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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Snowbluff's Avatar

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    Default Dead rat deserter hybrid bite.

    Can it be optimized? It looks like a neat at-will. I don't think the OGD stacks, and it's not a weapon attack, but it certainly is... primal? What can you do with that?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

  2. - Top - End - #2
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    Default Re: Dead rat deserter hybrid bite.

    It's got shoddy accuracy at higher levels and sadly isn't an MBA either, so it's not really ever going to end up impressive. I don't think any of the Tiefling OGD support works, either... Ruthless Punisher (Ranger PP) would add Wis mod to the OGD.
    I'd suggest looking into Wererat instead. Its got smaller damage dice, but better scaling attack bonus. It only OGDs with combat advantage, but on the other hand it's also an MBA. Possibly some Essentials martial class (though Thief runs into weapon problems) picking up Ruthless Punisher could make use of it. By level 10 the hybrid form lets you use both Beast Form and none-Beast Form powers without changing form, so you can mix it up with druid beast powers as well if you want to.
    Maybe a Knight going Wis primary (Wererat MBA uses highest ability) mc Ranger (Warrior of the Wild) for Quarry and Ruthless Punisher. It gives up a lot of class features for it, though.
    Scout could work, though with no Quarry you miss out on some bonus damage from a PP feature. On the plus side, it frees up your multiclass. From Ruthless Punisher your Dual Weapon Attack should always have CA as well (so you'd only need to ensure it for the first strike) for a minor bonus, and you still have an outlet for your Power Strikes.
    Of course, anything with a use for MBAs can use the were-themes for that, but I figure you want to focus a bit on the MBA, so it'd be a bit of a loss to not use it more. Very nice for classes without a native MBA (Battlemind, for instance), but in those cases you'd also want to consider Werebear and Werewolf, since their MBAs have different riders.

  3. - Top - End - #3
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    Default Re: Dead rat deserter hybrid bite.

    Hm... yeah. The were rat does seem like a better choice. CA isn't that hard to work with.

    Another option I was mulling over was sorcerer. They have a utility that increases OGD for each effect by 10.
    Last edited by Snowbluff; 2015-01-18 at 10:19 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dead rat deserter hybrid bite.

    It'd be interesting if you could pull off some mass OGD with maybe some save penalties, but for a single target and a daily utility, it's just... a huge investment for the payoff. You want things that trigger on all (or most) of OGD you deal or things that benefit you when the enemy is taking OGD. You'll probably be hitting them over and over, so it doesn't matter much if they save or not, you just apply a new instance of it.

  5. - Top - End - #5
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    Default Re: Dead rat deserter hybrid bite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Waddacku View Post
    It'd be interesting if you could pull off some mass OGD with maybe some save penalties,
    I've made a rather effective build for this once. It relies on
    • Desert wind monk with Slashing Kama Style, so you can deal OGD with your flurry.
    • Wizard hybrid to use Fire Shroud, which is hands-down the best OGD encounter power in the game.
    • Wizard also has a daily Summon Magma Beast which hands out free OGD in addition to whatever else you're doing.
    • Blood mage paragon path, so you deal OGD on an action point.
    • Play as a tiefling so you can use Hellfire Master and Icy Clutch of Stygia.
    • The tiefling can also use Secrets of Belial to pick up Energy Storm as an utility power.


    Note that OGD from SKS, FS, and BM all stack since they're different types. Note also that all of them can trigger HM separately, since they can all be an effect created by a fire attack.
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  6. - Top - End - #6
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    Default Re: Dead rat deserter hybrid bite.

    Good stuff, guys. I've been thinking about including Mark of Corruption for the -2 versus OGD when I hit enemies with a daily. This is getting my build juices going.

    There's another feat for spellscarred that hits a secondary target when the OGD ticks.

    As for Hellfire Master, I think it might be better if I just don't let them save. I need to tank those saves...

    EDIT: Shardbound Familiar (Khyber) gives OGD when you bloody an enemy with an arcane power. Might be interesting for a melee arcanist.
    Last edited by Snowbluff; 2015-01-19 at 10:23 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dead rat deserter hybrid bite.

    Elemental Pact Warlock mc Wizard, Shardbound Familiar (Khyber), possibly a Tiefling for Hellfire feats, Wizard fire damage feats. If you've got the feat space for it, can also dive into frostcheese with a Weapon of Summer (heavy blade only) and Arcane Fire/Wintertouched. Use your Elemental Pact to make all your attacks Cold and Weapon of Summer to add Fire. Unlike Lasting Frost, it works for multiple targets at once. Between your boon and Arcane Fire, you have two vulnerabilities to proc. Hitting them again after the first hit sets them on fire. Bloodying them next to your familiar stacks on ongoing Cold, an effect caused by a Fire attack, so both instances of OGD can trigger both Hellfire Master and Icy Clutch of Stygia.

    This is ridiculously feat intensive, of course, though you don't need to use all the parts.

    EDIT: Duh, you can save yourself the Weapon of Summer trouble with Gloves of Eldritch Admixture, if you're fine with just getting the full combo on one enemy at a time when not using charges from the Gloves (which is likely true).

    DOUBLE EDIT: On second look, that might not actually add the keyword, since you get to choose whether to deal Curse damage after rolling regular damage.
    Last edited by Waddacku; 2015-01-20 at 10:23 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #8
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    Default Re: Dead rat deserter hybrid bite.

    I like how often my builds end up coming back to Hexblades and Warlocks. I think the fire/frost combo has convinced me of the value of the Tiefling feats. It's a shame it can't be combined with Blackguard's OGD spam.

    However, I've recently been informed that hexblade can cheese equipment powers. Which is totally cool with me, since they don't have a lot of support options otherwise.

    Okay, hows this for a stub:

    Tielfling Eleblade MC Wizard
    1: Arcane Familiar (Disembodied Hand or Rakshasa Claw, since they let you swap weapons quick)
    2: Hellfire Master
    4: Icy Clutch of Stygia
    6: Wizard MC feat (Probably Implement Master, for Tome of Binding)
    8: Arcane Implement Proficiency
    10: Shardbound Familiar (Khyber) (Retrained)
    11: Consuming the Weak (Fire vulnerable target hit by arcane fire attack takes ongoing fire) or Lasting Frost

    I'd like more options for Fire Vulnerability...
    Last edited by Snowbluff; 2015-01-20 at 01:31 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dead rat deserter hybrid bite.

    You need to take your mc feat before Hellfire Master.

    Assuming you're going for a Weapon of Summer for the fire damage, you want to admixture Cold on your Unraveling Strike. Alternatively, a less feat intensive version would just admixture Fire and get Sympathy of Flame, Burn Everything to handle resistances a bit. This frees up your implement choice way more, as well.
    I'm also a bit fond of Genasi for this kind of build, because of Shocking Flame. You miss out on a +2 to Cha, but you do get both Con and Int at least. That way you can admixture Cold to get your Fire/Cold Unraveling Strike, grab Arcane Fire and go to town. Since the fire damage is a separate chunk, you also won't run into any weird vulnerability interactions so you can safely trigger both vulnerabilities. You give up all the tiefling support, of course, so no punishment (unless you go Reincarnate Champion for it in Epic, I guess, I never build Epic) and your To Hit is down two points (assuming Hellfire Blood). On the upside, you can grab a ton of other feats instead, so you might be able to make up for most of it, maybe. Hopefully. I guess depending on how the pact blade works you could use a dagger for an implement and get your MBA against Reflex instead... And obviously, Wintertouched will, as usual, give you night-permanent CA.

  10. - Top - End - #10
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    Default Re: Dead rat deserter hybrid bite.

    I would think that if you're giving up tiefling, you would want to have Mark of Contagion and other forms of Save Reduction. Otherwise you have to reapply the

    Alternative Stub:

    1: Implement Master (Orb of Imposition, maybe?)
    2: Arcane Familiar (Hand)
    4: Arcane Implement Expertise: Heavy Blade (Wait, do we really need this?)
    6: Aberrant Mark of Contagion (-2 versus OGD if hit by daily)
    8:
    10: Arcane Admixture: Cold Unraveling Strike
    11: Consume the Weak
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

  11. - Top - End - #11
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    Default Re: Dead rat deserter hybrid bite.

    Consuming the Weak is not a very good feat unless you have a way of reliably inflicting vulnerability to fire, e.g. Sarifal Feywarden.

    If you're aiming for damage, the best implement is Staff of Ruin, so plan your implement proficiency accordingly. There's also a Syberis Shard you can tack on to that which increases ongoing damage.

    If making a build around Unraveling Strike, you really need some ways of making extra attacks. Otherwise you're just using an at-will that says "if the target is still alive next turn and if you hit him again, you deal +10 damage" which is frankly not all that impressive. If you want something like that, building around Hellish Rebuke is much better.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

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  12. - Top - End - #12
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dead rat deserter hybrid bite.

    I really find that a real Elementalock does the entire trick better than a Hexblade could.

    As for the expertise feat, you'd want War Wizard's Expertise or White Lotus Dueling Expertise.

    Save reduction is nice, but not something you particularly need to build for if you're going to be reapplying it all the time, anyway. The only thing that really triggers from hitting them while they're on fire is Sympathy of Flame, which is nice but by no means a key part.

  13. - Top - End - #13
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    Default Re: Dead rat deserter hybrid bite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Consuming the Weak is not a very good feat unless you have a way of reliably inflicting vulnerability to fire, e.g. Sarifal Feywarden.
    Unraveling Strike applies vulnerability.
    If you're aiming for damage, the best implement is Staff of Ruin, so plan your implement proficiency accordingly. There's also a Syberis Shard you can tack on to that which increases ongoing damage.

    If making a build around Unraveling Strike, you really need some ways of making extra attacks. Otherwise you're just using an at-will that says "if the target is still alive next turn and if you hit him again, you deal +10 damage" which is frankly not all that impressive. If you want something like that, building around Hellish Rebuke is much better.
    Well, the idea is that we can make a hexblade out of a Blade of Summer. AFR right now, but can't a staff of ruin provide benefit via the twin implement feat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Waddacku View Post
    I really find that a real Elementalock does the entire trick better than a Hexblade could.
    Agreed. The other stub was better.
    Save reduction is nice, but not something you particularly need to build for if you're going to be reapplying it all the time, anyway. The only thing that really triggers from hitting them while they're on fire is Sympathy of Flame, which is nice but by no means a key part.
    The save reduction is better if we have some better OGDs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

  14. - Top - End - #14
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    Default Re: Dead rat deserter hybrid bite.

    By "twin implement feat" do you mean, "Dual Implement Spellcaster"?

    If so, no, Staff of Ruin won't help you (any more than any other off-hand implement would for the purposes of that feat). It doesn't actually let you use both implements simultaneously, it merely gives you a damage bonus based on the enhancement bonus of the off-hand implement, which you are not using for the attack. So you don't get the benefit of the off-hand implement's properties, if those properties only trigger on attacks made through that implement, such as the staff of ruin's item bonus to damage.

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    Default Re: Dead rat deserter hybrid bite.

    Well, a property doesn't necessarily require to use that piece of equipment, which is why I asked. Dual Implement Spellcaster lets you add the enhancement bonus, and staff of ruin only adds an item bonus to damage rolls in addition to the enhancement bonus.

    EDIT: Oh, it was updated. Now it only works when you use it with an attack. A pity.
    Last edited by Snowbluff; 2015-01-21 at 01:58 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dead rat deserter hybrid bite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    The save reduction is better if we have some better OGDs.
    Well, they take the OGD before they save (generally), so if you're reapplying it every turn anyway it doesn't make much of a difference.

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    Default Re: Dead rat deserter hybrid bite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Waddacku View Post
    Well, they take the OGD before they save (generally), so if you're reapplying it every turn anyway it doesn't make much of a difference.
    And in fact, with hellfire master and icy clutch of Stygia, you want them to save.

  18. - Top - End - #18
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    Default Re: Dead rat deserter hybrid bite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Waddacku View Post
    Well, they take the OGD before they save (generally), so if you're reapplying it every turn anyway it doesn't make much of a difference.
    Really? Hmm... yes. That's very good.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

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