Female gamers: Characters you find attractive?

[Tvtyrant]

OTOH large genitals were considered comical and unmanly in ancient Greece, which was otherwise all about giant power fantasy muscles. I'm not sure where the difference comes from honestly.

[SiuiS]

Jokes aside; I'm not native so words that sound normal to me often appear confusing or wrong in English. Besides, didn't the thread start with female gamers?

That makes sense. Okay.

Depends on the times. Greeks preferred depicting a smaller phallus. It's probably just cultural.

Of course it's cultural. We are talking about current cultural trends.

Eh, to be honest I'm not native (in my language female = woman) and I'm not too interested in the gender vs sex lecture. Too theoretical. I'll revise my previous statement, since it obviously didn't convey the intended meaning.

It's not theory for some of us, otherwise I would agree.
I think your point was made, but the method uses was a good springboard for someone else's point.

Personally I find the lesbian community's exaltation of the butch almost as problematic as mainstream society's portrayals of women.

Oh, I wasn't going for butch, exactly. I was going for physically capable. And I meant me, specifically. I find that hot attractive. Like, mentally and emotionally engaging, not just physically tittilating. Although of the two, I would pick Vanille as my example. She's not in any way less proficient for her girliness; she just happens to be a badass thief, emotional manipulator and saboteur par excellence as her base chassis, with a lot of cute pink on top. She's a much better love interest; my interest in Fang is as self insert.

But that's because that fit me, about two years ago (maybe more? I let myself go recently-ish). And I wouldn't say I'm necessarily butch, nor want butch. I stand by the idea that 'a lady should be able to take care of herself, she just shouldn't have to' in the physical sense. Ability and willingness to take a few Knicks and knocks is a good thing in my book. But I find the idea of a comrade in arms, an equal, someone I can stand back to back with while holding a knife and take on all comers, a very romantic thought.

I assume this makes me distinct. Maybe not an outlier, but individual enough that I don't try to pass off my preferences as propagated by any level of any community in part of. ^^

A violent fistfighter with a psychotic smile is not exactly a good rolemodel for men, it shouldn't be for women either.

I think the traits I listed – wider waist, strong core, scarred knuckles specifically – have different values for the two of us. The first two are construction worker traits, nothing psychotic there. Just skill at the homestead; someone who can help me able hay, build a loft, pull me from a burning wreck if needed. Physically proficient.

Only the knuckles are violent at all, and they're just as indicative of disciplined makiwara work or drills on the wing chun dummy as they are violence and fighting. Discipline, the will to enact your ideas on the world, and the bodily tokens of earning what you have instead of simply buying or lucking into them. It's very crass and blue collar of me, sure, but between two karateka, the one with hands that look like they've seen practice gets more respect from me than the one who does glove sparring and kata forever and that's it.

But beyond that it plays into a wider social discourse that devalues that which is coded female, reinforcing that or women to be worthy they need to become more like men.

It's also relevant that problem is not with things that are coded masculine but with the coding itself. I value certain things, regardless of their coding. Physical proficiency and strength are empowering traits, generally. That they are also coded masculine does not diminish this; the problem is with the trend of coding everything powerful as masculine, because this makes people think the reverse is true, and everything masculine is powerful.

Oh. And the Glasgow smileis a personal like. Like Chibs from Sons of Anarchy? hawt.

That is not to say that women who are like that should be shunned as unfeminine, though depending on how much they engage in maladaptive behavior they might need attempts to pull them away from violence just like a violent man needs,

Aye. I just personally happen to fit into a category that, in the macro sense, is unfortunate.

That's interesting. I've never heard of nor considered attempts to pull folks away from violence. Or at least, not in the form your words provide me a mental picture of.


I've cut this up a bit for formatting, rambling, and because some of my responses were needlessly defensive. If anything comes off as poorly phrased or I'm missing some key assumption, that may be why. I've had to redo several things I didn't mean to cut <_<

[Terraoblivion]

I'm sorry I misunderstood what you meant. I've had some bad experiences with the lesbian community devaluing traditionally feminine traits.

[SiuiS]

OTOH large genitals were considered comical and unmanly in ancient Greece, which was otherwise all about giant power fantasy muscles. I'm not sure where the difference comes from honestly.

And weird feet! They seem to glamourize Morton's Foot Structure, with long middle (or was it index?) toes that, frankly, would vastly impede the person's ability to be a prime athlete, let alone walk. But hey, statuary doesn't need to be realistic in all ways!

I'm sorry I misunderstood what you meant. I've had some bad experiences with the lesbian community devaluing traditionally feminine traits.

No problem. I understand it's an issue, I just forget because it's not one I deal with much. I'd rather default to explanation of my stance than aggression. Even if sometimes I default to aggression anyway, still growing ^^'

[Terraoblivion]

It doesn't affect me that much personally. But it does come up a lot in criticism of fiction or implicit disapproval of finding the kind of women I find attractive to be attractive. As well as the general sense of judging people is not something I'm capable of not noticing.

[SowZ]

It seems strange to me that any sort of idealization of men's bodies is seen as an author power fantasy while idealization of women's bodies is sexualization, even when they consist of the almost identical things. It almost verges on circular logic to me.

On a related note, I have noticed that all of the Marvel movies find an excuse to give the male heroes gratioutious topless scenes. I wonder where that falls under the realm of sexualization vs. power fantasy.



I was under the impression that most females were attracted to protective father figures. I have heard several guys say that "Finding Nemo" is a great date movie because the image of a concerned father going on a quest to protect his children really puts women in a romantic mood.

They aren't identical, though. The female character is designed to appeal to what men like. The male power fantasy is also designed to appeal to men's taste with little regard for what women find attractive.

Marvel has gone out of its way to choose male actors that women find attractive, as opposed to Hulk Hogan type actors.

[BeerMug Paladin]

I'm surprised nobody's suggested this as an example of female power fantasy, but I will.

Twilight. Honestly, I know very little about the series, other than lots of people obsessively hate it.

But to support my conjecture, I submit the hordes of young fangirls as evidence. There has to be a reason for that, right?

Oh, and in general, mary/gary/sues/stus are power fantasies. So if you notice one, you're likely looking at a power fantasy character. This of course isn't always true, as sometimes the character exists for another reason. (Like to serve a different kind of fantasy.)

Anyway, lots of good discussion about gender representation and identity in here. It's always nice to see that.

[SiuiS]

Twilight is indeed a fantasy, but power? I don't think "young girls like it" indicates specificity at all, myself.

You're dead on about Mary Sues though.

[Peebles]

So, females out there. A person tells you make a game. Any game, something you think you'll enjoy.

What is it? What characters does it have (if any, it can be Peggle or Tetris)?

Sandbox RPG with a customisable main character would do for me. Mass Effect came close, I liked that you could make Shepard any way you wanted, and how my girl Shepard actually felt, you know, a bit feminine, rather than a male character with a different skin tacked on. It might have been just that, but I felt they hid it well if that's the case.

I actually stumbled upon the deviantArt page of somebody who really loved Waluigi!

Well, well, who's a handsome fellow?

I'm surprised nobody's suggested this as an example of female power fantasy, but I will.

Twilight. Honestly, I know very little about the series, other than lots of people obsessively hate it.

But to support my conjecture, I submit the hordes of young fangirls as evidence. There has to be a reason for that, right?

Hmmm, not sure it's a power fantasy, but it is pretty dire.

There's something to be said of the amount of sway and power Bella has over the sparkly man-vampire though, even if she gains it by being a simpering moron. If it's a power fantasy, it's sending out some poor messages.

[goto124]

I was under the impression Twilight had the perfect boyfriend fantasy, which appeals to teenage girls. And then again, my impression.

If we can go beyond games, I watched Justin and the Knights of Valour, and really liked how the barmaid Talia was portrayed. Sure there is fanservice, but she's just as good and competent in combat as the male main character Justin. The movie also touches on how Talia is treated as no more than a sex object by the other male characters, and has to constantly (and literally) fight them off. Including Especially the bouncers of the inn she worked at. The movie took the time to show the combat scenes involving Talia and the bouncers/customers.

I didn't watch the whole movie, but Wikipedia says she helps Justin with a rescue towards the end, which probably involves a lot of fighting and intelligence for both people. I was hoping Talia would become a knight by then :P

I could complain about how Talia is still 'love interest of male protagonist', but to me that's nitpicky when talking about a single movie instead of a general trend.

[Kato]

Well, I didn't expect there would be women actually commenting. I assumed the thread would just die with little attention.

Though, so far not so many actual answers to the initial question, more discussion about the general idea.

And not that anyone would care but I'm disappointed nobody mentioned MGS' Big Boss/Solid Snake yet. But then that might just be my personal preference in men

[Tiki Snakes]

Twilight is indeed a fantasy, but power? I don't think "young girls like it" indicates specificity at all, myself.

You're dead on about Mary Sues though.

It's possibly worth remembering or considering that, at least as far as I've heard, there are people put there who dispute the whole concept of the "male power fantasy". Something along the lines of believing it to be little more than an argument trick, a way to shut down certain viewpoints and to frame the narrative a particular way.

I can't say I've exactly come down on either side of that particular debate, at least partially because I try to actively avoid it on account of how toxic the surrounding issues are. However, as a viewpoint, it would explain why it's so difficult to define a satisfying "female power fantasy".

FemShep was definitely best Shep. Stellar voice acting is most of the reason for the difference, but then it was a very dialogue driven series of games, so that's no small thing I think. She just managed to inject so much personality and authenticity into the performance, really made the character come alive. Really showed how flawed the idea of it being easier to identify with a silent protagonist is, to my mind.

[Peebles]

FemShep was definitely best Shep. Stellar voice acting is most of the reason for the difference, but then it was a very dialogue driven series of games, so that's no small thing I think. She just managed to inject so much personality and authenticity into the performance, really made the character come alive. Really showed how flawed the idea of it being easier to identify with a silent protagonist is, to my mind.

That's true, actually, the female voice acting was tremendous. I've never heard the male version to compare though.

Interesting 'apparently' fact: The first piece of concept art for Shepard was female - Made me smile.

[Eldan]

Sandbox RPG with a customisable main character would do for me. Mass Effect came close, I liked that you could make Shepard any way you wanted, and how my girl Shepard actually felt, you know, a bit feminine, rather than a male character with a different skin tacked on. It might have been just that, but I felt they hid it well if that's the case.

Which is interesting, given that as far as I know, the dialogue and situations were exactly the same throughout the game. So yeah, stellar voice acting. (I've also never played ManShep. Interestingly, I chose the premade black female face and so whenever I see a white FemShep, they look really strange to me.)

[Weimann]

On a side note, it's been very interesting to read the discussion between SiuiS and terraoblivion in this thread. Thanks for letting me.

[Frozen_Feet]

It should be noted that being sexually appealing can itself be power fantasy, as having appeal to other people can net you influence over them. As noted by SiuS regarding male shirtless scenes, they're not mutually exclusive - one man's sexual fantasy can be some woman's power fantasy, and vice versa. There's also potential of fringe appeal - for any character designed for mass appeal, there's going to be a noticeable crowd of fans outside the intended audience who find the character really cool for their own reasons. EDIT: It's also worth noting that sexiness / prettiness are an element in the social competition between women, so being the prettiest girl at prom (etc.) can have elements of power fantasy because it means other women are going to look up to or be envious of you.

Now, as far as the title question goes, based on my observations the only example readily coming to mind is Link, more precisely the teenaged / young adult versions from Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess. Link's also pretty popular with LGBT-folks.

I could name a score of other characters women like, just not from videogames specifically. My facebook page is full of my friends gushing about Doctor Who / Dave Tennant, Thorin from The Hobbit, Dean Winchester and the like. And of course, Tony Stark is a stable.

[HandofShadows]

I'm no social justice warrior or raging feminist or anything, but I've noticed there's a distinct lack of male eye candy in games. Male game characters can be ugly or fat or whatever, and can rely on some character development and personality without looking like knockouts as well. Then suddenly Bayonetta.

Booker DeWitt from Bioshock Infinite maybe?

[Peebles]

Booker DeWitt from Bioshock Infinite maybe?

Not really for Booker, but his voice actor, Troy Baker? Yes please.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I hate posting in 'ask women questions' threads but whatever, I typed this out already.

Spoiler: not really on topic

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They aren't identical, though. The female character is designed to appeal to what men like. The male power fantasy is also designed to appeal to men's taste with little regard for what women find attractive.

Female characters are designed to appeal to either the author or an imagined demographic. Usually they appeal to the artist's desire that they should be easy to draw before any demographic considerations are actually taken into account.

If female characters were really aimed at men in general and not just the creative team there would be a wide variety of body types on show to cover all the areas.

All characters are designed to provoke a reaction from the audience, you're not going to escape that with any amount of diversity.

The male power fantasy isn't designed to appeal to men, its designed to appeal to the broadest group of men possible.

If someone tries to tell me that Lara Croft or femShep can't be male power fantasies, only sexual fantasies, I won't be able to agree. For some men being a short cute girl who beats up lots of enemies is more of a power fantasy than doing that with a male avatar would be. I don't agree that men only identify with men and only look at women sexually, sometimes identifying with a woman is more sexual than objectifying them. Some people just like staring at female avatars asses in 3rd person games sure, but that doesn't mean others aren't actually identifying with them. Some men think Dante is cool and like telling him to kill demons but don't ever actually identify with him. I often switch between identifying and not identifying several times when playing games, sometimes I'll say "I died" and sometimes I'll say "Shepard just got herself killed" and then go back round to "I've died a lot in this section". In Skyrim I've abrubtly jumped between "I stole the gem" and "my character's rank in the Thief's Guild has risen". Sometimes I'll put on skimpy clothes because I want to oggle them for a while and then put on something else because I feel silly dressed like that.

Booker is a white guilt fantasy, he's not supposed to be appealing to men or women. He's utterly despicable. You're supposed to hate him and identify with him because he makes you hate yourself. Or something.

[HandofShadows]

Booker is a white guilt fantasy, he's not supposed to be appealing to men or women. He's utterly despicable. You're supposed to hate him and identify with him because he makes you hate yourself. Or something.

I have no idea were you get that we are supposed to hate Booker. A great many people like him despite his flaws, for some it is because he is trying to do better. Some people like him in part *because* of his flaws. And I think the "white guilt fantasy" is wrong because

Spoiler: Spoilers For Bioshock Infinite

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Booker has an indian heritage and even speaks Sioux. Opps.

The one you are supposed to hate is Comstock, not Booker.

[Eldan]

I could name a score of other characters women like, just not from videogames specifically. My facebook page is full of my friends gushing about Doctor Who / Dave Tennant, Thorin from The Hobbit, Dean Winchester and the like. And of course, Tony Stark is a stable.

Now I wonder what a statistical analysis on erotic fan fiction main characters would look like.

[Jeff the Green]

I could name a score of other characters women like, just not from videogames specifically. My facebook page is full of my friends gushing about Doctor Who / Dave Tennant, Thorin from The Hobbit, Dean Winchester and the like. And of course, Tony Stark is a stable.

Viggo Mortensen and David Boreanaz (generally as Booth rather than Angel) have come up repeatedly among my female friends. Actually, I've had a couple of first dates where we ended up gushing about how hot we both found one or the other.

[BeerMug Paladin]

Hmmm, not sure it's a power fantasy, but it is pretty dire.

There's something to be said of the amount of sway and power Bella has over the sparkly man-vampire though, even if she gains it by being a simpering moron. If it's a power fantasy, it's sending out some poor messages.

Having no personality makes it easier to be an audience insert character.

But what I was thinking of is that despite such things, she's instantly liked by all, has multiple people vying for her attention, and is described as being beautiful and charming to all. People generally do what she wants and nobody really dislikes her.

I've never read or watched it, so I don't know if that sort of thing is really in there. But power fantasy is as much about having power just outright handed to you as much as it is about using powerful skills or abilities.

As for sending poor messages, well, serial killing and violence aren't good messages either. Power fantasies aren't generally vehicles for good moral lessons. That's almost kind of the point of them. They're just supposed to be carefree and fun.

[SiuiS]

Sandbox RPG with a customisable main character would do for me. Mass Effect came close, I liked that you could make Shepard any way you wanted, and how my girl Shepard actually felt, you know, a bit feminine, rather than a male character with a different skin tacked on. It might have been just that, but I felt they hid it well if that's the case.

Femshep in the first game had her own movement chains and idle forms. It wasn't until later in the series they removed the female specific stuff and made femshep male shep with lipo and boob job.

Well, I didn't expect there would be women actually commenting. I assumed the thread would just die with little attention.

Though, so far not so many actual answers to the initial question, more discussion about the general idea.

I don't really feel like I'm your target audience. When someone says "let's ask the women what they think!" There's a cissexual heterosexual Caucasian well-off monogamous implication.

It's possibly worth remembering or considering that, at least as far as I've heard, there are people put there who dispute the whole concept of the "male power fantasy". Something along the lines of believing it to be little more than an argument trick, a way to shut down certain viewpoints and to frame the narrative a particular way.

Well, male-specific power fantasy wasn't part of that. It was just power fantasy. That's not a nonexistent argumentative technique (though dismissing something for being a fantasy of power for men is). As has been mentioned, there's nothing inherently wrong with a power fantasy. When we have problems with it, we have those problems because of the cultural undertones that come along with it's use, execution and promulgation.

It's an issue of scale, often. If I'm a cashier at a store, say, and. Homeless person comes in and asks for some free food, that's an isolated incident. When it happens fifty or sixty times in a week, that's a trend – still made of isolated incidents. That vagrant leaves upset that I couldn't make an exception for him, because to him it was that one time, what's my damage?! But to me. It's just another data pip in an ongoing trend that is eroding my bottom line.

I have no problem with power fantasies. I even encourage them! But I don't like how there are certain groups who get more clout than others, and the societal effects of those fantasies being tacitly supported by society and this encouraged.

I can't say I've exactly come down on either side of that particular debate, at least partially because I try to actively avoid it on account of how toxic the surrounding issues are. However, as a viewpoint, it would explain why it's so difficult to define a satisfying "female power fantasy".

I think you're right. It's like pornography, I can call it when I see it, but definitions are elusive. A female power fantasy is supposed to be one men don't share; it's the side of the power fantasy venndiagram that is unique to women.

That's probably a bum category though. I think we only really focus on it because of the andronormative bits of our culture; normal stuff is considered male by default. That's exclusionary enough on the surface to make folks look elsewhere for feminine fulfillment. But should it be?

On a side note, it's been very interesting to read the discussion between SiuiS and terraoblivion in this thread. Thanks for letting me.

^^

It should be noted that being sexually appealing can itself be power fantasy, as having appeal to other people can net you influence over them. As noted by SiuS regarding male shirtless scenes, they're not mutually exclusive - one man's sexual fantasy can be some woman's power fantasy, and vice versa. There's also potential of fringe appeal - for any character designed for mass appeal, there's going to be a noticeable crowd of fans outside the intended audience who find the character really cool for their own reasons. EDIT: It's also worth noting that sexiness / prettiness are an element in the social competition between women, so being the prettiest girl at prom (etc.) can have elements of power fantasy because it means other women are going to look up to or be envious of you.

The issue with "girls like to be pretty" is that it is used to silence girls who want more than prettiness, or who don't want to stick to their own kiddie table and only be competitive with other girls who also want to be pretty.

It is completely true that good looks or sex appeal are ideals for some. It's when you say "sorry, ten percent of women find being pretty to be empowering, the other ninety percent of you need to suck it up" that there's a problem.

Booker DeWitt from Bioshock Infinite maybe?

Ooh, yeah. Booker was cool. I was more interested in Elizabeth though >_>

I hate posting in 'ask women questions' threads but whatever, I typed this out already.

Me either!

All characters are designed to provoke a reaction from the audience, you're not going to escape that with any amount of diversity.

The reaction they are designed to provoke is the issue, not that they provoke them. :)

Viggo Mortensen and David Boreanaz (generally as Booth rather than Angel) have come up repeatedly among my female friends. Actually, I've had a couple of first dates where we ended up gushing about how hot we both found one or the other.

Booth was Angel?!

As for sending poor messages, well, serial killing and violence aren't good messages either. Power fantasies aren't generally vehicles for good moral lessons. That's almost kind of the point of them. They're just supposed to be carefree and fun.

That's very true. Good catch.

[VincentTakeda]

While David Tennant and Dean Winchester and Cumberbatch and Tony Stark are easy wins for this category, they're essentially the real life bishounen boys... Deep down I was really hoping someone would say Ron Swanson...

I find I'm less interested in the answers so much as I'm interested in the answers I wouldn't expect.

[Ravian]

Ooh, yeah. Booker was cool. I was more interested in Elizabeth though >_>

I think most of us can agree Elizabeth was a far more interesting character than Booker. Booker's just too... protagonisty. If that makes sense. He's only really focused on the same goal as the player, which doesn't really leave room for much personality. Obviously there's a reason for that. (the game doesn't really work if the protagonist and the player have different goals. Also he's supposed to be sort of a pawn in the whole thing.) Still would have been interesting to see more of Booker, beyond the stoic protagonist.

Spoiler: Bioshock spoilers

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For example I would have liked to see more of Comstock in him. Just to be able to understand where that sort of ambition and zeal could have developed, would have been nice.

[LordHavelock]

Having no personality makes it easier to be an audience insert character.

But what I was thinking of is that despite such things, she's instantly liked by all, has multiple people vying for her attention, and is described as being beautiful and charming to all. People generally do what she wants and nobody really dislikes her.

I've never read or watched it, so I don't know if that sort of thing is really in there. But power fantasy is as much about having power just outright handed to you as much as it is about using powerful skills or abilities.

As for sending poor messages, well, serial killing and violence aren't good messages either. Power fantasies aren't generally vehicles for good moral lessons. That's almost kind of the point of them. They're just supposed to be carefree and fun.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there. Bella Swan is a skin that any given teenage girl whose ever felt awkward or uncomfortable about themselves can slip on to feel better. Everyone likes Bella, but there's never a true justification offered for it, but the implication is that everyone sees past her social awkwardness to see the extra special snowflake that she is on the inside (she just happens to be pretty on the outside a little too, but that's not what's most important). This is especially apparent if you watch the movies with a particular trio of comedians offering a sort of farcical director's commentary, as they highlight how everyone at school seems to go out of their way to be nice to Bella on her first day at school, talk to her, flirt with her, even later in the movie, but she doesn't really respond to them or offer anything to them that would resemble friendship (but they keep liking her anyway). I read the books more or less exclusively for the point of critiquing them and I really consider Bella to fall short of being a Mary Sue. She's more like a plot device, like a super cliche chivalric romance told from the perspective of the damsel in distress, especially when you take into consideration that Bella never does anything. She lets things happen around her, to her, and just keeps loving Edward, but never really takes steps to put that love (or her fate) on her terms.

Bella doesn't have power, she is the power, and whoever has her, has it.

[VincentTakeda]

That's funny. Bella isnt the end zone. Bella is the football. I like that point of view though.

I never really noticed before how everyone in the show just immediately likes her despite being for all intents and purposes an unresponsive cold dead corpse of a person to begin with.

The idea that her charisma score is so high that it negates the fact that her level of human interaction is on the level of trees...

That's pretty funny.

[Ravian]

I've always found it amusing that in a book series about vampires, it's the human character that acts the most like a moving corpse.

[Talakeal]

It doesn't affect me that much personally. But it does come up a lot in criticism of fiction or implicit disapproval of finding the kind of women I find attractive to be attractive. As well as the general sense of judging people is not something I'm capable of not noticing.

I am not going to continue my argument about depictions as it is going to derail the thread. But I will say that I very much agree with the above statement and was going to say something very similar (albeit from a straight male point of view).