythos would focus on using graft points to heal or even do alterations to one's body, with the other mythos focusing on something based off Necrotic Meat Mutation and the advancement as I mentioned. It still needs FLESHING out but I am willing to write this Mythic Racial feat if you do the change to the harvesting excellency as I mentioned in the thing above this.

I like this idea, plus I have been wanting to try writing a Mythic ghoul but just never thought of good mythos ideas, but I can combine that idea with this. I will get around to this idea. from a fluff point of view, perhaps making it's myhtos derive from the Kyniteros's heart, or perhaps a last echo of a Titan of willpower consumed by the Kyniteros (and thus creating Mythosof will filtered through a desire to grow and consume).

[Yasahiro]

I like this idea, plus I have been wanting to try writing a Mythic ghoul but just never thought of good mythos ideas, but I can combine that idea with this. I will get around to this idea. from a fluff point of view, perhaps making it's myhtos derive from the Kyniteros's heart, or perhaps a last echo of a Titan of willpower consumed by the Kyniteros (and thus creating Mythosof will filtered through a desire to grow and consume).

Technically when you look at it in a way, those that have future forms set by Kreikiri can have the children start at the first form... And in a way, this is difference between Mythic Harvester and regular one. Regular one is just a creature that requires Graft Points to advance to a pre-chosen by Kreikiri form, or to a choice of forms that it was offered... and can gather graft points. Mythic Harvester can "design" its own evolutions and "grafts" and all.

And "consume" can be fluffed in many ways. If you are partly made of slime or are some weird creature like in Prototype, you can slowly incorporate it into yourself instead of shoveling it into your maw. Yay

Edit: Like I said, I am interested in making that Mythic Harvester. How about we work together on it, eh?

Edit: Can Kreikiri add specific weaknesses to its creatures? Like sunlight vulnerability of vampires or such? Hidden measures for easy-kill, unless it somehow made itself immune?(Which would be part of the Mythic Harvester, abandon previous limitations, enforced instincts granted by Kreikiri, etc.)

[ThreadNecro5]

Technically when you look at it in a way, those that have future forms set by Kreikiri can have the children start at the first form... And in a way, this is difference between Mythic Harvester and regular one. Regular one is just a creature that requires Graft Points to advance to a pre-chosen by Kreikiri form, or to a choice of forms that it was offered... and can gather graft points. Mythic Harvester can "design" its own evolutions and "grafts" and all.

And "consume" can be fluffed in many ways. If you are partly made of slime or are some weird creature like in Prototype, you can slowly incorporate it into yourself instead of shoveling it into your maw. Yay

this all looks like a good idea for it (assuming you are referring to the mythic devourer idea).

Edit: Like I said, I am interested in making that Mythic Harvester. How about we work together on it, eh?

sounds like a plan. to begin with I would suggest we do some fluff first, the basic story that is the source of the mythos (that at least is the design system I used for the Kreikiri: decide what I want it to do, then fluff to justify it, then brainstorm names and ideas for stuff, then see how it develops).

Edit: Can Kreikiri add specific weaknesses to its creatures? Like sunlight vulnerability of vampires or such? Hidden measures for easy-kill, unless it somehow made itself immune?(Which would be part of the Mythic Harvester, abandon previous limitations, enforced instincts granted by Kreikiri, etc.)

that should have been an option, and kind-of was in the original wording of the mythos. I will add that in.

this look like a good enough paragraph?:

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when designing a Created Creature it may be given any number of imaginable weaknesses, such as instant death conditions, vulnerability to certain environments, or similar. to determine exact conditions work with your GM. with some weaknesses the GM may reduce the creation DC by a small amount at their digression.

also I have the beginnings of some mythos, both Fantasic Tier:

Lord of the Warped

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Perquisite: -

As a standard action you may force your will on a being with grafts or a Created Creature, with a range of 60ft. In either case there are two options available. In any case the target gains a will save to resist.

On creatures with grafts you may use either of the following options:
• Suppress one of the creatures grafts for 1d4 rounds. A graft that is suppressed becomes unavailable to the creature to which it is attached, including as a limb or other body part. This effect may be applied to the same creature mutable times, stacking the duration. Should a graft become suppressed for over a minute, it crumbles to dust and is destroyed.

• Debilitate the creature, causing them to take a penalty on all rolls equal to the number of grafts they possess.

On Created Creatures you may use either of the following options:
• You may cause the creatures body to come undone, flaking apart into its component parts, dealing 1d4 damage per two Kreikiri levels you possess, which ignores any DR it may posess.

• Debilitate the creature, causing them to take a penalty on all rolls equal to half your Kreikiri level.
In any case Kreikiri are immune to all effects of this mythos.

Advanced manifestations:
-Name-
By using a standard action to may create an aura around yourself that repels creature that would use your gifts against you. Maintaining this aura requires an action per round.

The aura has a 10ft radius and prevents hostile creatures that possess grafts or are created creatures may not enter or move within this aura unless they pass a will save. Additionally they may not attack you unless they make this save.

Master of Change
Perquisite: Limb-Shredding Graft-Taker, Flesh-Warping Lineage Exhonoration

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When creating a graft you may convert it into a black oily liquid reminiscent of a potion for no additional cost but you must immediately roll for attachment, as a free action that takes no time but you may not take 20. On a failed roll half the cost of the graft is refunded to you with the rest of the graft points wasted, and no graft is created.

When turned into such a state the graft is functionally an ordinary potion that when inspected would be of an unknown spell. The imbiber of the potion is immediately staggered for the next 30 minutes and takes 3d6 points of nonlethal damage in the pain of their mutation. At the end of this period the imbiber will have completely developed the graft.

Should a creature use this to attempt to gain a graft when they may not possess any more grafts they instead immediately save against being infected by the disease created by the ‘Necrotic Meat-Mutation’ mythos, with the alteration that when they would become a Creature, they instead become a Black Pudding that is entirely normal apart from that it retains the infected individuals grafts, and that d4 portions of the ‘potion graft’ that caused them to become infected with the disease may be found on the Pudding’a corpse. Every time the Pudding splits the collected potions of the graft are shared among the split puddings. Should they pass the save they vomit up a vast pool of oily black residue. Should the Kreikiri who created the ‘potion graft’ have the ‘Necrotic Meat-Mutation’ Mythos the Pudding also inflicts the disease with its natural attacks.

Additionally when creating one a ‘potion graft’ in this manner you may choose to instead have it stay within the system of the imbiber and be passed on to one their next child. A graft gained by the eventual child this way gains the ‘Genetic’ augment and the graft will become available to the creature upon puberty.

The child is born entirely normal but upon puberty they do not gain the graft as normal, develop an unending hunger, and gain a bite attack that deals 1d6 damage for a medium creature, and that benefits form the Hidden Power augment of the Created Creature Feature. This hunger drives them to consume any and all food available, but that still does not reduce the hunger. The only way a creature may relieve themselves of their hunger is by consuming the body of a creature that has been dead for no less than 24 hours. The creature can consume the body unnaturally quickly taking 15 minutes for a small sized creature, with +15 minutes per size larger or half that time per size smaller.

After eating the creature the individual gains a number of graft points (identical to yours but they lack any means to use them) identical to how many you would have gained should you have harvested the corpse for graft points, taking into account any modifiers you possess into the roll such as making the dice used d6s or such, with the alteration that all dice rolled are maximised (should the consumed creature possess graft points they are gained by the consumer as well).

One the creature has gained a number of graft points equal to the amount originally needed to create their ‘Genetic’ graft they lose their hunger and bite attack and gain the graft as normal.

also for the idea you ad to make a creature undergo metamorphosis into a better version, I am making that an new Feature available in Flesh-Warping Lineage Exhonoration. I have just written the following augment for it.

Birth of the Successor

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The Creature with this augment gains a single Kreikiri Exceptional Mythos and excellency of your choice that it qualifies for, and gains 'Fleshcrafting Prodigy' as an additional excellency.

Upon entering its evolved form, the Creature gains a free level of Kreikiri (treating its prior myhtos and first Excellency as being selected from that first level), and may trade in a single level of an NPC class to gain one level of Kreikiri, and may also trade in additional levels in an NPC class for more levels of Kreikiri, at a ratio of "2 NPC levels to 1 Kreikiri level". A character with PC class levels but no NPC class levels may make a similar trade, but they may trade levels of a PC class for levels of Kreikiri at a "1 to 1" ratio. A character with racial hit dice, but no class levels of any kind, may lose 2 racial hit dice (or 1 if they only have 1), and replace it with a single level of Kreikiri.

[Yasahiro]

Birth of the Successor

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The Creature with this augment gains a single Kreikiri Exceptional Mythos and excellency of your choice that it qualifies for, and gains 'Fleshcrafting Prodigy' as an additional excellency.

Upon entering its evolved form, the Creature gains a free level of Kreikiri (treating its prior myhtos and first Excellency as being selected from that first level), and may trade in a single level of an NPC class to gain one level of Kreikiri, and may also trade in additional levels in an NPC class for more levels of Kreikiri, at a ratio of "2 NPC levels to 1 Kreikiri level". A character with PC class levels but no NPC class levels may make a similar trade, but they may trade levels of a PC class for levels of Kreikiri at a "1 to 1" ratio. A character with racial hit dice, but no class levels of any kind, may lose 2 racial hit dice (or 1 if they only have 1), and replace it with a single level of Kreikiri.

Except... No. Don't make them Kreikiri. That is completely unnecessary and complicates things or makes it more likely that the GM will say "No"

I was suggesting making it so that... you know how your Flesh-Warping Lineage Exhonoration works? With the option to make it so that as a child the creature can be a different thing than when it matures, like caterpillars into butterflies?

This was going to work the same way, except you only pay cost for the starting form + a fee to set the future forms, and it just gains a bite attack or some other way to get graft points. If it were to have multiple forms availible to go into, if Kreikiri gave it such option to do so, they can choose which form to go. Alternatively, it is determined at random or whether or not they fulfill some special requirements to evolve, set by Kreikiri too.

This was meant to make it so that the creature does not need Kreikiri levels, at all, for the evolution. So that this is part of their RACIAL stuff in a way.

[ThreadNecro5]

Except... No. Don't make them Kreikiri. That is completely unnecessary and complicates things or makes it more likely that the GM will say "No"

I was suggesting making it so that... you know how your Flesh-Warping Lineage Exhonoration works? With the option to make it so that as a child the creature can be a different thing than when it matures, like caterpillars into butterflies?

This was going to work the same way, except you only pay cost for the starting form + a fee to set the future forms, and it just gains a bite attack or some other way to get graft points. If it were to have multiple forms availible to go into, if Kreikiri gave it such option to do so, they can choose which form to go. Alternatively, it is determined at random or whether or not they fulfill some special requirements to evolve, set by Kreikiri too.

This was meant to make it so that the creature does not need Kreikiri levels, at all, for the evolution. So that this is part of their RACIAL stuff in a way.

I understand. the bit you quoted was just to be an augment to the surrounding ability.

the reason I have not been able to post in a while is that I have been online less and by laptop has broken down and I am needing a new one. thankfully all the classes material is located here. will check in periodically and will make a note for when I can properly start working on the class again.

also (very) rough excellency idea:
gives immunity to all effects that would cause your body to become altered (such as baleful polymorph) apart from those of another Kreikiri. should the effect originate from a Kreikiri you are immune to it should your kreikiri level be higher.
in any case you may choose to be affected any any effect you would be immune to form this excellency.