What exactly does dragonwrought do?

[Temennigru]

Please read the thread and associated posts.

The post only reinforced what I think. If you want to stink your game with cheese, fine (but I hope the DM makes a meteor fall on your head). But don't try and cheat misinterpretations into everyone else's game.

The quote that everyone uses to try and cheat is this one:

a true dragon (that is, a dragon with twelve age categories, such as a red dragon).

But if you look on a broader scope:

CREATING A DRAGONPACT
To make a dragonpact, a sorcerer of 4th level or higher (that is, a character with at least four levels of sorcerer) must undertake a mystical ceremony in which he establishes mental contact with a true dragon (that is, a dragon with twelve age categories, such as a red dragon). A true dragon can’t initiate this ceremony (though it can try to convince a sorcerer to do so), nor can it attempt to establish a dragonpact with another dragon.

You'll see that that text was in no way trying to define a true dragon. It was simply a reminder text. You will never convince me that reminder text can override previous definitions.

[danzibr]

Hoo boy.

This is the most convincing post I've seen.

That has nothing to do with what I'm talking about @_@

I'm talking specifically about the epic feats thing, which doesn't have anything to do with whether dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons, it's caused by them having the dragon type.

Oooooh. Yeah, that's right. Draconomicon, page 66. Dragon.

[atemu1234]

Dragonwrought kobold are not true dragons. The monster manual specifically says that dragon typed creatures are not true dragons.

Which was changed later by one of the Dragon books to include all dragons that advance by age categories.

Now, I don't personally agree with the interpretation that Dragonwroughts are true dragons, but the Monster Manual has been overruled by the most recent source.

[torrasque666]

Which was changed later by one of the Dragon books to include all dragons that advance by age categories.

Now, I don't personally agree with the interpretation that Dragonwroughts are true dragons, but the Monster Manual has been overruled by the most recent source.

As has been stated in the other Dragonwrought thread, Dragon Magic is not the primary source on Dragons, the Draconomicon is. Thus, Draconomicon takes precedence.

[atemu1234]

As has been stated in the other Dragonwrought thread, Dragon Magic is not the primary source on Dragons, the Draconomicon is. Thus, Draconomicon takes precedence.

That is "One of the Dragon books" in my head. I made no reference to Dragon Magic.

[torrasque666]

That is "One of the Dragon books" in my head. I made no reference to Dragon Magic.

Ah crap. I misread you. I thought you were referring to the Dragon Magic sentence that is used to try and define Dragonwrought Kobolds as True Dragons simply because they have the Twelve.

[atemu1234]

Ah crap. I misread you. I thought you were referring to the Dragon Magic sentence that is used to try and define Dragonwrought Kobolds as True Dragons simply because they have the Twelve.

Nah. However, I do use the twelve age categories thing for actual dragons not listed, like some of the ones printed in obscure sources.

[Eloel]

The issue with most narrow definitions of true dragon is that they do not allow for the new (and some old) dragons. A Force Dragon is missing most of the things that the dragonwrought kobold can be argued to be missing, though I haven't seen anyone claim it's not a true dragon. Thus, we have to ignore the rules that are not up to date or all-encompassing.

Also relevant is that Draconomicon claims all non-true dragons are lesser dragons, and lists every single one of them that it knows of. Dragonwrought Kobold is a dragon. It's not listed as true OR lesser. That doesn't default to lesser any more than it defaults to true.

[danzibr]

The issue with most narrow definitions of true dragon is that they do not allow for the new (and some old) dragons. A Force Dragon is missing most of the things that the dragonwrought kobold can be argued to be missing, though I haven't seen anyone claim it's not a true dragon. Thus, we have to ignore the rules that are not up to date or all-encompassing.

Also relevant is that Draconomicon claims all non-true dragons are lesser dragons, and lists every single one of them that it knows of. Dragonwrought Kobold is a dragon. It's not listed as true OR lesser. That doesn't default to lesser any more than it defaults to true.

Didn't RotD come out after Draconomicon though?

[Eloel]

Didn't RotD come out after Draconomicon though?

By about 3 years, yes.

[Temennigru]

Which was changed later by one of the Dragon books to include all dragons that advance by age categories.

Now, I don't personally agree with the interpretation that Dragonwroughts are true dragons, but the Monster Manual has been overruled by the most recent source.

It was not changed. People took a reminder text from "how to make a dragonmark" out of context and started treating it as absolute truth.

[GreyBlack]

How to determine if Dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons, by step:

Step 1. Check with your DM.
Step 2. Accept the DMs ruling and get on with your life. In my games, I would actually rule them to be true dragons, but that's just me.

[atemu1234]

How to determine if Dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons, by step:

Step 1. Check with your DM.
Step 2. Accept the DMs ruling and get on with your life. In my games, I would actually rule them to be true dragons, but that's just me.

Really? I wouldn't, because if they have the level of system mastery to go, "Alright, if I do this I can have access to epic feats at level 1." They have the system mastery to design something almost as powerful but without cheesing. Just my take.

[danzibr]

Really? I wouldn't, because if they have the level of system mastery to go, "Alright, if I do this I can have access to epic feats at level 1." They have the system mastery to design something almost as powerful but without cheesing. Just my take.

As pointed out earlier, the epic feat thing only requires Dragon type, so fer sher DWK's qualify.

It's the other cheese, the sovereign archetypes, that they need True Dragon for.

[atemu1234]

As pointed out earlier, the epic feat thing only requires Dragon type, so fer sher DWK's qualify.

It's the other cheese, the sovereign archetypes, that they need True Dragon for.

Also something I'd fiat on.

I'm not saying that as DM, I'd allow it. However, I do kind-of, sorta defend it as at least theoretically RAW.