Class and Level Geekery XIII - Comic As Written, not Comic As Intended

[Jasdoif]

Giant said somehwere (I'll go find the link in a second) he regretted giving Malack the staff because of logistical problems drawing and planning panels with it, which is why he set it down before his duel with Durkon.

I'll save you the trouble:

Also, because it would be a pain in the ass to have to keep track of one more large equipment object in every panel V appears in. Is he/she holding it? Where did he/she leave it? Which hand was he/she holding it in last panel? Malack's staff has turned into an annoyance in that regard, hence the reason he put it down right before the fight began. I'm not about to make things harder for myself for no benefit.

Emphasis mine.

[Quartz]

Also, reading up on the recent posts, there is general agreement that Belkar's wisdom is 8 - 9.

Umm... no. There's general agreement it WAS 9 when Owl's Wisdom was cast on him. But that was many hundreds of strips ago. It's possible that Belkar may have used his stat bump at levels 12 or 16 or both (most likely just at level 16) to increase his Wisdom to 10. There is no evidence either way.

[Kurald Galain]

Right. Here's the thing: once something is shown on-panel (or mentioned in Rich's comments) that we can list in this thread, we keep listing it until we know that it has changed; we're not just going to remove it because it might have changed.

For instance, if Elan is shown wielding a rapier, we're going to assume he still has the rapier several comics later, even though it's technically possible that he lost it off-panel somewhere; until we see in the comic that e.g. it breaks. Likewise, if Roy tells us he has the Great Cleave feat, we're assuming he still has the feat later in the comic, even though retraining rules exist and it's possible that he changed it at some point (and some people will probably argue it's a suboptimal feat anyway). If Vaarsuvius says he has zero ranks in the Spot skill, then we'll assume he'll still have zero ranks in Spot skill later unless we have evidence that he does have ranks, even though it's possible to raise skills at levelup. And so forth.

This has been true since pretty much the beginning of this thread, because of how short it would become otherwise.

[MesiDoomstalker]

The point of the Quote I was referring to (Thanks Jasdoif) wasn't that we should remove the staff from his inventory. It was to say that the staff will routinely be out of his hands, especially for action sequences because of the Giant's aforementioned difficulty drawing with it and as such, shouldn't be removed till we have some concrete evidence of it being lost. Which is basically what you said.

[LuisDantas]

Why is Durkon listed as a vampire, when we now know it is not the real Durkon, but a different character? Shouldn't he be listed as dead, with another entry for the unnamed vampire? Or, because they have exactly identical stats (other than vampiric boons), would it basically be a waste of space?

It seems to me that the stats would not be identical; HPoH probably has at least different INT and/or WIS, probably CHA as well. The lists of spells are certainly very different.

It is arguable that there is little benefit in making separate entries, though. For the time being Durkon is sharing space in his own body, after all. It would be worth the trouble if we had more than a very general idea of HPoH's stats.

But so far all we know is "true name unknown, uses Durkon's in nearly all situations; occupies Durkon's vampiric body; can communicate with Durkon and access his memories with some effort; is in no way an aspect of the personality of Durkon himself; was somehow aware of the Godsmoot's call and exact localtion; available evidence implies that he is a loyal servant of Hel; may suffer from overconfidence; has no discernible accent of his own but usually mimics Durkon's; Cleric Level 13+ (necessary to cast Control Weather)". We might add some vampiric powers and spells, I suppose.

Incidentally, I notice that Durkon's entry claims that his name is a pseudonym. What we have seem of his flashbacks implies that such is not the case, and the reference link implies that it is a pseudonym for the High Priest of Hel, not for Durkon himself.

[Peelee]

It seems to me that the stats would not be identical; HPoH probably has at least different INT and/or WIS, probably CHA as well. The lists of spells are certainly very different.

"Vampire" is an acquired template that can be added to any humanoid or monstrous humanoid creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

A vampire uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.
....
Abilities
Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +6, Dex +4, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4. As an undead creature, a vampire has no Constitution score.

The list of spells is the standard Cleric list. Which is fully available to any Cleric of a given level, and is subject to change on a day-by-day basis.

So, exactly identical stats (other than vampiric boons).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So, exactly identical stats (other than vampiric boons).

And domain(s).

GW

[LuisDantas]

The list of spells is the standard Cleric list. Which is fully available to any Cleric of a given level, and is subject to change on a day-by-day basis.

So, exactly identical stats (other than vampiric boons).

Wouldn't cleric level and domain spells, at least, change?

[zimmerwald1915]

The thing about the vampire-spirit is that it doesn't actually have stats on its own. It has no independent existence. Rather, it hijacks the stats of the person whose body it is piloting around, adds some to the top, and maybe supersedes a few. If we were to have an entry for the High Priest of Hel, it would be limited solely to "applies the Vampire template to Durkon Thundershield."

[Peelee]

Wouldn't cleric level and domain spells, at least, change?

Not level, but domain spells would change, as Grey Wolf pointed out. Also, zimmerwald hit the final nail; its a template added onto a creature, so it'd be silly to list it separately.

I figured there was a reason, i just couldn't nail down what it was.

[Gift Jeraff]

The 2015 calendar shows Redcloak in the new artstyle with shoulderpads. Combined with the black armor line in SoD, I think he could be listed as having armor.

[LuisDantas]

The thing about the vampire-spirit is that it doesn't actually have stats on its own. It has no independent existence.

Maybe I am missing something, but the strips from 946-on seem to make it rather clear that the High Priest of Hel has very much an independent existence from Durkon. It is just possessing Durkon's body since some point between Durkon's vampirization and his release from Malack's thrall.

Rather, it hijacks the stats of the person whose body it is piloting around, adds some to the top, and maybe supersedes a few. If we were to have an entry for the High Priest of Hel, it would be limited solely to "applies the Vampire template to Durkon Thundershield."

For the physical stats, sure. But the mental ones?

Not level, but domain spells would change, as Grey Wolf pointed out. Also, zimmerwald hit the final nail; its a template added onto a creature, so it'd be silly to list it separately.

I figured there was a reason, i just couldn't nail down what it was.

How or why would we know or assume that the High Priest of Hel (who is explicitly a separate soul) has the same level as Durkon (before the vampire template is applied)?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

For the physical stats, sure. But the mental ones?

By RAW, yes, both.

How or why would we know or assume that the High Priest of Hel (who is explicitly a separate soul) has the same level as Durkon (before the vampire template is applied)?

First, because that's what RAW says (which doesn't matter in most threads, but this is the RAW thread, after all). That said, even beyond that, we know that that is what has happened in the case of Durkon: the HPoH spells out that Hel has been waiting forever for a dwarven high level cleric to be killed by a vampire so that she could co-op the levels for her own HPoH, since trying to grind an undead priest from level 1 inevitable ended destroyed by low-level adventurers. If the HPoH had his own levels, Hel could have used any old dwarf killed by a vampire.

Grey Wolf

[zimmerwald1915]

Maybe I am missing something, but the strips from 946-on seem to make it rather clear that the High Priest of Hel has very much an independent existence from Durkon. It is just possessing Durkon's body since some point between Durkon's vampirization and his release from Malack's thrall.

By "no independent existence," I meant it did not exist prior to Durkon's vampirization, cannot exist outside Durkon or outside the context of his vampirization, and ceases to exist when Durkon ceases to be a vampire. Hel doesn't pluck vampire-spirits out of some preexisting non-life, she creates one especially for each Northern vampire, when it is sired. This particular spirit isn't anything special in and of itself. It is special, and bears the status of High Priest, solely by virtue of possessing Durkon and his ample Cleric levels.

For the physical stats, sure. But the mental ones?

Those are the stats "added to the top." But Durkon's base stats and powers are still there, just with bonuses and extras from the template.

How or why would we know or assume that the High Priest of Hel (who is explicitly a separate soul) has the same level as Durkon (before the vampire template is applied)?

Because the vampire-spirit is different from some random spellcaster that happens to know magic jar. It doesn't have stats on its own. It exists to hijack some other person's stats (read: their body) and use them to its purpose. That is what it does. That is all it does.

[ti'esar]

Should this post (specifically the first paragraph) count as evidence that Roy has indeed learned Horace's pseudo-Mage Slayer feat?

[Bird]

Should this post (specifically the first paragraph) count as evidence that Roy has indeed learned Horace's pseudo-Mage Slayer feat?

I'd say so. The Giant couldn't have been any clearer that Roy mastered it. You can't master a feat you don't have.

[Peelee]

How or why would we know or assume that the High Priest of Hel (who is explicitly a separate soul) has the same level as Durkon (before the vampire template is applied)?

I mean, I even quoted the direct reference for this from the SRD. Again, if you need:

"Vampire" is an acquired template that can be added to any humanoid or monstrous humanoid creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

A vampire uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.
....
Abilities
Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +6, Dex +4, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4. As an undead creature, a vampire has no Constitution score.

[Quild]

Soooo.

First attack seems to be an armed trip attack. I'd say there's no reason to think that Roy used a feat here. I am however surprised that Roy did not damaged HPoH here. Is that because a trip attack does not need to make damage to have the target to trip or rather than you sacrifice any damage you could do when you attempt a trip attack?
Because I don't see how Roy could manage not to damage HPoH on a hit that hits. He has at least 24 STR (or 22 in worst case scenario if he had gauntlets of ogre's power before acquiring his belt and it's a +4 belt), his weapon is a +5 weapon so deals at least 6 damage per hit. So, STR modifier + min damage is at the very least +12. Which overcomes HPoH's DR.

For the second attack, I think that Roy did not overcome HPoH's AC. Vampire's template probably sent Durkon's previous AC into the stratosphere.

I don't believe we can calculate anything from this or Roy's Will Save :(
Please tell me that a trip attack is not supposed to deal any damage!

[zimmerwald1915]

Please tell me that a trip attack is not supposed to deal any damage!

With the exception of monsters like wolves, that can make trip attempts on any successful attack, trip attacks do not deal damage.

[illyahr]

Soooo.

First attack seems to be an armed trip attack. I'd say there's no reason to think that Roy used a feat here. I am however surprised that Roy did not damaged HPoH here. Is that because a trip attack does not need to make damage to have the target to trip or rather than you sacrifice any damage you could do when you attempt a trip attack?
Because I don't see how Roy could manage not to damage HPoH on a hit that hits. He has at least 24 STR (or 22 in worst case scenario if he had gauntlets of ogre's power before acquiring his belt and it's a +4 belt), his weapon is a +5 weapon so deals at least 6 damage per hit. So, STR modifier + min damage is at the very least +12. Which overcomes HPoH's DR.

For the second attack, I think that Roy did not overcome HPoH's AC. Vampire's template probably sent Durkon's previous AC into the stratosphere.

I don't believe we can calculate anything from this or Roy's Will Save :(
Please tell me that a trip attack is not supposed to deal any damage!

Normally, a trip is it's own separate action so it doesn't deal damage by itself.

However, can we assume HPoH wasn't flat-footed here? Because if he wasn't Roy would have provoked AoO unless he had the Improved Trip feat. Is that in his list of feats yet? Would Roy need Improved Trip's +4 bonus against HPoH, who has a dwarf's stability, which gives a bonus to resist trip attempts?

[Lheticus]

I'm sure someone has said this already, but to join the camp: I'm pretty sure Roy's Will susceptibility in Girard's Tomb led him to take Iron Will by this point.

[Peelee]

I'm sure someone has said this already, but to join the camp: I'm pretty sure Roy's Will susceptibility in Girard's Tomb led him to take Iron Will by this point.

Really? What other times had he failed a Will save? And it's not like Xykon used illusions. Iron Will seems less helpful for Roy

[Kornaki]

Not to mention when did he gain the levels to pick the extra feat?

[ghoul-n]

Because if he wasn't Roy would have provoked AoO unless he had the Improved Trip feat. Is that in his list of feats yet? Would Roy need Improved Trip's +4 bonus against HPoH, who has a dwarf's stability, which gives a bonus to resist trip attempts?

Nah, I think it's probably not the case.

Tripping with a Weapon

Some weapons can be used to make trip attacks. In this case, you make a melee touch attack with the weapon instead of an unarmed melee touch attack, and you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/spe...tacks.htm#trip

[zimmerwald1915]

Nah, I think it's probably not the case.



http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/spe...tacks.htm#trip

But a greatsword is not among the "some weapons" that can be used to make trip attacks without provoking. That's reserved for weapons like the guisarme, halberd, and sickle, the descriptions of which say they can be used to make trip attacks.

[Sky_Schemer]

Umm... no. There's general agreement it WAS 9 when Owl's Wisdom was cast on him. But that was many hundreds of strips ago. It's possible that Belkar may have used his stat bump at levels 12 or 16 or both (most likely just at level 16) to increase his Wisdom to 10. There is no evidence either way.

Actually, we know as of 475 that he had an ability score penalty on wisdom. But, that was still a long time ago so your larger point still stands.

[Peelee]

Actually, we know as of 475 that he had an ability score penalty on wisdom. But, that was still a long time ago so your larger point still stands.

Its also possible he took a level of Cleric. There's no evidence either way. And yet, that's insufficient reasoning to list anything related to it. The overall point is meaningless. The last confirmed Wis score was, at greatest, 9. There is no reason to change it until we get confirmation of a change.

[Quild]

Actually, we know as of 475 that he had an ability score penalty on wisdom. But, that was still a long time ago so your larger point still stands.

Latest calculations assume that Belkar reached level 12 in 249 and did not reached level 16 yet. So he didn't get any bonus ability point since 475.

[Quartz]

Actually, we know as of 475 that he had an ability score penalty on wisdom. But, that was still a long time ago so your larger point still stands.

Does Profession: Gourmet Chef run off Wisdom or Int?

[b_jonas]

Does Profession: Gourmet Chef run off Wisdom or Int?

I would guess it runs on Dexterity.