Class and Level Geekery XIII - Comic As Written, not Comic As Intended

[zimmerwald1915]

Does Profession: Gourmet Chef run off Wisdom or Int?

All Profession skills run off Wisdom in the same way all Perform skills run off Charisma and all Knowledge skills run off Intelligence.

[ghoul-n]

But a greatsword is not among the "some weapons" that can be used to make trip attacks without provoking. That's reserved for weapons like the guisarme, halberd, and sickle, the descriptions of which say they can be used to make trip attacks.

This is indeed a fair point.

However looking now at Improved Trip description I can't see anything about Attacks of Opportunity while being armed.

Improved Trip [General]

Prerequisites
Int 13, Combat Expertise.

Benefit
You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed. You also gain a +4 bonus on your Strength check to trip your opponent.

If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.

Normal
Without this feat, you provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed.

Special
At 6th level, a monk may select Improved Trip as a bonus feat, even if she does not have the prerequisites.

A fighter may select Improved Trip as one of his fighter bonus feats.

So, Roy PROBABLY could've had it, but imo it wouldn't be that relevant right now.

Now, let's look at flat-footed description:

Flat-Footed
A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, not yet reacting normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.[/B]

It fits if Durkon's glowing hand in #1000 counts as scary special effect and not as combat action. Does it?

[littlebum2002]

So, maybe I missed this conversation, but is V not casting Foreceful Hand in 934?

[zimmerwald1915]

So, maybe I missed this conversation, but is V not casting Foreceful Hand in 934?

Yes. Interestingly, this is acknowledged in her level analysis, but not in the spell list in her statblock.

[Jasdoif]

So, maybe I missed this conversation, but is V not casting Foreceful Hand in 934?

It's certainly possible, but grasping hand (which Vaarsuvius is already listed as having) can perform the same function as forceful hand with a larger bonus.

[littlebum2002]

Huh. Yeah, having so many Hand spells that all basically do the same thing is a nightmare when trying to pin down the stats of a wizard who constantly uses said spells.

[Peelee]

Huh. Yeah, having so many Hand spells that all basically do the same thing is a nightmare when trying to pin down the stats of a wizard who constantly uses said spells.

Logically, we could reason out that since V likes the Hand line, he would very likely take the new one at each new spell level, and thus has them all. By the way this thread works, though, yeah; it's a a logistical quagmire at times.

[Quartz]

All Profession skills run off Wisdom

That pretty much nails it. SRD cite.

[Quild]

I'm wondering, just out of curiosity, if Roy was unlucky not to hit HPoH on his second attack.

I assume that Roy easily overcomes the 10 DR (7 from STR modifier, 5 from weapon modifier, 2 from weapon specialization and at least 2 damage from dice rolls), so if he hits, he damages. Where was that strip where a barbarian hits at 1d12+3xx again? :D


HPoH has at least for AC:
10 base natural armor
+6 from vampire template
+8 from his full plate armor
+1-5 from his amulet (which stacks with vampire template, right?)
That's 25-29
I suppose the amulet grants +3, but I don't really care here.

Roy's bonus to hit is:
14 bab
+7 from STR modifier
+5 from weapon modifier
+1 from weapon focus

So if that calculation is correct, on anything else than a fumble, Roy hits on his first strike.
Which would mean that either Roy fumbled, either he used Power Attack (and rolled 6 at the very most if he used full power attack on a HPoH with 29 AC).

Has Roy been unlucky on this hit (that have to happen sometimes) or am I forgetting some things that boost HPoH's AC?

Edit: Ah, he missed again while I was typing!

[Crusher]

I'm wondering, just out of curiosity, if Roy was unlucky not to hit HPoH on his second attack.

I assume that Roy easily overcomes the 10 DR (7 from STR modifier, 5 from weapon modifier, 2 from weapon specialization and at least 2 damage from dice rolls), so if he hits, he damages. Where was that strip where a barbarian hits at 1d12+3xx again? :D


HPoH has at least for AC:
10 base natural armor
+6 from vampire template
+8 from his full plate armor
+1-5 from his amulet (which stacks with vampire template, right?)
That's 25-29
I suppose the amulet grants +3, but I don't really care here.

Roy's bonus to hit is:
14 bab
+7 from STR modifier
+5 from weapon modifier
+1 from weapon focus

So if that calculation is correct, on anything else than a fumble, Roy hits on his first strike.
Which would mean that either Roy fumbled, either he used Power Attack (and rolled 6 at the very most if he used full power attack on a HPoH with 29 AC).

Has Roy been unlucky on this hit (that have to happen sometimes) or am I forgetting some things that boost HPoH's AC?

Edit: Ah, he missed again while I was typing!

Plus shield, and given Durkon's level it would be pretty shocking if it and the full plate weren't magical.

[Quild]

Plus shield, and given Durkon's level it would be pretty shocking if it and the full plate weren't magical.

That's another +1 or +2 then. Durkon's armor wasn't mentionned to be magical some time ago and he hasn't change since. Sooo, not sure about this one.

[b_jonas]

HPoH has at least for AC:
10 base natural armor
+6 from vampire template
+8 from his full plate armor
+1-5 from his amulet (which stacks with vampire template, right?)
That's 25-29
I suppose the amulet grants +3, but I don't really care here.

Has Roy been unlucky on this hit (that have to happen sometimes) or am I forgetting some things that boost HPoH's AC?

Durkon also has a heritage shield, which may even be magical, and should boost his AC. His shoes may also help.

[zimmerwald1915]

Even if Durkon's armor isn't magical, he might have cast magic vestment before the meeting, which at his level would grant an additional +3 enhancement bonus.

[Codyage]

I think this comment may have been glossed over when I proposed it. But I am sure Durkon's shield might be a light steel shield.

It appears to be steel, can be used to shield bash, while also being able to hold an item in the same hand as the shield. We can see that the shield straps around his arm, leaving his hand open.

A heavy shield cannot be used to hold any other items, and a buckler cannot be used to shield bash. Can we update Durkon to have Heirloom light steel shield, and warhammer? That way for all future stat purposes, we know its a light steel shield.

[LightPhoenix]

I'm don't believe his amulet stacks with the bonus from being a vampire.

Per the SRD on Natural Armor:

Natural armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to Armor Class (even with armor bonuses) except other natural armor bonuses.

And per the SRD on Vampires:

The base creature’s natural armor bonus improves by +6.

And of course on the Amulet of Natural Armor:

This amulet, usually crafted from bone or beast scales, toughens the wearer’s body and flesh, giving him an enhancement bonus to his natural armor bonus of from +1 to +5, depending on the kind of amulet.

Since natural armor bonuses don't stack, and both bonuses are to natural armor, he does not get a bonus from the amulet.

[EDIT] Also, given the last two comics, either Roy has gotten hideously unlucky, or Durkon has some other bonus to AC if Quild's analysis is otherwise correct (Roy's AB of +27 vs. Durk's AC of 24-26 with a shield).

[zimmerwald1915]

Since natural armor bonuses don't stack, and both bonuses are to natural armor, he does not get a bonus from the amulet.

While yours is probably the best reading, it's complicated by the fact that the template grants an unspecified bonus to the "base creature's" natural armor, while the amulet grants an "enhancement bonus" to natural armor. The enhancement bonus, at least when talking about AC, applies to another bonus type. For example, the enhancement bonus carried by a suit of armor affects the armor bonus to AC. It is not listed separately. The natural armor bonus to AC is listed separately from other bonuses. Does that mean enhancement bonuses applied to it affect it the same way enhancement bonuses affect armor or shield bonuses to AC?

[LightPhoenix]

Does that mean enhancement bonuses applied to it affect it the same way enhancement bonuses affect armor or shield bonuses to AC?

I would argue no. It's a bonus to natural armor, and the entry for natural armor does not stipulate any exceptions based on where the bonus comes from. Therefore, no bonuses to natural armor stack, no matter what the source or type is. Since both the vampire template and the amulet are bonuses, they don't stack.

[Jasdoif]

While yours is probably the best reading, it's complicated by the fact that the template grants an unspecified bonus to the "base creature's" natural armor, while the amulet grants an "enhancement bonus" to natural armor.

I disagree that the template grants a bonus, actually.

The base creature’s natural armor bonus improves by +6.

No modifier is added, the base natural armor bonus is altered directly. It's the same as ability score adjustments; A vampire doesn't have the same base Strength score with an untyped +6 bonus; it has a Strength score 6 points higher than the base score.

[Seward]

I'm wondering, just out of curiosity, if Roy was unlucky not to hit HPoH on his second attack.

I assume that Roy easily overcomes the 10 DR (7 from STR modifier, 5 from weapon modifier, 2 from weapon specialization and at least 2 damage from dice rolls), so if he hits, he damages. Where was that strip where a barbarian hits at 1d12+3xx again? :D


HPoH has at least for AC:
10 base natural armor
+6 from vampire template
+8 from his full plate armor
+1-5 from his amulet (which stacks with vampire template, right?)
That's 25-29
I suppose the amulet grants +3, but I don't really care here.

We really need to add +3 to armor and shield for Mantle of Faith. It's only a 3rd level spell, lasts all day and gives +3 at 12th level, +4 at 16th level. Every cleric uses it routinely at those levels rather than enchanting their armor/shield...it's as common as natural spell on a druid. So Durkula is likely rocking about 35 armor class. Roy doesn't have haste running so each attack after the first is at -5, his second and third iteratives aren't that likely to hit (thus him hitting about 1/3 times...sometimes the first attack will get unlucky but his later attacks will get lucky, it's a very normal outcome at his level)

[Seward]

I would argue no. It's a bonus to natural armor, and the entry for natural armor does not stipulate any exceptions based on where the bonus comes from. Therefore, no bonuses to natural armor stack, no matter what the source or type is. Since both the vampire template and the amulet are bonuses, they don't stack.

The natural armor bonus from an amulet (or the druid spell Barkskin) is an "enhancement" bonus. It stacks on whatever natural armor a critter has already, which includes that added by the template. Likewise Durkon's wisdom bonus will still get added to if he has an amulet of wisdom - which he almost certainly does.

The reason to not give Durkula an amulet of natural armor is that in 3.5, it takes the same slot as his wisdom item. (ditto con, but that's not a problem for an undead. Clerics have a hard time getting permanent enh bonuses to con in 3.5).

Even without the amulet though, mantle of faith means he's at least in the low 30s and Roy might be power attacking some to get through the DR, which means he'll have a lower attack bonus than you guys estimated.

[Quild]

In the same way than Jasfoif, I believe that there's a difference between "natural armor bonus" and "bonus to natural armor" :D

If Roy was turned into a vampire, his belt wouldn't be suddenly useless.


So HPoH has:
16 Natural Armor
+8 from Full Plate Armor
+1 from shield
+1-5 from amulet

Now, about enhancement bonus...
Am I right to believe that an enhancement bonus on either the shield or the armor (or, say, a ring) would not stack with another one?
It makes an at least +3 bonus from magic vestment likely, but we can't expect very much unless the shield is +4 or +5, right?
Then, a +4 deflection bonus to AC from Shield of Faith could also apply and be one of the spells that we've seen HPoH cast in #1000 (last panel) or #1001 (fourth panel).

That would make HPoH AC something like 33-37?

In that case, not really surprising that Roy has some trouble damaging him if he uses power attack. And due to that 10 to DR, he needs that if he does not want his damage range to be 6-20 each hit (especially when HPoH has 5 to fast Healing). Up to 10 (or 15) additive damage to each hit seems better than higher chance to hit.

[Seward]

s...
Am I right to believe that an enhancement bonus on either the shield or the armor (or, say, a ring) would not stack with another one?[

You would not be correct. Each enhancement bonus to a different thing stacks.

In Durkon's case, Magic Vestment adds an enhancement bonus to his Armor bonus. The spell can also be used to add an enhancement bonus to his Shield bonus. An amulet of natural armor would add an enhancement bonus to his natural armor. Gloves of dexterity would add an enhancement bonus to his dexterity which might help his AC if he wasn't already a vampire in heavy armor.

Realistically he isn't going to have some of those bonuses, but he might have some others. Here's the stack he's likely to have, based on how I saw a lot of level 15ish clerics play in Living Greyhawk.

10 Base
6 Vampire natural armor
1 Dodge bonus from dexterity (fulllplate allows +1 dex bonus, and vampire temlplate gives dex, so Durkula has almost got to have a 12 dexterity by now)
8 Armor bonus from fullplate
3 Enhancement to Armor from Magic Vestment 14-15th level cast on armor
2 Armor bonus from heavy shield
3 Enhancement bonus to Armor from Magic Vestment 14-15th level cast on armor
1 (at least) Deflection bonus from ring of protection
(Belkar "I throw ring+1 in the trash" at Azure City time - they've all got one)
==
34
Durkon might have circle of protection from good running, anticipating fighting Roy, Haley or Elan, that would bump him to 35 against him, and it lasts 2.5 hours for a L3 spell. If he cast Shield of Faith before entering the Moot (15 minute duration) he'd bump to 37 AC (+4 deflection)

What Durkon will not have, barring homebrew magic items are:
1. Amulet of Natural Armor - he can only wear this if he doesn't have an Amulet of Wisdom - given that he only gets high level bonus spells if he has a permanent wisdom bonus, that's simply insane. No cleric ever uses his amulet slot for anything but Amulet of Wisdom once one is found/bought. It's a big enough problem (because Amulet of Con is also blocked) that clerics do value highly any wisdom item that goes on another slot and can be enhanced beyond what an Ioun stone can do (only +2). Also some players who really want high AC contort the character concept just to take plant domain because barkskin is a domain spell.

Other things are possible but AC wasn't Durkon's main thing (so no ioun stones that add +1, no feat spent on "Dodge", etc). Being a cleric, it didn't need to be, as you can see he gets quite respectable AC just because of his basic cleric spells and wearing heavy armor/shield. (what I listed above costs him only a about 4000gp, half of that for the ring +1 and 2-3 level 3 spell slots, possibly a level 1 spell slot as well. This is pocket change at level 15) The vampire template just took a good AC and bumped it to "front line fighter" levels. Getting it any better is quite pricey - spending cash on armor shield is pointless (in 1-2 more levels he gets +4 for free from magic vestment, vs paying 16k per item), bumping the ring to +2 is 6k, but he has a spell he can cast or even quicken that does +4 already (+28k) so why bother? There are no easy natural armor items beyond buying scrolls of Barkskin and seeing if Haley can UMD them, something Durkon likely wouldn't think of and HPOH wouldn't dream of. The ioun stone is only 5k, but it would whiz about his head quite visibly, so he doesn't have one etc.

I am assuming about 34 AC, with 35 vs good very likely and 37 quite possible. You got the target range right in your last post, but more or less by having errors cancel out. Given that Rich tends to do this sort of thing by feel, he might have guestimated the numbers slightly differently but also likely arrived at mid-30s AC, which tends to get hit by a L15 fighter mostly on the top iterative attack and other things that get full bonus (such as AOOs)

[zimmerwald1915]

You would not be correct. Each enhancement bonus to a different thing stacks.

This is correct.

[Quild]

Ah. But the +4 or +6 STR enhancement from Roy's belt can not be stacked with Bull's Strength, right?
Because this enhancements applies on Roy I guess. It's not the belt itself that's super strong.

[Lvl45DM!]

Its because they are both enhancement bonuses as opposed to a racial bonus like being a vampire. An orc has a +4 strength and benefits from a +2 belt of strength. Different kinds of bonuses always stack

[MesiDoomstalker]

Completely unrelated to the Durkula AC debate, shouldn't 896 prove that V has at least 1 point in Knolwedge (Architecture and Engineering)?

[Lvl45DM!]

Why? V didnt realize the acoustics thing based on Knowledge he deduced it. The room changed shape and he could suddenly hear things.

[zimmerwald1915]

Why? V didnt realize the acoustics thing based on Knowledge he deduced it. The room changed shape and he could suddenly hear things.

Knowledge skills model that kind of deduction.

[b_jonas]

About calculating Durkon's AC, I still think there are too many uncertainities. I agree that the shield he heirloom shield is a small one that likely gives only 1 point of AC by its base, but given that it's a heirloom, it may be magically enchanted, which can add up to 5 additional points. Besides the shield, you didn't seem to count Durkon's boots, which likely protect at least 1 point, but could also add more if it's magical.

It's also possible for Durkon to have sources of AC form divine magic (or other divine powers, such as abilities gained from a domain) that we have no way to know about. I believe such protection spells are easily accessible, though many of them can be excluded because would have obvious visible effects or because they don't stack with the Vampire natural armor or armor enchantment.

Update:

Why? V didnt realize the acoustics thing based on Knowledge he deduced it. The room changed shape and he could suddenly hear things.

Agreed. Her “keen elven senses” and the Alertness granted by Blackwing have actually worked this time. But the question is whether she needs a Knowledge skill to deduce that the changes of acoustics means the dungeon was designed for eavesdropping. I'd think she doesn't, need a skill, she can do that deduction without training the skill.

[Douglas]

Besides the shield, you didn't seem to count Durkon's boots, which likely protect at least 1 point, but could also add more if it's magical.

The boots are just part of his armor, and their protection is included in the armor's bonus. Boots in D&D are not a separate protective item. They can be magical items, but the properties that go on them are not typically protective in nature.