The Legend of Korra, Book 5: It's canon. Deal with it.

[Reddish Mage]

Yeah, you would. The first season of Korra really was just a grab bag of missed opportunities, wasn't it?

You do have to admit. There's a lot more packed in that one half-length season of Korra than in a full length ATLA season. The luggage was bound to explode and make a mess all over.

[Zevox]

You do have to admit. There's a lot more packed in that one half-length season of Korra than in a full length ATLA season. The luggage was bound to explode and make a mess all over.

I'll agree that they were trying to pack a lot in there, and that's part of the problem. But their handling of it definitely is as well. There are certainly elements that could have been cut down on (i.e. Pro Bending) or cut out entirely (the love triangle) to give them more time to focus on developing the actual plot - and preferably on setting up a better resolution where Korra would actually get character development that lead to her acquiring her airbending, rather than what we actually got.

[Ravian]

Well they thought they were getting a whole season to do it before Nick screwed them over. Imagine you had an entire season's worth of story you had come up with, fitting into more or less the same format that each season of The Last Airbender used. Then all of a sudden the executives tell you to tell it in half the time.

Could they have cut more to make it flow better? Definitely. But can you imagine how much they had to cut in the first place to get to that point? Twenty-six episodes would give them enough time for filler, real filler just to develop characters and stuff. As it was they needed to make something far more fast-paced, and while they did a decent effort (IMO anyway) it was simply not enough to adapt the story to the format.

[Zevox]

Well they thought they were getting a whole season to do it before Nick screwed them over.

Did they? I thought that back when the show was originally announced it was as a 12-episode mini-series, and the surprise was when we were told it was being expanded into fifty-two episodes split into four seasons. Or perhaps the creators said something about this in an interview? I've never really followed those.

That would certainly help explain the whole debacle with the first season, though. Not every problem, perhaps, but a lot of them.

[Metahuman1]

It wasn't announced till it was already made. Which means it could have been announced as a 12 ep mini series, and Nick could have told them 26 eps, given them time to write them, told them to rewrite it at the last possible second or get no show at all, and thus still screwed them over as suggested while making it look like it was always meant to be this way to try and deflect criticism onto the creators, and have a self fulfilling prophecy of "Action Show with a main character who's a girl just, won't, work!". You know, that thing they fought forever over when the show was first pitched at them? To the point of wanting to let freaking Shamalan have the last word on the franchise?


Let that sink in. Nick's Executives would rather let the live action Last Airbender Movie be the last thing the franchise get's, then have a show about an avatar who's a girl.




Why are we still even speculating that it's not all there fault?

[Zevox]

It wasn't announced till it was already made.

That seems unlikely, given it was announced quite some time before it started airing - in fact, it was delayed once after it was announced. If it was already made at that point, why wait almost two years between announcing it and airing it?

Why are we still even speculating that it's not all there fault?

Because assuming things and assigning blame based on pure speculation isn't rational in the slightest. That may help explain why season 1 had many of the problems it did, but if we have no evidence that's what happened, it's nothing but leaping to conclusions with no real basis.

[-D-]

As far as fiascos go this is what I know could have potentially messed the plot : demanding that seasons are episodic (unsure it happened one guy on this forum claimed that it did transpire); adding new seasons after greenlighting only first one (read on Wikipedia); cutting out an episode and forcing a clip show (author stated on a blog).

And all of this still doesn't explain the later barely tolerable love relationships and the god awful second season.

[Morty]

Like I've said before, I don't think Season One had any chance of working in a self-contained set of twelve episodes. They could have certainly handled some things better, but it would have only gone so far. Honestly, they didn't pack that much in there. The love triangle, annoying as it was, only took one episode, really. The reason it ended up so horrid was because, like everything else, it was half-assedly resolved in the end, its build-up abruptly cut in half. Pro-bending gets undeserved blame - if not for that, they would have had to use something else for Korra's personal growth, bringing Team Avatar together and kick-starting the revolution. It's just that even that was too much for twelve episodes that had to introduce entirely new characters, an entirely new setting and wrap it up at the end.

If cutting anything were to help, I'd ditch Korra's "spiritual side" and unlocking the Avatar State, both of which were vaguely hinted at and then suddenly handed to her right at the end. Focus on her airbending and dealing with bender/non-bender tension. Which is to say, show some actual tension and maybe don't sideline non-benders. But that would require the season being written with the later ones in mind. As far as we can tell, it was meant to be Korra's entire story.

Whether they're to blame for its having only this many episodes to work with, we'll probably never know. They say they were happy with having a shorter season. This may or may not be true. I'm willing to believe that they may have been planning for a longer season but then had it cut, because Book One gives this kind of impression. But I also don't think it matters. It's just assigning blame - the damage was done. LoK was off to a bumpy start, and it irrevocably wasted an opportunity to explore a big part of the Avatarverse, and to have an interesting, subversive plot.

[Metahuman1]

That seems unlikely, given it was announced quite some time before it started airing - in fact, it was delayed once after it was announced. If it was already made at that point, why wait almost two years between announcing it and airing it?


Because assuming things and assigning blame based on pure speculation isn't rational in the slightest. That may help explain why season 1 had many of the problems it did, but if we have no evidence that's what happened, it's nothing but leaping to conclusions with no real basis.

Was it really that long? I could swear the time between the formal announcement and the airing was shorter. Note: The fans were speculating about it forever before the formal announcement, and I know that went for quite some time.




And, yet, that's kinda what's being done. It's just that instead of assuming it's the networks fault, were assuming it's all the creators fault. Were still leaping to that conclusion and assigning blame with no real way of knowing the networks were the one's responsible, except for the numerous things we have that indicate that the networks were doing crap. (Clip show from last second budget cuts, not advertising, jerking the venu and scheduled around relentlessly, not green lighting seasons 2, 3 and 4 till after 1 had run it's course, outsourcing animation during season 2 which lead to a drastic fall in quality, throwing a fit and refusing for a protracted period of time to even do the first season unless the creators redid it to make the main character a boy becuse having a girl be the hero just could not work.)

[-D-]

outsourcing animation during season 2 which lead to a drastic fall in quality

Eh? AFAIK both Avatar the Last Airbender and Legend of Korra are outsourced to Japan/Korea. The writers stated in an interview the scene with guy flipping **** and frothing from the mouth was merely a note for animators overseas - make the guy look overjoyed or something and the animators filled in the blanks. They switched studios in season 2 from Mir to Pierrot.

Incidentally, Mir is a new studio (behind LoL Jinx video) and Pierrot is the older Japanese studio.

And, yet, that's kinda what's being done. It's just that instead of assuming it's the networks fault, were assuming it's all the creators fault.

Sure executive meddling made some things worse, but some things just can't be reasonably attributed to Nick. Based on what we know, you can hate Nick for clip show, for Season 1 finale, lack of breather episodes and somewhat break neck pace. What they didn't mandate was Season 2 or making all romances awful.

[Zevox]

Was it really that long? I could swear the time between the formal announcement and the airing was shorter. Note: The fans were speculating about it forever before the formal announcement, and I know that went for quite some time.

Yes. The show was announced at Comic-Con in 2010. Originally it was to start airing in 2011, but that got moved back to 2012, and ultimately started just a couple of months shy of the two year mark since the original announcement.

And, yet, that's kinda what's being done. It's just that instead of assuming it's the networks fault, were assuming it's all the creators fault.

The creators are guaranteed to bear at least some responsibility for how the final product comes out, and in most cases should bear most or all of it, so yeah, that's the default, for both credit and blame. And even so, I don't deny that the network could have caused some of the problems, I only say that it's foolish to claim that they did something specific - such as telling the creators they'd have 26 episodes to work with and then cutting that number in half mid-production - without actual evidence of it.

Based on what we know, you can hate Nick for [...] Season 1 finale,

How so?

[Morty]

I won't speak for -D-, but the Book One finale is the culmination of its pacing problems. Basically all plots are cut short and rushed to a completely unsatisfying resolution. If we choose to blame the network for forcing the season into 12 episodes, then the finale is on them.

It's arguable whether Book One wasted its time. But Book Two undeniably did. The whole political plot with the annexation of the Southern Water Tribe is a waste of time, as a result of which the show couldn't properly present the spirits and the Spirit World, which were supposedly the focus of the season. The results are pretty disastrous, and carry over to the third and fourth season. Even though I liked them, I just couldn't give a good goddamn about anything that involved spirits. Also, it served to make a good part of the cast, Korra included, look like complete idiots.

[-D-]

You can hate Nick for Season 1 finale

How so?

The book 1 was supposed to be only book. The way writers ended is mainly because - hey let's end Korra on a good note in last five minutes. It's why season 1 doesn't mesh with season 2. Season 2 was basically OMIGOSH NEW PLOT! And by new plot I mean things that do some stuff and involve spirits, which never again prominently appear in the movie - except as fuel for Kuvira's Ray weapons.

Again, here I do wonder why instead of suicidal Korra they couldn't have Korra, deciding to go out for search for a cure with Mako, Asami and Bolin? Apparently because it would be too dark to have an Avatar without four elemental powers (assuming you can't write Adventures of Korra as a comic) brought down to one.

[Zevox]

I won't speak for -D-, but the Book One finale is the culmination of its pacing problems. Basically all plots are cut short and rushed to a completely unsatisfying resolution. If we choose to blame the network for forcing the season into 12 episodes, then the finale is on them.

If they cut it from a larger number, perhaps. If it was always supposed to be 12 episodes - and again, that's what was announced in 2010, two years before it aired - then the fault lies with the creators for failing to pace things properly despite knowing how much time they had to work with.

The book 1 was supposed to be only book. The way writers ended is mainly because - hey let's end Korra on a good note in last five minutes.

Sure, but it was the writers who set things up so that those last few minutes had so many problems needing such quick resolution. They didn't for example need to make Korra and Lin lose their bending, or set things up so that Amon would only be exposed by extreme stupidity on his part - they chose to do those things. It would be entirely possible to resolve the story in a happy manner without needing to rush resolutions out in an unsatisfying manner, it would just require some substantial re-writing to how that last episode or two play out.

[Morty]

If they cut it from a larger number, perhaps. If it was always supposed to be 12 episodes - and again, that's what was announced in 2010, two years before it aired - then the fault lies with the creators for failing to pace things properly despite knowing how much time they had to work with.

I would rather call it trying to pour twenty gallons into a twelve gallon container, which will always be a mess no matter how you do it, but yeah.

[Zevox]

I would rather call it trying to pour twenty gallons into a twelve gallon container, which will always be a mess no matter how you do it, but yeah.

*shrug* Same thing, really. If they knew how much time they had going in, then trying to fit in more than they could is on them as well.

[MLai]

*shrug* Same thing, really. If they knew how much time they had going in, then trying to fit in more than they could is on them as well.

Assigning blame to only Nick assumes that these 2 writers are otherwise masters of pacing, which if we look at ATLA's run was decidedly not the case. The last ATLA season had lopsided pacing even with the more-than-generous seasons the writers had to work with from beginning to end.

[Zevox]

Assigning blame to only Nick assumes that these 2 writers are otherwise masters of pacing, which if we look at ATLA's run was decidedly not the case. The last ATLA season had lopsided pacing even with the more-than-generous seasons the writers had to work with from beginning to end.

Agreed. I think they made a significant mistake with that one in deciding that the Day of Black Sun event would be the exact middle of the season, when they had very little of significance to the plot to do before it, and had Zuko joining the group after. It would've been nice to have more episodes of him as a member of the gang, especially ones where the entire group was together, rather than just a series of episodes with just him and one of the others.

[Ravian]

Assigning blame to only Nick assumes that these 2 writers are otherwise masters of pacing, which if we look at ATLA's run was decidedly not the case. The last ATLA season had lopsided pacing even with the more-than-generous seasons the writers had to work with from beginning to end.

Ironically one could say the third season might be better served condensed into a half season (more than Korra's first season was at lest.)

Really the writers would do best somewhere in between. TLA had notorious filler problems, but Korra didn't have enough to space everything out right. Then again certain plots are better served by certain season lengths. A shorter season is typically better when the plot is fairly dense and doesn't really need that much spacing out. That's why Season Three was too fillery (since it really could be summed up in a few missions and a couple of infiltration style missions spaced throughout.) Meanwhile Korra really hit its stride in the last two seasons because the plot was fairly straightforward and quick-paced (particularly since they were already able to establish the characters.)

More world-building plots are better served by longer seasons. The first two books of TLA were essentially rode-trips. There was urgency with the comet plot, but until the library arc there was never a plan that could be accomplished without time (something that worked well with establishing the world). Similarly Season one of Korra could have really used the longer format since they had to establish how the world had changed in that time, flesh out the new characters, give Korra her spiritual development arc, all the while going through the actual plot.

Granted though I still wonder if a whole season would have been appropriate for Korra season one at all. It would definitely have the time to tie up the plots, but who knows how many episodes of pro-bending we might have had to sit through.

(Korra season two is an outlier in all this. I agree it was the weakest of the seasons, but I don't think the pacing was really the problem in all of it. Really I blame Unaloq more than anything. One could say that a longer season might be able to give them more time to make Unaloq into a better villain, but it still seems like too much time for another relatively straightforward plot. (Maybe they could just give another half-dozen episodes of Wan and everyone would be happy. ))

[MLai]

(Korra season two is an outlier in all this. I agree it was the weakest of the seasons, but I don't think the pacing was really the problem in all of it. Really I blame Unaloq more than anything. One could say that a longer season might be able to give them more time to make Unaloq into a better villain, but it still seems like too much time for another relatively straightforward plot. (Maybe they could just give another half-dozen episodes of Wan and everyone would be happy. ))

Ha, no. Of all the problems with S02, I hated the Wan arc the most for giving us a retcon equivalent of midichlorians. The Raava-Vaatu cliche is the worst retcon to ever hit Avatar-verse worldbuilding.

Unalaq could have worked as a villain, if he had a point regarding the spirits. But since the writers themselves have no idea what they wanted to do with spirits besides being magical Disney animals, Unalaq didn't either.

[Ravian]

Ha, no. Of all the problems with S02, I hated the Wan arc the most for giving us a retcon equivalent of midichlorians. The Raava-Vaatu cliche is the worst retcon to ever hit Avatar-verse worldbuilding.

Suit yourself, personally I loved it, it lent a particular feel to the history, gave a real starting place for the transition from humble spiritual origins to the present mechanized world of Korra.

It sort of reminded me of Princess Mononoke, actually. Humans living in a big world full of dangerous spirits, with a strong folklore element to it.

I can sort of see where you're coming from. On the surface both bending and the force are largely similar. Both being magics that previously had little explanation and having strong spiritual elements. The difference is I felt that the explaining of bending worked far better than it did with the Force. Midichlorians took a altogether jarring element to the theme they had previously established (suddenly throwing in a wholly biological explanation for a spiritual magic.) Bending had already hinted at its origins, (namely with the lion turtle at TLA's finale.) and gave us an interesting history that still nearly tied it together without being overly jarring.

Raava and Vaatu may have been a tad cliche, but it was interesting to see what could be equated to the Gods of the Avatar-verse.

[Zevox]

Suit yourself, personally I loved it, it lent a particular feel to the history, gave a real starting place for the transition from humble spiritual origins to the present mechanized world of Korra.

I'd agree. Avatar Wan's backstory felt suitably mythic, and the world he came from suitably alien to the one we see in TLA and LoK, to serve as a good origin myth for the Avatar and the setting. It was a fun change of pace from, well, everything else about that season.

[AdmiralCheez]

Assigning blame to only Nick assumes that these 2 writers are otherwise masters of pacing, which if we look at ATLA's run was decidedly not the case. The last ATLA season had lopsided pacing even with the more-than-generous seasons the writers had to work with from beginning to end.

Didn't the last season of ATLA happen to fall in the middle of the writer's strike? I seem to remember something about that messing with a bunch of shows from that time frame.


On the Wan arc, I thought it was okay... if it was told in one of the supplemental comics. What I didn't like about it was that it used up two entire episodes in a show that already suffered from crippling pacing issues. Essentially, all it did was introduce a secondary antagonist. It didn't even feature the main characters of the show, let alone advance the plot. And really, the life story of Avatar Wan has next to no influence on Korra, her friends, or the water tribe civil war arc. It barely even touches on the spirit conflict, only to point out that Wan was responsible for separating Raava/Vaatu and exiling the spirits to the spirit world. While it might have been an interesting bit of lore, the revelations it contained did not need to take up two out of fourteen episodes.

[MLai]

I would've been fine with the Wan arc if:
-- No Raava, no Vaatu.
-- No talking Disney animals.
-- The Lion Turtles are just there, silent friends of humanity allowing them to build on their backs, but no trivial "Gift of Bending" which had all the spirituality of a Blockbuster rental.

Basically, remove everything that made it not like a Hayao Miyazaki myth.

On the Wan arc, I thought it was okay... Essentially, all it did was introduce a secondary antagonist. It didn't even feature the main characters of the show, let alone advance the plot. And really, the life story of Avatar Wan has next to no influence on Korra, her friends, or the water tribe civil war arc. It barely even touches on the spirit conflict, only to point out that Wan was responsible for separating Raava/Vaatu and exiling the spirits to the spirit world. While it might have been an interesting bit of lore, the revelations it contained did not need to take up two out of fourteen episodes.

This is a good point. Regardless whether or not I liked the retcon, the Wan arc didn't introduce anything necessary for the story. We still don't know why spirits are necessary for the world. Bending is the same. Korra didn't need anything from Wan except information regarding the secondary antagonist, whose only role is to undercut Unalaq and make him a "Destroy The World" cartoon villain.

[BeerMug Paladin]

I thought it was pretty neat to see a third time period for the setting. I liked seeing the creativity of the writers and it was a pretty decent origin story for the avatar. Sometimes, fun is enough to justify things.

I also liked the one subplot where Kitara tries to get Momo to bring her and Sokka some medicine and by the end, Momo has brought them practically everything except medicine. That was also pointless, though.

[LaZodiac]

You know what might of been a nifty twist? Unalaq, for lack of a better term, wins. He succeeds in putting Vaatu in power. And this causes nothing because all it means is "the world will change". Vaatu didn't want to destroy the world, he just wanted to be in charge and force it to change.

Because in a way this IS the ending we got, only Unalaq gets killed in a giant kaiju battle instead of awaiting the destruction of the modern world so spirits can take over...only for nothing of real note to happen other then the spirit portals remaining open. Seeing him fall to his knees in despair as he wins, but still fails at his personal goals, would be kind of funny.

[-D-]

I would've been fine with the Wan arc if:
-- No Raava, no Vaatu.
-- No talking Disney animals.
-- The Lion Turtles are just there, silent friends of humanity allowing them to build on their backs

Basically, remove everything that made it not like a Hayao Miyazaki myth.

Sums most of my thoughts. Especially the slightly disappointing second season. At the time second season ended, Nostalgia Critic went - I'd love to see what they'll do with the new awesome setting of humans and people living together. And season three gave us an answer. Nothing. The spirits were there to decorate stuff. And tart stuff up.

"Gift of Bending" which had all the spirituality of a Blockbuster rental.

This gave me a chuckle. I'd actually compare Lion Turles to gum ball dispenser, but this analogy works way better. Bending Rental.

Sure, but it was the writers who set things up so that those last few minutes had so many problems needing such quick resolution. They didn't for example need to make Korra and Lin lose their bending, or set things up so that Amon would only be exposed by extreme stupidity on his part - they chose to do those things. It would be entirely possible to resolve the story in a happy manner without needing to rush resolutions out in an unsatisfying manner, it would just require some substantial re-writing to how that last episode or two play out.

I don't wash authors of all blame, it's one of few places the meddling definitely affected the plot. Partly because every season must be self contained and they screwed pacing with their Love Triangles and Pro-Bending. I disagree with people saying Korra needed Pro Bending, she could have just as easily ended in some slum, meeting Mako and Bolin there. Maybe she could even witness some punk ass bender kids pushing around adult benders, before found and rescued by Tenzin and Co.

[MLai]

I actually don't mind the cringe-worthy love triangle, and the pro-bending shenanigans. I'll be honest: I was grinning while watching those segments. Hey I'm watching a cartoon, not reading a textbook.

What I do mind is Amon getting the shaft due to lack of time and plot space. I'd probably be happier if Amon and the whole Equalist arc didn't exist in season 01, and the entire season is about love triangles, pro-bending, and problem-of-the-week episodes... with a laid-back season arc about Korra learning airbending.

[BeerMug Paladin]

I disagree with people saying Korra needed Pro Bending, she could have just as easily ended in some slum, meeting Mako and Bolin there.

Actually, it was kind of a big point that Korra was frustrated with things she didn't get immediately, and had no patience to learn. Likewise, Tenzin didn't know how to teach someone that wasn't willing to just be a totally captive student. He couldn't adapt his methods to suit the needs of a different sort of student.

Pro-Bending was something that Korra liked but she was completely terrible at. But since she liked the activity, she had the patience to go through the hard work and effort to learn the skills the sport took.

Tenzin realizing that Korra was learning lessons of patience (and careful graceful movement) from Pro-Bending was pretty important too. He didn't see anything worthwhile in the sport, thinking it was just a waste of time, but eventually saw that Korra's love for the sport could teach her lessons that he was too inflexible to accomplish.

It's an important part of the story for both character arcs in the first season.

[Morty]

I don't think pro-bending was needed, really, but it wasn't pointless, either. One way or the other, the show needed to glue the Team Avatar together and provide an avenue for Korra to start changing her attitude. Pro-bending had the bonus of showing how bending had changed since Aang's time and how society puts bending athletes on a pedestal, making it a good target for resentful non-benders. In the end, Korra's character development was cut short halfway through and non-benders ended up irrelevant as usual, of course. One can argue if something else might have worked better than pro-bending, but I don't think we can say it with certainty.

Maybe it would have been cool if Korra had started off with a mini-arc where she pro-bends, meets her Krew, engages in a love triangle - she was a teenager who came to a big city after being cooped up her whole life - and learns airbending. Then the Equalists rear their heads and she has to deal with it. But that's just a wistful what if.

As far as the Spirit World in Book Two goes, it was a mess. The problem was a lack of context. In ATLA, spirits had a vague animistic influence on the world, but they were peripheral. In Book Two of LoK, they were put front and centre, but no additional explanation or background were given, and the animistic themes were gone in favour of... well, talking animals. Why were the worlds out of balance? What does it mean for them to be balanced? How is the Avatar supposed to keep them balanced? Why should humans respect spirits? Why is it better that the portals stayed open? We don't know, so it's very difficult to care.