The Adventurer (Fighter/Rogue Base Class Combination)(WIP)

[CrusaderJoe]

Spoiler: Blah blah blah info

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This class will combine the Rogue and Fighter into one new class. This can be used in a typical game but rogues and fighters may feel shafted. The Rogue is the most well made class in core 5e but the fighter type is still needed. Note, my laptop died and I'm using my phone, please excuse the lack of editing.

The Adventurer

HP: As Training (Fighter d10 or Rogue d8)
Saving Throws: Strength and Constitution or Dexterity
Skills: Choose any 3
Tools: Choose one type of tools
Equipment: Gain 175 gp to buy equipment. Or use package.

Level 1: Adventurer Training, Fighting Style
Level 2: Cunning Action
Level 3: Adventurer Archetype
Level 4: ASI
Level 5: Uncanny Dodge
Level 6: Fighting Style
Level 7: Evasion
Level 8: ASI
Level 9: Adventurer Archetype Feature
Level 10: ASI
Level 11: Reliable Talent
Level 12: ASI
Level 13: Adventurer Archetype Feature
Level 14: Blindsense
Level 15: Slippery Mind
Level 16: ASI
Level 17: Adventurer Archetype Feature
Level 18: Elusive
Level 19: ASI
Level 20: Stroke of Luck

New Class Features

Adventurer Training: Choose a training style, this package determines how you deal with combat and your HP.

• Rogueish Training: Gain sneak attack, proficiency with all simple + finesse weapons, and thieve's cant. Gain d8 hit die.
  
• Fighter Training: Gain proficiency with all armor, shields, and all weapons. Additionally you gain Extra attack at level 5, 11, and 20. Gain d10 hit die.

Fighting Style: Choose from the following options. Archery, Defense, Dueling, Expertise, Great Weapon Fighting, Protection, or Two-Weapon Fighting.

Gain an additional choice at level 6. This does not stack with the choice you made at level 1, however if you choose Expertise it can be applied to two new skills.

Adventurer Archetype: Choose a Rogueish or Fighter archetype.

Changes to the Fighter archetypes are presented below.

All features gained at level 3 stay at level 3.

• Champion: Remarkable Athlete (Lv. 9), Additional Fighting Style and Superior Critical (Lv. 13), and Survivor (Lv. 17).
  
• Battle Master: Know Your Enemy (Lv. 9), Improved Combat Superiority and Relentless (Lv. 13), and Improved Combat Superiority (Lv.17).
  
• Eldritch Knight: War Magic (Lv. 9), Eldritch Strike and Arcane Charge (Lv. 13), Improved War Magic (Lv. 17)

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I will want to combine other classes together, which will come in the form if other posts.

Fighter/Rogue: The Adventurer
Cleric/Wizard: The Mage
Barbarian/Druid: The Vanguard of nature
Monk/Ranger: The Hermit Warrior
Sorcerer/Warlock: The Scourge (pacts alter you blood giving you bloodlines and such)
Bard/Paladin: The Devoted (oath of passion)

Could probably use some more work but this can give you the simple but interesting option (Champion Adventurer can still pick up damage but has other options that don't make them a bore) and more complex options (Eldritch Knight/Arcane Trickster Adventurer).

[Kane0]

Neat idea, I like it. Do you mind if i take a crack at it?

HP: d8, sounds solid
Saves: Hard to pick, I'd package it with what path you choose
Skills: 3 is a good number
Tools: A free tool is a nice touch, and can be used for thieves tools
Equipment: shouldnt be hard to come up with a couple choices. How about:
A Chain shirt or leather
A dagger
An explorer's pack
A martial ranged weapon with ammo and a simple melee weapon OR a simple ranged with ammo and a martial melee weapon
Tool you are proficient in

Level 1:
Picking your path at level 1 would be a good thing. I'd make it the path of the warrior (the fighter type), the path of the scout (the skilled type) or the path of the adept (the partial caster type). Each one would give its own save proficiencies (str/con, dex/con, int/con respectively) and either sneak attack (maybe not the whole progression, perhaps up to 5d6), extra attack (again not the full progression, probably up to 3 attacks) or casting capability (perhaps on par with the Paladin and Ranger using slightly broader spell options).
A fighting style is also a good pick here, i'd give the full range of choices.

Level 2:
A choice of cunning action or action surge would fit well here, they are both action economy abusers. Perhaps also a third option for casters where they can burn a spell slot for affecting the action economy in the same way.

Level 3:
Here would be where your path gives you things that the archetypes from the parent classes would be inserted, like the champions crit range or the thiefs fast hands. War magic / ranged ledgerdemain would also fit well here.

level 4: ASI #1

Level 5: extra attack would probably fit here

level 6: Uncanny dodge fits well

level 7: the second range of path abilities, just like level 3

level 8: ASI #2

level 9: Indomitable seems good for here

level 10: ASI #3

level 11: the third lot of path abilities like 3 and 7

level 12: ASI #4

level 13: reliable talent seems a decent fit

level 14: blindsense seems good

level 15: second adomitable seems good

level 16: ASI #5

level 17: the fourth path abilities like 3, 7 and 11

level 18: Slippery mind seems good

level 19: ASI #6

level 20: Stroke of luck fits

Just gotta be careful of neither being too much of both nor stepping too hard on either one. I think my version does a bit too much rogue.

[CrusaderJoe]

Neat idea, I like it. Do you mind if i take a crack at it?

HP: d8, sounds solid
Saves: Hard to pick, I'd package it with what path you choose
Skills: 3 is a good number
Tools: A free tool is a nice touch, and can be used for thieves tools
Equipment: shouldnt be hard to come up with a couple choices. How about:
A Chain shirt or leather
A dagger
An explorer's pack
A martial ranged weapon with ammo and a simple melee weapon OR a simple ranged with ammo and a martial melee weapon
Tool you are proficient in

Level 1:
Picking your path at level 1 would be a good thing. I'd make it the path of the warrior (the fighter type), the path of the scout (the skilled type) or the path of the adept (the partial caster type). Each one would give its own save proficiencies (str/con, dex/con, int/con respectively) and either sneak attack (maybe not the whole progression, perhaps up to 5d6), extra attack (again not the full progression, probably up to 3 attacks) or casting capability (perhaps on par with the Paladin and Ranger using slightly broader spell options).
A fighting style is also a good pick here, i'd give the full range of choices.

Level 2:
A choice of cunning action or action surge would fit well here, they are both action economy abusers. Perhaps also a third option for casters where they can burn a spell slot for affecting the action economy in the same way.

Level 3:
Here would be where your path gives you things that the archetypes from the parent classes would be inserted, like the champions crit range or the thiefs fast hands. War magic / ranged ledgerdemain would also fit well here.

level 4: ASI #1

Level 5: extra attack would probably fit here

level 6: Uncanny dodge fits well

level 7: the second range of path abilities, just like level 3

level 8: ASI #2

level 9: Indomitable seems good for here

level 10: ASI #3

level 11: the third lot of path abilities like 3 and 7

level 12: ASI #4

level 13: reliable talent seems a decent fit

level 14: blindsense seems good

level 15: second adomitable seems good

level 16: ASI #5

level 17: the fourth path abilities like 3, 7 and 11

level 18: Slippery mind seems good

level 19: ASI #6

level 20: Stroke of luck fits

Just gotta be careful of neither being too much of both nor stepping too hard on either one. I think my version does a bit too much rogue.

Well with the adventurer you wouldn't have a rogue or fighter base class at all. So you want a oath that is rogue and is fighter and is a mix. The thing is that the fighter base class is terrible. Cunning Action gives Bonus Actions, a lot of things give bonus actions. Action Surge is the abuse of the action economy because it gives you an entire new set of action(s).

Extra Attack needs to be opposite of sneak attack. This way you both oaths have their way of doing damage.

[Submortimer]

Well with the adventurer you wouldn't have a rogue or fighter base class at all. So you want a oath that is rogue and is fighter and is a mix. The thing is that the fighter base class is terrible. Cunning Action gives Bonus Actions, a lot of things give bonus actions. Action Surge is the abuse of the action economy because it gives you an entire new set of action(s).

Extra Attack needs to be opposite of sneak attack. This way you both oaths have their way of doing damage.

Totally subjective. The Fighter, as a class, is as well made as the rogue in 5e. Action surge is a FANTASTIC ability, and makes the fighter stand out: it lets him break the rules of combat, once per short rest, in a way that no other class can. It makes him unique. Additionally, the three archetypes are well made, fun to play, and stay consistently useful thought 20 levels.

One of the big problems you have here is that, if you're just trying to do away with the fighter altogether, lots of the abilities don't make any sense for the types of fighters a lot of people like to play. If I want to play a knight, or a Brigand with heavy armor, why do I have uncanny dodge and improved evasion.

I'm not sure what you have against Action surge, but what you've presented here is pretty much an unneeded mess.

[CrusaderJoe]

Totally subjective. The Fighter, as a class, is as well made as the rogue in 5e. Action surge is a FANTASTIC ability, and makes the fighter stand out: it lets him break the rules of combat, once per short rest, in a way that no other class can. It makes him unique. Additionally, the three archetypes are well made, fun to play, and stay consistently useful thought 20 levels.

One of the big problems you have here is that, if you're just trying to do away with the fighter altogether, lots of the abilities don't make any sense for the types of fighters a lot of people like to play. If I want to play a knight, or a Brigand with heavy armor, why do I have uncanny dodge and improved evasion.

I'm not sure what you have against Action surge, but what you've presented here is pretty much an unneeded mess.

In terms of game design Action Surge is the worst class feature made (OK...ok... So favored enemy is...). At level 2 it breaks the action economy to pieces. Terrible. It is a lazy way of making a class feature. It isn't about how effective the feature is and actually it isnt eveb all that effective for the fighter till higher levels (casters dipping fighter 2 get huge benefits right away). All and all the design of this feature is terrible.

It isn't even fun until later levels or you MC. Action surge in this game is a lazy way of trying to put a bow on crap. If making one additional attack is so great then why is twf frowned upon? Even on a fighter?

Then you have indomitable, great idea, except any save you fail that you want indomitable for (Wis/Cha) will probably have a high chance of failing again since you aren't proficient with the save. So you have a feature that really only helps you when something targets strength or con, which is great except a caster won't target those saving throws versus a fighter (unless they are being ran stupidly/DM is holding back).

The fighter can kill, no one is debating that, however all versions of the fighter are vastly lacking because the core fighter is lacking. The fighter has no options or interesting things to do that others can't emulate. Heck, the sorcerer gets a version of action surge which is miles better because you an twin/quicken spells that you don't have to MC to get (EK aren't known for their offensive spell btw, most use their spells defensively)/

Plus, there is no reason that the rogue and fighter are two different classes.

With the rogue's base chassis you can make a fighter or a rogue or some combo in between.

It reminds me a lot of the 4e ranger who at one point was the only duel wielder. One of the best strikers in the game, but they were boring. The fighter (action surge) is boring. This is 2015, if you can't make an I testing simple fighter then you don't need to be developing games.

Action surge would be better if you had stuff to use it on but between the lackluster maneuvers, defensive spells, or "I mod and attack" it is wasted on the fighter.

[Amnoriath]

It isn't even fun until later levels or you MC. Action surge in this game is a lazy way of trying to put a bow on crap. If making one additional attack is so great then why is twf frowned upon? Even on a fighter?

Then you have indomitable, great idea, except any save you fail that you want indomitable for (Wis/Cha) will probably have a high chance of failing again since you aren't proficient with the save. So you have a feature that really only helps you when something targets strength or con, which is great except a caster won't target those saving throws versus a fighter (unless they are being ran stupidly/DM is holding back).

The fighter can kill, no one is debating that, however all versions of the fighter are vastly lacking because the core fighter is lacking. The fighter has no options or interesting things to do that others can't emulate. Heck, the sorcerer gets a version of action surge which is miles better because you an twin/quicken spells that you don't have to MC to get (EK aren't known for their offensive spell btw, most use their spells defensively)/

Plus, there is no reason that the rogue and fighter are two different classes.

With the rogue's base chassis you can make a fighter or a rogue or some combo in between.

It reminds me a lot of the 4e ranger who at one point was the only duel wielder. One of the best strikers in the game, but they were boring. The fighter (action surge) is boring. This is 2015, if you can't make an I testing simple fighter then you don't need to be developing games.

Action surge would be better if you had stuff to use it on but between the lackluster maneuvers, defensive spells, or "I mod and attack" it is wasted on the fighter.

1. At that level it isn't at all frowned upon. In fact it deals the most damage. It just is a style that doesn't scale all that well through the levels because of the bonus action attack. You forgot about the Ready, Dodge, Search, Use Object, and Help options as well as any others the DM may create for the sake of the campaign or allowed to beat spells with.
2. Okay, assuming for the sake of argument that it is a caster when of course there are a variety of other things they could be facing and that it is a Human Fighter. The Human Fighter has two more feats over the caster to get Resilient. Wisdom is the most important save by far. So that leaves Charisma and Intelligence. While there are a couple of nasty Charisma save spells they don't actually deal damage or really even that much of a condition. A couple of illusions do have Intelligence saves but either they don't deal damage or very little but illusions allow Search actions with Investigation to overcome them. So in order to kill or inflict a severe condition on a Fighter they have to go for the others.
3. Yes there is. A rogue is defined by their prowess in skills and uncanny nature to avoid harm. Fighters are defined by their various expertise in fighting and training. While there is overlap arguably there is much overlap between other classes. Warlocks/Sorcerers, Barbarians/Rangers, Paladins/Clerics..etc. Then of course there is what ever a concept brings with whatever MC is going on. The problem here is you are trying to have a generic class that really only fits a light, wandering character mold.

[CrusaderJoe]

1. At that level it isn't at all frowned upon. In fact it deals the most damage. It just is a style that doesn't scale all that well through the levels because of the bonus action attack. You forgot about the Ready, Dodge, Search, Use Object, and Help options as well as any others the DM may create for the sake of the campaign or allowed to beat spells with.
2. Okay, assuming for the sake of argument that it is a caster when of course there are a variety of other things they could be facing and that it is a Human Fighter. The Human Fighter has two more feats over the caster to get Resilient. Wisdom is the most important save by far. So that leaves Charisma and Intelligence. While there are a couple of nasty Charisma save spells they don't actually deal damage or really even that much of a condition. A couple of illusions do have Intelligence saves but either they don't deal damage or very little but illusions allow Search actions with Investigation to overcome them. So in order to kill or inflict a severe condition on a Fighter they have to go for the others.
3. Yes there is. A rogue is defined by their prowess in skills and uncanny nature to avoid harm. Fighters are defined by their various expertise in fighting and training. While there is overlap arguably there is much overlap between other classes. Warlocks/Sorcerers, Barbarians/Rangers, Paladins/Clerics..etc. Then of course there is what ever a concept brings with whatever MC is going on. The problem here is you are trying to have a generic class that really only fits a light, wandering character mold.

2: Yeah you have to build a niche build in order for indomitable to be useful. As I said, if you already have a good chance of passing the save then indomitable works fine as is.not so much if you have a good chance of failing the save. They could have made this into legendary resistance and it would have been fine.

3: I wouldn't mind for less core classes. However, a lot of the rogues abilities emulate being light on your feat or being well armored. Fluff it either way you want but having Uncanny Dodge being you roll into a strike or move your shield into position works just fine. Also armor isn't all that restrictive as people think.

Evading a fireball? One adventurer may jump out of the way while the other crosses their arms and quickly covers their weak points and the fireball doesn't hurt as much.

So yes you can make either type of class if you want. Just atop having such a conservative (not politics) view of fantasy and this works out just fine.

Edit: I'm done with the action surge debate. It isn't needed in this class because it has other options that don't make dipping two levels insanely good for everyone.

The defensive abilities of the rogue actually works to make armor act more... Realistic... In a way... Not that I need realism in my fantasy game but things like uncanny dodge works pretty well. Being attacked by a dragon? Uncanny Dodge to pull my shield up to shield myself from the claw or my sword up to parry the attack (and without forgetting a short rest mechanic!). Firebreath coming my way? Using evasion I pull my shield to block or use my sword to swipe a path through the flame. Isn't that a trope or something? Fire breathing dragon doesn't hurt the knight because the shield blocks the fire?

[Amnoriath]

2: Yeah you have to build a niche build in order for indomitable to be useful. As I said, if you already have a good chance of passing the save then indomitable works fine as is.not so much if you have a good chance of failing the save. They could have made this into legendary resistance and it would have been fine.

3: I wouldn't mind for less core classes. However, a lot of the rogues abilities emulate being light on your feat or being well armored. Fluff it either way you want but having Uncanny Dodge being you roll into a strike or move your shield into position works just fine. Also armor isn't all that restrictive as people think.

Evading a fireball? One adventurer may jump out of the way while the other crosses their arms and quickly covers their weak points and the fireball doesn't hurt as much.

So yes you can make either type of class if you want. Just atop having such a conservative (not politics) view of fantasy and this works out just fine.

Edit: I'm done with the action surge debate. It isn't needed in this class because it has other options that don't make dipping two levels insanely good for everyone.

The defensive abilities of the rogue actually works to make armor act more... Realistic... In a way... Not that I need realism in my fantasy game but things like uncanny dodge works pretty well. Being attacked by a dragon? Uncanny Dodge to pull my shield up to shield myself from the claw or my sword up to parry the attack (and without forgetting a short rest mechanic!). Firebreath coming my way? Using evasion I pull my shield to block or use my sword to swipe a path through the flame. Isn't that a trope or something? Fire breathing dragon doesn't hurt the knight because the shield blocks the fire?

1. It isn't a niche build if it is one feat. I used a Human Fighter to start the premise in your favor.
2. At that point you are forcing items and different ability scores into strict class abilities of the same kind. Mechanics cease to be defining anything because they are using the same feature and there is no point in having items or abilities unless they have an action on their own. In which you have 4e issues without the various material and rules to at least give some more identity.

[Steampunkette]

Personally, I love fighters with Uncanny Dodge or some similar reaction to avoid damage ability. It makes for a more interesting defensive ability than "Gain +1AC if you're wearing armor."

Though I definitely feel like Action Surge is a good ability, for this class it might be nice to bump it up to level 6 to minimize dipping? Put it behind the fighter class option wall and go to town.

As for evasion and uncanny dodge on a Knight, call it Blocking and have them duck behind their shields against fireballs or make the active decision to spend anreaction, and thus more effort, blocking an attack.

[HamsterKun]

How about a little something like this:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...y9Nu0yN-dFxczw