OOTS #979 - The Discussion Thread

[ti'esar]

None of the Gnomeland Security gnomes actually died, though.

[shadowpriest]

So... perfect.

[Neoriceisgood]

Well that's an extremely useful bluff/diplomacy attempt right there.

Go team Haley/Crystal?

[Corneel]

Storywise a very nice installment, but artwise, especially on a second read through, I feel that the level of copypasta (esp. running Crystals & Haleys) is a bit jarring. It's most blatant when you compare the Haleys in panel 9 of page 1 and in panel 3 of page 2.

[Sith_Happens]

Wherein Bozzok and Grubwiggler discover the downside to intelligent constructs: Susceptibility to social skills.

[Bulldog Psion]

<other spouse>'s ship has sailed. V is a 100% free and free-willed elf. As an added bonus Sabine can be whatever V wants her to be in the bedroom, so V's gender and orientation can remain a mystery.

Vabine shippers unite!

Much as "Vabine" makes me chuckle, I don't think that "being whatever V wants her to be in the bedroom" is actually much of a selling point for the elf, who seems to have zero interest in sex.

The only thing V wants a partner to be in the bedroom is "quiet, so I can finish reading this ancient tome on spells before I trance."

[Liliet]

I liked this comic a lot, as much as I liked running through the gnomes shop.

There are a few things I would like to point out that I saw. First off Crystal golem is hastened. She is going as fast as Haley, keeping up with her at max speed. I have seen it suggested that Haley was slowing to let Crystal keep up but she wasn't because Crystal was doing that on her own. Haley took her to waters edge to keep get her as far from others as possible and only stopped because she knew her boots were done. In line 3 of panel 2 you can vaguely see the magic of the boots dissipating. She had to succeed or die there because without the boots she could not have outrun Crystal again.

Crystal, when running, shouted separate words. It's consistent with her talking style when she isn't running, but it's also consistent with, well, how talking when running works.
Haley spoke in complete sentences without losing breath. It's consistent with Rich's habit of ignoring certain points of realism, but it's also consistent with her deliberately going slower to 1) not lose Crystal (so she doesn't get ideas like taking gnomes hostage again); 2) be able to talk to her. And I'm choosing that because 1) realism; 2) more awesome.
It also makes sense to be on narrative level that Haley would be able to outrun Crystal on flat ground, making her faster when they are both equally hastened, too. I imagine her daily life entails a lot more running than Crystal's, her being an urban assassin.

Of all the awesome that Haley demonstrates in this strip, it all starts with a small bit of awesome at the beginning, when she brought out the knife to distract Crystal and lure her into breaking the grapple. If she hadn't done that, she'd never have had to chance to do any of the other stuff, and I think she'd be in the lineup at Arcadia right around now....

And that too counts as a use of Charisma in battle - understanding the importance of that object to Crystal and how to use it to alter Crystal's behavior. And so a weapon that one would have thought was useless in this fight, because it did not have enough bonuses to overcome the enemy's damage resistance, is made critically useful after all, thanks to high CHA.

(And perhaps we also get a hint about how Haley and Elan got attracted to one another in the first place. Elan's CHA was explicitly shown to be through the roof early on, but there was no direct mention of Haley's, but subsequent events have shown that she too must have a high score in that stat, making it something they would have shared in common from the get-go).

Yeah. I wrote a bit upthread about how I thought Haley used the knife to figure out how much of her former self Crystal retains and how much of free will / capacity for deviation from primary objective she has. It turned out to be enough to let her go in favor of the knife, showing Haley that there was a point in talking to her.

"What have we learned from this comic, boys and girls?"

"Diplomancers are dangerous."

"Correct, class. Now, turn to page 23 of your Rogue's Guide..."

Yes. Hell yes. Hell freaking yes.

<other spouse>'s ship has sailed. V is a 100% free and free-willed elf. As an added bonus Sabine can be whatever V wants her to be in the bedroom, so V's gender and orientation can remain a mystery.

Vabine shippers unite!

I still headcanon that that divorce paper was bait by V's spouse to get V to come back. A bait which would have worked if not for V's character development, making it a sad case of dramatic irony.

Also, not every meaningful relationship has to be exclusive/romantic in nature

Food For Thought:

When Crystal was electrified, she became physically faster, and obviously her reaction time sped up too (otherwise she'd be tripping over her own feet) hence her mental state was sped up too.
... In other words... it's quite likely the electrification made her smarter as well as faster. Or at least sped up her brain synapses. (same dif?)

So... we all might have thought that the gnomes screwed Haley by firing that lightning, which might necesitate revenge via pranking them or something, but instead, it turns out that the gnomes were the only reason Crystal Golem was intelligent enough for Haley's complicated (for a golem) explanation to actually make sense to her! Thus, the families of the brave gnomes who died in the line of duty will likely find bags of gold under their beds left by a sneaky anonymous donor. ;)

We already knew that Crystal isn't a regular golem - regular ones don't possess memories or self-awareness of their meat components - but this is a nice idea too!

Perhaps that Bastard Sword is a family heirloom, wielded once, long ago, by Bozzok's grandfather, whom he admired and worshipped as a little tyke....

Of whatever the equivalent of that kind of motivation might work for an evil character of Bozzok's type.

I think this motivation should work just fine?

[veti]

. Although I do find it immensely sad that she thinks she needs killing.

Consider what "needs killing" means. Need is an active thing, there has to be somebody doing the needing.

In this case, it's obviously Bozzok (and Crystal, as his henchperson and Haley's nemesis). The statement parses as "We need to kill you". That's what Haley is agreeing to, and that's all; no need to read some huge subtext of angsty self-loathing into it, I'm pretty sure she grew out of that years ago.

[Sikon]

"Diplomancers are dangerous."

I smell a new Erfworld magic discipline.

[Liliet]

Wherein Bozzok and Grubwiggler discover the downside to intelligent constructs: Susceptibility to social skills.

Yes ^^

Well that's an extremely useful bluff/diplomacy attempt right there.

Go team Haley/Crystal?

YES.

Also, no bluff there. No lies detected!

Consider what "needs killing" means. Need is an active thing, there has to be somebody doing the needing.

In this case, it's obviously Bozzok (and Crystal, as his henchperson and Haley's nemesis). The statement parses as "We need to kill you". That's what Haley is agreeing to, and that's all; no need to read some huge subtext of angsty self-loathing into it, I'm pretty sure she grew out of that years ago.

Also, I think that was mostly humor.

[Bulldog Psion]

Consider what "needs killing" means. Need is an active thing, there has to be somebody doing the needing.

In this case, it's obviously Bozzok (and Crystal, as his henchperson and Haley's nemesis). The statement parses as "We need to kill you". That's what Haley is agreeing to, and that's all; no need to read some huge subtext of angsty self-loathing into it, I'm pretty sure she grew out of that years ago.

Yes, you're right, I believe. Plus, it's probably also, "yeah, yeah, I know you think that. Whatever. But ..."

[Shining Wrath]

That's not a bluff check. That's not really Diplomacy.

That's logic. And it's ironclad, airtight, and cogent enough that even Crystal can understand it.

Oh Bozzok, now you see the disadvantages of intelligent golems.

Remember all our discussion of whether or not Crystal deserves sympathy? It appears that Haley feels enough empathy for Crystal to put herself in Crystal's place and see things from her perspective. We all agreed (as far as I saw) that Bozzok was the real villain here. I think Crystal has come around to our viewpoint.

This is going to be a lot of fun to watch.

Mr. Giant, sir: well done. Slow clap.

The deaths of Bozzok and Grubwiggler will be quite satisfying.

I dunno. The next plot twist may be the reveal that Grubwiggler feared that Bozzok would send Crystal after him - quite logically, I might add - and put in a back door control word that would let him override Crystal's commanding.

Which may not work if she's gone rogue (pun most definitely intended).

I wasn't expecting this because I honestly didn't think it would work. But this was amazing, and so is Haley. Although I do find it immensely sad that she thinks she needs killing.

The life of a D&D adventurer. Remember the Adult Black Dragon and Vaarsuvius? You go from place to place defeating foes who (arguably) need killing, their friends and family view YOU as someone who needs killing.

Haley is showing her ability to put herself in Crystal's boots, nothing more.

[ahdok]

What do you guys think that Bozzok was doing the moment crystal burst in... It looks to me like his dialogue line would have been "No, Grubby... this is how you wring a baby's neck"

[ahdok]

Are you trying to imply that there is a better approach to combat than repeatedly hitting something in the face with a weapon over and over and over? Nonsense!

Hey... HEY! I found the monster's secret weakness! Turns out it's weak to being killed!

[Shining Wrath]

Hey... HEY! I found the monster's secret weakness! Turns out it's weak to being killed!

For all the "save or suck" spells wizards can wield, "dead" remains the worst condition you can inflict on a foe.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Hey... HEY! I found the monster's secret weakness! Turns out it's weak to being killed!

The Fighter kills the monster. It's super effective!

[Liliet]

That's not a bluff check. That's not really Diplomacy.

That's logic. And it's ironclad, airtight, and cogent enough that even Crystal can understand it.

The diplomacy check is the part where Haley, while being winded and scared, managed to word it coherently enough for Crystal to follow, and not anger her in process. Tone of voice played no small part it that too, I'd think. Talking to people isn't as simple as 'just logic' (which you know for a fact after enough internet debates), much less people who are
1) in intense pain;
2) currently trying to kill you.

Oh Bozzok, now you see the disadvantages of intelligent golems.

Full agreement here, though.

Remember all our discussion of whether or not Crystal deserves sympathy? It appears that Haley feels enough empathy for Crystal to put herself in Crystal's place and see things from her perspective. We all agreed (as far as I saw) that Bozzok was the real villain here. I think Crystal has come around to our viewpoint.

EMPATHY IS ALWAYS A GOOD THING AND ONE DOES NOT HAVE TO 'DESERVE' IT
*exhales*
come ooooon

This is going to be a lot of fun to watch.

Mr. Giant, sir: well done. Slow clap.

Yes. Yes. Yes.

I dunno. The next plot twist may be the reveal that Grubwiggler feared that Bozzok would send Crystal after him - quite logically, I might add - and put in a back door control word that would let him override Crystal's commanding.

Which may not work if she's gone rogue (pun most definitely intended).

Orrrr Haley can override/break it in some way. Like, if she cuts his throat he won't be able to talk, stuff like that. *innocent cute kid*

The life of a D&D adventurer. Remember the Adult Black Dragon and Vaarsuvius? You go from place to place defeating foes who (arguably) need killing, their friends and family view YOU as someone who needs killing.

Haley is showing her ability to put herself in Crystal's boots, nothing more.

Yes.
Also a morbid sense of humor that I fully approve of.

[Lathund]

Holy crap, that was an epic strip Hat tip, sir Burlew.

[Yendor]

She likely has some kind of control phrase or fail safe built in but it'd be so fitting.

I'd expect Grubwiggler to put emergency overrides in all his golems so they can't be used against him. Which could get interesting if Bozzok tries to shift the blame onto Grubby.

[Liliet]

I'd expect Grubwiggler to put emergency overrides in all his golems so they can't be used against him. Which could get interesting if Bozzok tries to shift the blame onto Grubby.

I doubt Bozzok's enough of a diplomancer to pull off convincing the attacking golem to turn to someone else... actually wait, that wouldn't be diplomacy, that would be bluff...
still, this was no trivial feat, and I doubt he can repeat it

[Gusion]

For all the "save or suck" spells wizards can wield, "dead" remains the worst condition you can inflict on a foe.

I think some creatures would prefer death to being the litter box of a cat who had too much to eat on the semi-elemental plane of ranch dressing.

Death can be preferable to domination.

[CleverDragon]

I have this sneaky suspicion that...

Spoiler

Show

Grubwiggler will have a command word or some such protection "built in". Now, whether that shuts Crystalgolem down or just prevents her from attacking her creator is another matter altogether.

Edit: didn't see the above conversation about this very thing. But yeah, it makes sense that something like that would be there.

[Crusher]

It took a lot of build up to get to this point and that was a little frustrating at times as a reader. But now that we're here, the build up was *totally* worth it.

[happycrow]

I cant believe that worked!

I can't believe I've called two things, let alone two things in a freaking row.
But yeah, diplomancy is epic. I've played three "face" characters, and it's amazing how powerful they can be once you're thinking with your words rather than your weapons.

(Then you run into something that's not amenable to words, and....crushification)

[Yendor]

I doubt Bozzok's enough of a diplomancer to pull off convincing the attacking golem to turn to someone else... actually wait, that wouldn't be diplomacy, that would be bluff...
still, this was no trivial feat, and I doubt he can repeat it

Oh, he doesn't need to succeed, he just has to try. Which would give Grubwiggler a reason to turn on him. Either way, Grubby will be Crystal's next target, so I'd be surprised if he hasn't got a contingency plan.

[happycrow]

That's not a bluff check. That's not really Diplomacy.

It's first-rate diplomacy in the classic style: you're using irrefutable facts in order to sell an idea.

[Reddish Mage]

Are you trying to imply that there is a better approach to combat than repeatedly hitting something in the face with a weapon over and over and over? Nonsense!

You are, after all, indisputably right, after looking again at the evidence in the form of Thog and Crystal, and the enormous success they have had, clearly, I should revise my theory.

Yet, I would like to add that the proof of the superiority of the "stab them repeatedly in the face" theory of combat will only be seen in full glory when Belkar will finally proves it to everyone in his most glorious moment of the story. After all, we know that prophecy is a red herring. Belkar cannot die, he'll just stab death in the face!

[Liliet]

I can't believe I've called two things, let alone two things in a freaking row.
But yeah, diplomancy is epic. I've played three "face" characters, and it's amazing how powerful they can be once you're thinking with your words rather than your weapons.

(Then you run into something that's not amenable to words, and....crushification)

(that's why it's supposed to be A PARTY of characters)
(a face is just one role)
(also that's why you play a bard and always have some mind control or utility/bailing spells to help where words just don't cut it) (bards are the best class)

Oh, he doesn't need to succeed, he just has to try. Which would give Grubwiggler a reason to turn on him. Either way, Grubby will be Crystal's next target, so I'd be surprised if he hasn't got a contingency plan.

...hmmm I haven't thought about it like that!
If only because if I were Grubby, I'd bail immediately while Crystal is still busy with Bozzok and hope she doesn't remember about his existence (she probably won't).

It's first-rate diplomacy in the classic style: you're using irrefutable facts in order to sell an idea.

^^^^^ yes
Haley was pushing her interpretation of events
given the situation it's no small feat that she succeeded

[ahdok]

For all the "save or suck" spells wizards can wield, "dead" remains the worst condition you can inflict on a foe.

I dunno... I'm doing some planning for my 4e campaign, and there's a monster I found who inflicts "Stunned, Weakened and turned into a fine mist (save ends)" which feels like it might be a worse condition than "Stunned, Weakened and Dead (save ends)" - the latter lets your friends loot your corpse for useful potions.

[omnitricks]

And this, is how you use diplomacy in combat despite its 1 minute limitation.

Time to get my rogue's boots of speed as well or something which can help me go tongue stabbing in battle.