The Stickiest Fighter

[Elricaltovilla]

So I'm going to be trying to get into a 4e game to finally give the system a really good crack and I've decided I want to play a fighter. My goal is to be as "sticky" as possible, I want to be able to lock down an area like no one else and keep my party safe. To this end I'm thinking I should go with a polearm (Glaive?) but beyond that I'm not sure what else I should be doing. I'm reading through some handbooks to get some ideas, but I'd appreciate some additional help.

The character is level 4, and we can use basically any book, although I don't have access to all of them (I have all the PHBs, MMs and DMGs, Martial Power and a few others I can't remember off the top of my head). I'm looking for help with Feats, Powers, and Equipment... so basically everything.

Also, if someone could ELI5 how leveling works in 4e that would be a big help. I mostly play Pathfinder, and the PHB didn't seem very clear to me on what I get at each (or any particular) level.

[Laserlight]

Also, if someone could ELI5 how leveling works in 4e that would be a big help. I mostly play Pathfinder, and the PHB didn't seem very clear to me on what I get at each (or any particular) level.

Fighter handbook --although that's for all fighters, not just sticky. I'll let someone else discuss the finer points of being sticky.

As for what you get per level:
Level 1: you get 2 At Will powers, 1 Encounter power, 1 Daily power, and a Feat. (Humans get an extra feat and a third At Will, as I recall, but only get +2 to one stat instead of two).
L2: a Utility power (which might be Daily, Encounter, or possibly At Will, depending on what you pick) and a Feat.
L3: Encounter power
L4: A Feat and a +1 bump to two stats.

Most of your rolls will include " + Half Your Level", so your skills, attacks and defenses increase by 1 on every even level.

[Elricaltovilla]

Thank you, that's actually the fighter handbook I'm currently reading lol. I'll probably have a better understanding of this all once I get a chance to look at my PDFs again.

[Sol]

beyond level 4, AEDU (At-will, Encounter, Daily, Utility) class progression is:

• gain a feat every even level, as well as at levels 1, 11, and 21 (start of tiers).
• gain +1 each to two different stats at levels 4, 8, 14, 18, 24, 28
• gain +1 to each stat at levels 10 and 20
• gain an encounter attack power of the appropriate or lower level at levels 1,3,7,13,17,23,27. you may only have a maximum of 3, so (generally) higher-level powers will replace lower ones
• gain a daily attack power of the appropriate level or lower at levels 1, 5, 9, 15, 19, 25, 29. you may only have a maximum of 3, so (generally) higher-level powers will replace lower ones
• gain a utility power at levels 2, 6, 10, 16, and 22. you do not replace utility powers with newer ones as you level, you accumulate more of them.
• paragon paths (generally) add another encounter power at 11, another utility power at 12, and another daily power at 20, which do not count against the limitations above.
• epic destinies may or may not add additional powers which also don't count against those limits.

this sounds a lot more complicated than it really is. the PHB and RC both have sections on character advancement with excellent tables that contain this information.

[Gilphon]

It's worth noting 4e fighters are a good deal stickier than what you're probably used to, even without any kind of optimization.

But- to me, it sounds like you want to play a proning fighter. The basic idea is to take Polearm Momentum, a bunch of things that add forced movement, and then wear Rushing Cleats so all of that forced movement triggers Polearm Momentum. Might be difficult to pull all of that off at level 4, but it'll give you something to work towards.

[obryn]

A Fighter is a good choice for stickiness, so good choice. I'm not sure, however, if a Polearm Fighter is going to be substantially stickier than a classic weapon & shield one. Polearm Gamble is a great feat, but there's something to be said for Heavy Blades, Light Blades, and Hammers, too. You are really at your stickiest when enemies are right next to you, especially at Heroic tier, so keep that in mind.

Make sure you keep the Fighter's default feature of Combat Superiority. That movement-stopping OA is pretty great. Combat Agility isn't nearly as good for control.

To be Ultimately Sticky, the best thing you can do is make sure you qualify for Gladiator Champion at Paragon ... and that's as simple as writing "Fighter" on your sheet. The L16 feature combined with a Fighter's movement-stopping Opportunity Attacks means enemies adjacent to you are never getting away shy of teleporting or your incapaciation.

[Elricaltovilla]

It's worth noting 4e fighters are a good deal stickier than what you're probably used to, even without any kind of optimization.

The Pathfinder materials I use allow me to be quite sticky, but you're the expert on 4e so I defer to you

But- to me, it sounds like you want to play a proning fighter. The basic idea is to take Polearm Momentum, a bunch of things that add forced movement, and then wear Rushing Cleats so all of that forced movement triggers Polearm Momentum. Might be difficult to pull all of that off at level 4, but it'll give you something to work towards.

Sounds like a version of the 3.5 and PF tripper builds. I can work with that. I saw a lot of shifting and sliding stuff recommended. I assume those are the forced movements you're talking about?

[Gilphon]

I don't know if I'd call myself an expert.

But yeah, that stuff is what I meant.

[Kurald Galain]

A Fighter is a good choice for stickiness, so good choice. I'm not sure, however, if a Polearm Fighter is going to be substantially stickier than a classic weapon & shield one. Polearm Gamble is a great feat, but there's something to be said for Heavy Blades, Light Blades, and Hammers, too. You are really at your stickiest when enemies are right next to you, especially at Heroic tier, so keep that in mind.

No, you're at your stickiest when enemies are on the ground one square away from everyone

My suggested dailies for a sticky fighter include Unstoppable Advance (which combines well with polearm momentum); Brazen Assault (does wonders for your survivability) and a very sticky power is Pinning Smash. Furthermore, it's worth considering to put two feats into ranger multiclassing so you can pick up Disruptive Strike. And don't forget the Repel Charge feat (at paragon, swap it for Polearm Gamble). All in all, this makes for a very nice "no you don't" fighter.

[Tegu8788]

In terms over a power difference, I've been told a twinked out Lvl 7 Fighter in PF is about equal to a Lvl 1 Fighter before you choose feats or powers.

Something that might be fun, is combo Staff Expertise and Staff Fighting feats. It's now a 1d8 defensive double weapon with reach. Throw on Hafted Defense for more protection.

Not saying that's the strongest, but it would be interesting, and let you use both 2-handed weapon and 2 weapon fighter attacks.


But yes, proning is a great way to keep everyone stuck.

[Elricaltovilla]

In terms over a power difference, I've been told a twinked out Lvl 7 Fighter in PF is about equal to a Lvl 1 Fighter before you choose feats or powers.

Ah, but I use Path of War. I'm playing a Warder in my PF game, not a fighter.

PF fighter takes a lot of work to get anywhere approaching acceptable. Fingers crossed that Pathfinder Unchained does something to fix that.

Something that might be fun, is combo Staff Expertise and Staff Fighting feats. It's now a 1d8 defensive double weapon with reach. Throw on Hafted Defense for more protection.

Not saying that's the strongest, but it would be interesting, and let you use both 2-handed weapon and 2 weapon fighter attacks.


But yes, proning is a great way to keep everyone stuck.

That's an interesting idea. Where are Staff Expertise and Staff Fighting located?

Any suggestions for ways to get Polearm Momentum to trigger more often? With the powers I have right now I can really only shift people one square. I need to shift them two squares

[Tegu8788]

There are numerous items that can increase your shift range.

Staff expertise is for the Heroes books, Staff fighting is from Drag Mag 368.

[Elricaltovilla]

There are numerous items that can increase your shift range.

Staff expertise is for the Heroes books, Staff fighting is from Drag Mag 368.

Ah, off limits for me then. I don't have any of the heroes books or any dragon magazines.

[Gilphon]

You'll want to get access to Heroes of the Fallen Lands somehow; because without it Weapon Expertise- which you absolutely want; Expertise feats are a question of 'when', not 'if' for all characters- just becomes an annoying 'feat tax'. Though some DMs house-rule away the need for it; talk to yours about it.

But- The need to increase your slide range is the reason I said the build might be hard to make work at level 4. I'm also not sure I can recommend taking Polearm Momentum that early- I feel like you're probably sacrificing something if you can get 15 Dex and Wis that early. It's doable, especially if your racial bonuses are compatible- But, well- Accuracy is the most important thing in 4e, and to that end, your should have at least 19 Strength at level 4. If you can manage that and still get Polearm Momentum, feel free to ignore me, but otherwise, you might want to hold off.

[Elricaltovilla]

You'll want to get access to Heroes of the Fallen Lands somehow; because without it Weapon Expertise- which you absolutely want; Expertise feats are a question of 'when', not 'if' for all characters- just becomes an annoying 'feat tax'. Though some DMs house-rule away the need for it; talk to yours about it.

But- The need to increase your slide range is the reason I said the build might be hard to make work at level 4. I'm also not sure I can recommend taking Polearm Momentum that early- I feel like you're probably sacrificing something if you can get 15 Dex and Wis that early. It's doable, especially if your racial bonuses are compatible- But, well- Accuracy is the most important thing in 4e, and to that end, your should have at least 19 Strength at level 4. If you can manage that and still get Polearm Momentum, feel free to ignore me, but otherwise, you might want to hold off.

Hmm.. well that kind of stinks. I can delay taking Polearm Momentum I guess. Here's the sheet as I've got it so far. Obviously any tips would be appreciated.

Sheet

Right now I have access to PHB 1-3, DM's Guide 1&2, Monster Manual 1&2, FR Player's Guide, Eberron Player's Guide, Martial Power 1&2, Adventurer's Vault, Rules Compendium and I think that's everything relevant.

[Gilphon]

Did you roll for those stats, or it that point buy? 'cause if it's point buy, I'd suggest dumping Int and bringing Cha down to 10, as you're not using the former for anything and only using the latter for intimidate. If you rolled, yeah, you're going to want to wait for Polearm Momentum; you'll seriously need the Strength boost.

(I'm assuming you're getting the racial bonus to Strength, not Constitution. If I'm wrong, fixing your problem is as simple as changing that.)

[Elricaltovilla]

Did you roll for those stats, or it that point buy? 'cause if it's point buy, I'd suggest dumping Int and bringing Cha down to 10, as you're not using the former for anything and only using the latter for intimidate. If you rolled, yeah, you're going to want to wait for Polearm Momentum; you'll seriously need the Strength boost.

(I'm assuming you're getting the racial bonus to Strength, not Constitution. If I'm wrong, fixing your problem is as simple as changing that.)

It's Point Buy. I can move some stats around, I put my +1s in Dex and WIS to get Polearm Master. I don't want to dump INT because I hate playing dumb characters.

[Gilphon]

/shrugs

Dump Cha, then. You're not losing much from a crunch perspective either way; one or two points of intimidate is all you're giving up by losing the Cha. Having 8 and 10 as your lowest stats should give you enough points to make it work. Or maybe fiddle with your Con? The goal, I think, should be 13 base dex, 14 base wis, and 16 base strength- and then the racial boosts and the level 4 boosts (str and wis) gets you where you want to be.

Though, of course, it might be better to just wait.

[Kurald Galain]

You'll want to get access to Heroes of the Fallen Lands somehow; because without it Weapon Expertise

Experitse feats started in the PHB2, actually

And feats that make your build do its shtick (e.g. Polearm Momentum) should always come before feats that make you 5% better at things you can already do (i.e. Expertise). Yes, expertise is a feat you should take, but no, that doesn't mean it has to be taken first. Level 8 or so is early enough.

[Yakk]

You burned 2 feats on increased AC, while choosing a two-handed weapon.

Polearm gamble means you get to OA people who move (without shifting/teleporting) adjacent to you. You get a +wis bonus to hit, and if you hit you stop their movement.

One of your +1 attribute bumps should always go into your strength in 99.9% of builds. If you want to put it elsewhere, start with a 1 point lower strength, boost the other stats at level 1, then bump strength every time -- you'll end up with strictly higher stats.

You want an expertise feat. +1 to hit is gold. The Heroes/Dragon ones comes with a flavorful side bonus, but even the PHB2 ones are gold. (note that errata made the various Expertise feats not stack with each other)

Lasting Threat is meh. You mark foes pretty easily.

Shrewd Repositioning is questionable. It burns your immediate action, and it lets you shift *after* you are hit and take damage. Your sticky is best when adjacent to foes, and your immediate actions are how you punish foes for ignoring you.

You should equip at least non-magical weapons to have a better idea of what your character can do.

[Elricaltovilla]

You burned 2 feats on increased AC, while choosing a two-handed weapon.

Polearm gamble means you get to OA people who move (without shifting/teleporting) adjacent to you. You get a +wis bonus to hit, and if you hit you stop their movement.

One of your +1 attribute bumps should always go into your strength in 99.9% of builds. If you want to put it elsewhere, start with a 1 point lower strength, boost the other stats at level 1, then bump strength every time -- you'll end up with strictly higher stats.

You want an expertise feat. +1 to hit is gold. The Heroes/Dragon ones comes with a flavorful side bonus, but even the PHB2 ones are gold. (note that errata made the various Expertise feats not stack with each other)

Lasting Threat is meh. You mark foes pretty easily.

Shrewd Repositioning is questionable. It burns your immediate action, and it lets you shift *after* you are hit and take damage. Your sticky is best when adjacent to foes, and your immediate actions are how you punish foes for ignoring you.

You should equip at least non-magical weapons to have a better idea of what your character can do.

I'm at work and don't have access to my books right now. When I get home I can finish the character. If I need to dump an AC boosting feat for something else I can. I haven't even picked out my equipment yet.

[Kurald Galain]

I'm at work and don't have access to my books right now. When I get home I can finish the character. If I need to dump an AC boosting feat for something else I can. I haven't even picked out my equipment yet.

Generally speaking, don't spend feats on AC; simply because there are better feats.

Also, try to get encounter powers that attack multiple creatures, because you'll automatically mark all of them. And try to get daily powers that last the entire encounter in one way or another (like, yes, Lasting Threat, but LT in particular isn't all that great).

[georgie_leech]

Generally speaking, don't spend feats on AC; simply because there are better feats.

To expand a bit, the design of 4e tends to reward being able to better do things to your opponent than being able to better prevent the same. Most of your effectiveness comes from actually hitting things, rather than just existing. While it's generally difficult to impact the battlefield while dead, even without such AC boosting feats, you should last long enough that it's better to spend them on offense.

The exception to this are feats that help prevent nasty conditions from affecting you. Superior Will, for instance, is frequently recommended because it helps you shrug off things like Dominate or Stuns and similar.

[Kimera757]

If you can get access to the first Essentials book, take Threatening Glower as an encounter utility (level 2). It is amazing. All enemies in a close burst 2 take a -5 penalty to hit anyone other than you, with no attack roll, and that stacks with any mark penalties or defender aura penalties. I bet that's in the link you were given though.

I use it on NPCs (as in, the monsters used it on the PCs) and my players utterly hate it. But in a good way.

A note about humans: you can trade the extra at-will for Heroic Effort. That lets you add +4 to a failed saving throw or attack roll. The latter comes up a lot... especially if you're not using a sword.

Dwarves are also crazy good due to the minor action Second Wind. There's quite a few items that give you bonuses when using that as well, really good for emergency heals.