Dragonball/Z characters you wish were ultra-powerful but aren't

[Mato]

So you want girls to power up no matter how illogical it would be just because they are girls eh?
You know, that's how a log of Internet fights begin.

How about we just settle for Pan & Bra fusing and going Ssj4G in the third film?

[Emperor Ing]

I'm willing to accept that Pan can't go SSJ because she's only quarter Saiyan. Bra has the capability I think, with all other half-saiyans in the show going SSJ, but lacking anything that would establish her ability to even use her ki, to the best of my knowledge, I can't imagine she'd be able to.

[Mato]

DBGT has Pan's (grand?) children capable of going SSJ, and since I know this thread hates GT let's not forget Pan counted as a Saiyen for the purposes of Super Saiyen God.

There is more evidence that she could achieve the state than cannot. But as said before, the author doesn't know how to drawn them (that and backgrounds).

[Rater202]

I'm willing to accept that Pan can't go SSJ because she's only quarter Saiyan.

Dragonball Online, while a failed MMO, was under Toriyama's creative control and it's storyline considered canonical.

The "Human" PCs were actually temporarily stranded from a time hundreds of generations in the future where the entire human race had some blood connection to either Goku or Vegeta.

You had to use the Dragon Balls to pull it off, but they were able to become super saiyans.

Remember: This was to be, at the time, considered Canon and got Toriyama-sensei's seal of approval.

[Emperor Ing]

It's possible (can't confirm!) that the rules for going Super Saiyan are different than the rules for powering up someone else to Super Saiyan God. Certainly being able to transform into a Super Saiyan at all does not seem to be a prerequisite.

Similarly, the dragonballs have a tendency to allow the rules to be broken.

[Rater202]

Similarly, the dragonballs have a tendency to allow the rules to be broken.

Not really-The Dragonballs are only capable of doing thins within the power of their creator: And with the possible exception of Restoring youth, everything we see the dragonballs do is something that somebody else was seen doing or something that logically could have been done.

Things we saw done without the Dragonballs that others did or are capable of:Raise the Dead, Conjure Clothing, restore energy, transport a large number of people a very far distance instantly, remove the self destruct feature from one of Dr. Gero's Jinzoningen.

While, discounting the Dead Zone Movie and by extension the Garlic Junior Filler, both of which aren't canon, we never see anyone actually become immortal, depending on how you define it even that's possible without the dragonballs-Master Roshi and Fortune Teller Baba don't age any more and have indefinite life spans thanks to drinking from the fountain of youth, and when Goku brought Turtle bak to Roshi and Roshi rewarded him with the Nimbus, he originally was going to summon his magic phoenix to make Goku Immortal-but the phoenix died from eating tainted bird seed.(The english dub of the anime changed it to a flying carpet instead of a pheonix)

[Emperor Ing]

Not really-The Dragonballs are only capable of doing thins within the power of their creator: And with the possible exception of Restoring youth, everything we see the dragonballs do is something that somebody else was seen doing or something that logically could have been done.

Things we saw done without the Dragonballs that others did or are capable of:Raise the Dead, Conjure Clothing, restore energy, transport a large number of people a very far distance instantly, remove the self destruct feature from one of Dr. Gero's Jinzoningen.

Point is though I think that enabling a Saiyan-blooded Ki user to be able to go Super-Saiyan who otherwise wouldn't be able to is within the scope of the Dragon's power.

[Rater202]

Point is though I think that enabling a Saiyan-blooded Ki user to be able to go Super-Saiyan who otherwise wouldn't be able to is within the scope of the Dragon's power.

CounterPoint: Almost everything we see the Dragonballs do is something that can be done, somehow, without them. Thus, it's probably possible for the saiyan descended humans to ascend without it.

[Jayngfet]

CounterPoint: Almost everything we see the Dragonballs do is something that can be done, somehow, without them. Thus, it must be possible for the saiyan descended humans to ascend without it.

If Kami could just do things directly without consequence he wouldn't need the balls. Bringing back the dead otherwise kills the caster. Immortality requires a specific elixir who's recipe is presumably lost since any and all immortals via that method are centuries old and nobody attains it, or else using a bird that itself has died. The dragons can create matter, but they can't create the vast quantities or density the Supreme Kai presumably can, since the weight of the Katchin alone puts it's equivalent water volume at the size of a large lake if not small ocean given Goku's feats and his struggle. Correlation does not imply equality, just implying that certain things are somehow possible.

This is, of course, a moot point. Obviously Pan going Super Saiyan is entirely up to a writers whims and the necessity of the plot. Nothing Toriyama himself actually wrote necessitates her doing so and assuming it just happens as a matter of course, even if she were a half or full Saiyan, is being rather presumptuous.

[Emperor Ing]

CounterPoint: Almost everything we see the Dragonballs do is something that can be done, somehow, without them. Thus, it's probably possible for the saiyan descended humans to ascend without it.

Rebuilding an obliterated planet, resurrecting the entirety of a planet's population then teleporting all of them across multiple light-years instantaneously...yeah. It can be done, but so far nothing of the kind of scale we've seen with the Dragonballs, so there's no reason that someone else being able to do it is a prerequisite for the Dragon being able to do it.

[Rater202]

If Kami could just do things directly without consequence he wouldn't need the balls. Bringing back the dead otherwise kills the caster. Immortality requires a specific elixir who's recipe is presumably lost since any and all immortals via that method are centuries old and nobody attains it, or else using a bird that itself has died. The dragons can create matter, but they can't create the vast quantities or density the Supreme Kai presumably can, since the weight of the Katchin alone puts it's equivalent water volume at the size of a large lake if not small ocean given Goku's feats and his struggle. Correlation does not imply equality, just implying that certain things are somehow possible.

I didn't say it was easy, only that it was possible.

Onto the Bolded-Parunga created an entire new planet for the Namekians to inhabit after Namek was destroyed.

[Jayngfet]

I didn't say it was easy, only that it was possible.

Onto the Bolded-Parunga created an entire new planet for the Namekians to inhabit after Namek was destroyed.

...and yet he couldn't just give them more water a few hundred years ago.

Though to be fair that technically wasn't the same Porunga. He was remade by another elder in the same way Shenron was by Dende. Being able to conjure up large quantities of matter probably made it into the design specs pretty early to nip future problems in the bud.

As for possible, lets keep in mind what other kinds of throwbacks there are. Tien is technically part alien himself, along with a bunch of other people. But he's the only one we ever see as a Triclops in the whole series. So following the same logic, there'd be as many Super Saiyans in the future as their are Triclops in the present. Meaning one at best. It's not perfect but it's a model we have to follow given no alternatives.

Though I think a good indicator is if Pan was ever born with a Tail. Since if she wasn't I'd imagine she's not considered a Saiyan primarily so much as a human.

[Rater202]

...and yet he couldn't just give them more water a few hundred years ago.

Though to be fair that technically wasn't the same Porunga. He was remade by another elder in the same way Shenron was by Dende. Being able to conjure up large quantities of matter probably made it into the design specs pretty early to nip future problems in the bud.

Was Parunga even around back then?

I'm pretty sure Guru created him.

Tien is technically part alien himself

citation needed.

[Suichimo]

...and yet he couldn't just give them more water a few hundred years ago.

Though to be fair that technically wasn't the same Porunga. He was remade by another elder in the same way Shenron was by Dende. Being able to conjure up large quantities of matter probably made it into the design specs pretty early to nip future problems in the bud.

As for possible, lets keep in mind what other kinds of throwbacks there are. Tien is technically part alien himself, along with a bunch of other people. But he's the only one we ever see as a Triclops in the whole series. So following the same logic, there'd be as many Super Saiyans in the future as their are Triclops in the present. Meaning one at best. It's not perfect but it's a model we have to follow given no alternatives.

Though I think a good indicator is if Pan was ever born with a Tail. Since if she wasn't I'd imagine she's not considered a Saiyan primarily so much as a human.

Do we know if Goten or Trunks were born with tails? I don't remember ever seeing them with one.

[Rater202]

Pan was saiyan enough that Videl Pregnant with Pan counted as a saiyan for the purposes of giving power to Goku so that he could become The Super Saiyan God.

[Anteros]

Because if she's a genius she might notice she's got a propensity for getting in over her head. Way, Way, WAY, over her head. Also i like the notion of putting her on more even footing with the rather large male cast.

Similar with Videl. That and having 4-6 female characters who are at relevant power tiers would be nice since the shows characters that matter tends to scew it somewhat toward sausage fest turf. Which is a common problem in Shonen anime but that's not a reason not to want to see it rectified.

So you just want to give random characters power ups for no reason other than their gender? I'm perfectly fine with having strong female characters, but your reasoning in this particular instance seems poor.

[Devonix]

So you just want to give random characters power ups for no reason other than their gender? I'm perfectly fine with having strong female characters, but your reasoning in this particular instance seems poor.

No it seems like they want to give females to be viable in combat.

I understand DBZ is a Shonen anime and the focus is always going to be the dudes. It's why Tuxedo Mask never got a super mode in Sailor Moon.

But DBZ the only reason that no women are capable of fighting is that Toriyama hasn't made one yet, there is no story reason stopping him from doing so.

[Reddish Mage]

No it seems like they want to give females to be viable in combat.

I understand DBZ is a Shonen anime and the focus is always going to be the dudes. It's why Tuxedo Mask never got a super mode in Sailor Moon.

But DBZ the only reason that no women are capable of fighting is that Toriyama hasn't made one yet, there is no story reason stopping him from doing so.

Or how about that trend where females, no matter their personality or inclinations, inevitably become sidelined protective mommies that have very little story role...

[Jayngfet]

Was Parunga even around back then?

I'm pretty sure Guru created him.

No, it's explicitly mentioned that the dragon couldn't, meaning the dragon was around. Old Kai also mentions the Namekian balls and he's been trapped for seventy five million years, so it stands to reason that there've been Dragon Balls for at least seventy five million years.

citation needed.

Daizenshuu 4. Everything in there is considered canon.

No it seems like they want to give females to be viable in combat.

I understand DBZ is a Shonen anime and the focus is always going to be the dudes. It's why Tuxedo Mask never got a super mode in Sailor Moon.

But DBZ the only reason that no women are capable of fighting is that Toriyama hasn't made one yet, there is no story reason stopping him from doing so.

Android 18 says hi.

[Devonix]

No, it's explicitly mentioned that the dragon couldn't, meaning the dragon was around. Old Kai also mentions the Namekian balls and he's been trapped for seventy five million years, so it stands to reason that there've been Dragon Balls for at least seventy five million years.



Daizenshuu 4. Everything in there is considered canon.



Android 18 says hi.

Or she did until she became a mother which was the problem.

[Jayngfet]

Or she did until she became a mother which was the problem.

...she fought in the tournament all the way to the finals.

[Devonix]

...she fought in the tournament all the way to the finals.

Come now, does that really count? Even Master Roshi could do that in her place.

[Rater202]

Come now, does that really count? Even Master Roshi could do that in her place.

Not with the turnout the tournament had, and it's still a case of her being a fighter after becoming a Mom. Which is what was asked for.

[Jayngfet]

Come now, does that really count? Even Master Roshi could do that in her place.

...Roshi is a centuries old immortal who's been training for several hundred years to master techniques too arcane for the average human to comprehend, and has in his arsenal attacks that make the ones he taught his students look like child's play.

Even then, his base form is still weaker than Hercule going by numbers Toriyama gave. Not by a significant amount but it'd be a way closer fight than people realize and Roshi stands a heavy chance of losing.

[Emperor Ing]

Wasn't 18 also able to fight Super Saiyan Goten and Trunks to a standstill in the tournament until the two were eliminated by disqualification? I don't know if that was filler or not, but I think that speaks highly of her abilities post-motherhood.

[Metahuman1]

...she fought in the tournament all the way to the finals.

The tournament stopped being in any way relevant to that plot line the second Gohan got shanked and the mooks ran off afterwords. Also, she threw that final match and took a dive in exchange for a pay out. Which while amusing does still technically count it as a loss for her. And then she proceeded to do NOTHING of relevance for the entire rest of the arc while the world was coming as close as if not closer then it had come to being destroyed when Cell was active.

And Reddish has the right of it. Also, let's look at some other more Modern Shonen Anime:

One Piece: Yeah, the focus and power scale still fairly overwhelmingly favors the dudes, but unlike the majority of Shonen, things OTHER then combat prowess and raw combat power matter. And by Virtue of that, characters like Vivi, Nami, Robin or Boa Handcock are significant. (I've yet to see Boa actually in action in series but the club she's in includes Moria, Crocodile, Mihawk, Akuma (or what ever the name of PawPaw fruit guy was.) Blackbeard, she should be a force to be reconned with but will see.) And hey, sometimes they even have competent female villains. Califa was quite capable of curb stomping several Crew members in a straight fight (Chopper, Robin, Nami, Ussopp and MAYBE Franky, and even though they had not met him yet, I'd wager Brook. Actually, everyone other then the 3 super heavy hitters.), and Perona came dangerously close to TPKing the whole crew and if one person had just had a slightly different personality would have obliterated all of them single handedly.

Naruto: As crappy as it is, Tsunade, The Mizukage, and Kushihina (Yes I'm butchering name spellings here just work with me.) all put in entirely valid and respectable performances at various points.

Attack on Titan: Mikasa Ackerman. Do I have to actually say anything more? (I also seem to recall that the only none titan shifter on record to ever kill a titan with out Either the Spider-man-rippoff-gear or a well placed canon shot was a female character, and that there have been at least 2 Female titan shifters who have been highly competent and very dangerous, more so then most other people in the setting.) And keep in mind this is a series I regard I utterly DESPISE!!!!

Fairy Tail: You know, for all we laugh at characters like Lucy, not only does Fairy Tail do an excellent job of balancing a male/female ratico, we've seen numerous very very capable female characters. Erza and Mira-jane are straight up combat monsters who are living legends and for good reason. Mavis freaking chumped death itself in a setting that DOESN'T have a set or resurrection buttons. Cana and Wendy and for all we mock he Lucy have been known to pull some seriously nice moves and saves out form time to time.

DBZ: We have 18. For about 1 to 1-1/2 legs of one Saga. Bulma's kinda helpful for plot exposition. Pan's implied to potential in the future when she's older (Even though at her age Goten and Trunks could blow up planets if they REALLY wanted to and didn't have the right (read there dad) parent or Gohan or MAYBE Piccalo or 18 handy to stop them. Also noting that there gonna likely grow out of the point were Piccalo or 18 are ABLE to in less then 5 years.). And in that light, I should hope the problem becomes more clear.

[Jayngfet]

The tournament stopped being in any way relevant to that plot line the second Gohan got shanked and the mooks ran off afterwords. Also, she threw that final match and took a dive in exchange for a pay out. Which while amusing does still technically count it as a loss for her. And then she proceeded to do NOTHING of relevance for the entire rest of the arc while the world was coming as close as if not closer then it had come to being destroyed when Cell was active.

She still fought. It doesn't matter if it counted as a loss.

Because in case you've forgotten, everyone who isn't Goku loses more or less one hundred percent of the time. This is Dragonball. That's how it works.

[Rater202]

And then she proceeded to do NOTHING of relevance for the entire rest of the arc

*18 is overpowered by Semi-Perfect Cell*

*Majin Buu is significantly more powerful than Cell ever was*

*By her nature 18 is unable to grow more powerful*

*Not even Goku was able to defeat Buu when Buu was in his weakest-unless you count throwing the combined power of literally everyone in the cast plus a planet's worth of extras at him*

*Somehow, not going out and fighting someone significantly more powerful than her magical detracts from the fact that she's totally still a fighter even after becoming a mother, and thus breaks the whole "lol, no fightan moms en dragen ball" argument into tiny pieces*

Not seeing the logic.

[Metahuman1]

She fought, a pointless fight, that was played for comedy of her taking a dive and how pathetic normal humans are to super special martial artists and aliens. A fight that in no way actually mattered except for some joke fodder. It wasn't even setting up that the villain is dangerous enough that there gonna need at least Super Sayian 2 to handle him at minimum. It was "She should win this outright but it would be funny if she didn't.".

And that would be acceptable if they'd give us SOMETHING to go on from characters that aren't dudes that was significant. They don't. *Headdesk.*. And what kills me is I just listed off the top of my head 4 other series that do manage this, 2 of which are widely regarded as vastly inferior to DBZ and one of which isn't but I HATE it and it should be regarded as vastly inferior on the whole! And 2 of which have similar Power-level scaling problems, 1 of which has made it clear that yeah, normal humans might get a cool win in once in a great while but there still beholden to the few special super-powered snowflake chosen one's to save the day. Actually, now that I think about it, you just jumped back to trying to use the tournament defense again and didn't address that point.



Also, just one last thing. This is a thread titled "DBZ characters you wish were ultra-powerful but aren't.". I wish some of the lady's in the show were actually ultra powerful (which translates in that show directly to capable.).



Swordsaged:

Except that there's one small problem with your break down. You over looked that the lack of ability to get more powerful and the fact that before her Saga was even over Super Sayian and Super Namekian were both things that didn't cut it anymore. She was irrelevant before her introductory Saga was over. Contrast other villains who have turned, like Vageta and Piccalo, who actually managed to stay at least somewhat relevant for several saga's afterwords.

But not her. Not the one character who's not a dude. Funny how she's the exception on that front.

[Devonix]

*18 is overpowered by Semi-Perfect Cell*

*Majin Buu is significantly more powerful than Cell ever was*

*By her nature 18 is unable to grow more powerful*

*Not even Goku was able to defeat Buu when Buu was in his weakest-unless you count throwing the combined power of literally everyone in the cast plus a planet's worth of extras at him*

*Somehow, not going out and fighting someone significantly more powerful than her magical detracts from the fact that she's totally still a fighter even after becoming a mother, and thus breaks the whole "lol, no fightan moms en dragen ball" argument into tiny pieces*

Not seeing the logic.

There is nothing stopping any character from the series getting more powerful. If Toriyama wanted them to then they could. DBZ exists as a universe in which simply training has no real upper limit that's the point of the series.