[Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread IV)

[ErrantX]

Pathfinder Unchained has some interesting tidbits (Like what you just mentioned). The stamina feat/system is pretty interesting as well -- I wonder if there's design space for utilizing stamina and maneuvers.


Speaking of future products, I want to throw the idea of a book that just expands current options. Existing disciplines get extra maneuvers (Golden Lion could get a second first level stance, for example), psionics (Since DSP also does that) gets new manifesting abilities, aegis gets new customizations, Soul knife gets new blade skills. Heck, since y'all got Akashic stuff coming out soon, new veils too. Could name it 'Forgotten Techniques of the Third Dawn' or something.

Yeah, we're going to lay off of Unchained for now. I haven't even gotten hands on a PDF of it yet, and no one above myself has mentioned a care about looking into it yet. That said, there definitely could be a design link for stamina and maneuvers, but I would need the book first.

The forecast is basically calling for Expanded to be at least a moderate success for the company, if that works, then we'll talk Kickstarter for an Ultimate, as well proposed Path of War: Augmented books that focus on singular classes within the Path of War line, and maybe a Path of War: Unlimited that basically goes into "everyone else" land like what you were suggesting. But let's worry about Expanded first :)

-X

[Milo v3]

We're not touching Unchained material with this book. It's too new, and we haven't had time to work with it and see what kind of issues might arise, or what level of support Unchained is actually going to receive from Paizo.

After having read it, there is probably only three aspects that you guys might "possibly" ever touch in the future Variant Multiclassing options for your DSP classes, stamina options for your DSP combat feats, and skill unlocks for Autohypnosis. Aside from that, I don't think there's anything to support from a 3rd party perspective, since I don't think DSP would want to do any "unchained" classes.

[tekevil]

Something I'm curious on is if a 1-4 initiation archetype could be a thing.

[Elricaltovilla]

Something I'm curious on is if a 1-4 initiation archetype could be a thing.

An archetype that only has maneuvers from 1st-4th level? No. I will fight tooth and nail to make sure that never happens.

[ErrantX]

Something I'm curious on is if a 1-4 initiation archetype could be a thing.

An archetype that only has maneuvers from 1st-4th level? No. I will fight tooth and nail to make sure that never happens.

So zealous, I think he's spent too much time with Gareth :P

But yeah, I don't think it's going to be a thing. At that point, sink a couple feats into Martial Training, ya know?

-X

[Milo v3]

Lord Gareth and Elricaltovilla seem to have skirmishes against nails and teeth very frequently.

[ErrantX]

Lord Gareth and Elricaltovilla seem to have skirmishes against nails and teeth very frequently.

They take the war between dentists and manicurists very seriously.

-X

[Elricaltovilla]

I try to keep my list of things that I get upset about very short, but since you and Gareth keep rotating on who gets sick, I fee like I have to step up and take the sick person's place.

4th level initiating is just really sub-par. Even if you balanced it out by giving a lot more maneuvers known/readied, your damage and utility would drop off so quickly in mid levels that it just wouldn't be fun. It'd be even worse if you tried to do a "delayed initiating" thing like the paladin gets with spells. As is, 6th level initiating only barely keeps up, and that's only because 6th level maneuvers are the transition point and contain a lot of gems.

[Seerow]

After having read it, there is probably only three aspects that you guys might "possibly" ever touch in the future Variant Multiclassing options for your DSP classes, stamina options for your DSP combat feats, and skill unlocks for Autohypnosis. Aside from that, I don't think there's anything to support from a 3rd party perspective, since I don't think DSP would want to do any "unchained" classes.

Stamina seems like the most likely tie-in, if the system gains any sort of traction, it's as good a system as any to implement meta-maneuver feats that I've seen asked for from time to time. VMC has been balanced to such a weak baseline as to be useless, since if you tried to write a VMC option that was actually good it'd get compared to actual VMC options and be decried OP. Unlocks for Autohypnosis might not be a bad thing to explore, and that's something that could really get slotted in anywhere as a short sidebar.

[The Glyphstone]

The Vigilante gets both Stalker Arts and Investigator Talents, although both lists are limited. Inspiration can also be used on skill checks and ability checks. I know everybody looks at Vigilante and goes "STRIKER!" but really, inspiration and the INT focus was meant to help put it in more of a skill monkey role.

I think that's because it is Batman, and for all his rep as 'The World's Greatest Detective', he spends most of his time using kung-fu on bad guys.

[Elricaltovilla]

I think that's because it is Batman, and for all his rep as 'The World's Greatest Detective', he spends most of his time using kung-fu on bad guys.

I blame Christopher Nolan.

The Stalker isn't hurting for DPR, and the Vigilante Stalker really isn't losing any DPR options either. In order to better fit with all the possible batmans, I think it's better to expand options for mastering new skills and utility actions.

[Doomeye56]

Off topic I'd rather see more "world's greatest detective." Then "worlds smartest man ever." That he has developed into lately.

4 level iniating just doesn't sound fun.

[Deadkitten]

Yeah, we're going to lay off of Unchained for now. I haven't even gotten hands on a PDF of it yet, and no one above myself has mentioned a care about looking into it yet. That said, there definitely could be a design link for stamina and maneuvers, but I would need the book first.

The forecast is basically calling for Expanded to be at least a moderate success for the company, if that works, then we'll talk Kickstarter for an Ultimate, as well proposed Path of War: Augmented books that focus on singular classes within the Path of War line, and maybe a Path of War: Unlimited that basically goes into "everyone else" land like what you were suggesting. But let's worry about Expanded first :)

-X

And I understand that, that is perfectly fine. I just wanted to highlight particular aspects of the book that could have a major impact on games. For the most part, Stamina seems kinda of a sub-par system that I don't see many DM's banning it for any other reason than that they don't have the book, but there are some gems in there that I can see as being very popular and widespread.

A good example of some weirdness that you already know about is that with Pathfinder Unchained and Path of War, you can have a character who is using a style feat, a martial stance, and a rage power stance at the same time.

[Elricaltovilla]

For the most part, Stamina seems kinda of a sub-par system that I don't see many DM's banning it for any other reason than that they don't have the book, but there are some gems in there that I can see as being very popular and widespread.

Paizo's Design Philosophy in a Nutshell

A good example of some weirdness that you already know about is that with Pathfinder Unchained and Path of War, you can have a character who is using a style feat, a martial stance, and a rage power stance at the same time.

Yep. I want more though. We should have wildshape stances, and Domain Stances, and Metamagic Stances, and...

[Doomeye56]

Metamagic stances.....that sounds like an idea there.

Burning the world with sofistcated foot placement.

[Seerow]

Yep. I want more though. We should have wildshape stances, and Domain Stances, and Metamagic Stances, and...

Psionic Stances! An extention of Psionic Focus, where you expend power points every round that you stay in the stance in exchange for very powerful defensive options. Leaving the stance causes some sort of status effect to discourage hopping in and out when you need it to just make it a cheap swift action defensive power. You can end the Stance with any effect that normally ends the effects of Psionic focus, but increasing the power of that effect.

[AGrinningCat]

Also while I still have this idea rolling around in my head; is there any design space for messing with the maneuvers themselves?

Ideas such as Enchanted Maneuvers, Signature Maneuvers, Maneuvers that grant bonuses while you keep them readied...

Enchanted Maneuvers is pretty straight forward; Slapping on Enchantments for GP onto maneuvers to increase their potential. There could be a couple of ways to go about this (Rod of Meta-magic use/day), but I want to explore the possibility of using Weapon Enchantments to boost the maneuvers themselves.

Take for example: Ghost touch is a +1 bonus -- enchanting a weapon to make it ghost touch means you have to have a +2 weapon (8,000gp). What if we skip the middleman and just slap Ghost Touch straight to the maneuver? 2,000gp is expensive just for a single maneuver, but for half or even a fourth of the cost (1k or 500gp) enchanting a favored maneuver to gain the Ghost Touch property could lead to some interesting ways to spend your WBL. Naturally, over the course of the game, you upgrade maneuvers, so I had originally a different solution (Signature maneuvers, see below), but even having the properties transitive when you replace them (As long as they are the same type) could work. Boosts, Strikes, Counters could get a discount, while Stances might have to be purchased for full cost, if even allowed at all.

Signature Maneuvers... The long and short of the idea is that you could take feat(s) to empower a single maneuver (Either just one or maybe one per type). There are probably many ways to go about this (Straight idea would be Feat grants X to maneuver, perhaps scales over levels), but an idea I want to float is Gestalt Maneuvers. Let's say I'm a Broken Blade/Golden Lion focused Steelfist Commando. As a signature maneuver, I want something that combines the unarmed discipline with the group boost of Golden Lion. Taking two matching maneuvers (Strikes, Boosts, counters) and taking the best of both worlds could go a long way to customizing a player's abilities.

Using the Broken Blade/Golden Lion, I could choose Shards of Iron Strike (Potential for Stagger) and Call to Action (+2d6 damage and grant an ally a move action). Renaming it to Shards of Call to Iron Action Strike (Or something a bit more sensible), it'd be a standard action that inflicts +2d6 damage, stagger, then grant an ally a move action.

It's a system capable of hilarious abuse, but oh, the possibilities make me drool a bit.

Finally -- Maneuvers that grant bonuses while readied (But not expended). I originally thought of this as a feat idea that when you spend 10 minutes readying maneuvers, you can activate this feat to choose a maneuver that you have readied, and as long as you don't expended this maneuver, you keep the bonus. If the maneuver ever becomes expended, you lose the bonus (Even if you recover it) until you can spend 10 minutes re-activating the feat. This could also just be a normal part of the maneuver, such as Thrashing Dragon's Leaping Dragon could grant a passive boost to jumping.

Why suggest this?

Clock-watcher from Riven Hourglass opens up a neat design space for maneuvers -- Highly situational maneuvers. Right now Clock watcher does one thing -- Allow you to act in the surprise round. If you're not surprised, it does nothing. Even if you are surprised, it does one thing, and even recovering it later in the round grants you nothing. It's good when you need it, but how often does one get surprised? But if you don't ready it, you can't use it.

I see some guides recommending taking a feat just to have this readied at all times, but I feel that taking a feat to give it some sort of static bonus wouldn't be bad either. Quick example: A feat could grant a +2 to initiative as long as the maneuver hasn't been expended since you've last readied maneuvers, or a strike could grant +1 bleed damage per hit per level of the maneuver 'held' to all your attacks with the same conditions outlined earlier. I personally like this idea since it opens up the idea that maneuvers don't have to be universally useful to be useful -- Highly situational ones could find use on the sidelines by granting passive effects. Tying a feat into it gives it an opportunity cost as well, making it a choice (That the player can choose) when grabbing those feats.

All in all, just some ideas that I wanted to get out of my mind before I forgot about them.

[tekevil]

I'd say unchained holds more for DSP as a whole.

They probably want to define some Psionic, Akashic, and Path of War actions for the action point system. Do skill unlocks, Update the Psionic Rogue Talents, I think there was a psionic Monk archetype too, maybe unchain some classes who need help, VMC for completion sake, and maybe others.

[AGrinningCat]

As cool as Unchained is, though, I don't think we'll see much support for it. Stamina might get some love since it allows things like 10 int fighters to get the combat expertise feat, or Kirin Style, but as is I think most people will stick to core.

[PlatinumVixen]

A good example of some weirdness that you already know about is that with Pathfinder Unchained and Path of War, you can have a character who is using a style feat, a martial stance, and a rage power stance at the same time.

I noticed this shortly after purchasing Unchained. It's fun trying to imagine someone standing in three (possibly four) completely seperate martial artsy stances at once while also being incredibly angry. Martials sure are doing a lot of multitasking now.

I gave some thought to homebrewing a Maneuvers-expend-Stamina points system since my games use Spheres of Power, but that's not something I wish to throw at my players right now and I'm not 100 percent sure how it would work given how many points Stamina tricks cost in the first place.

Really I like most of Unchained but the Stamina system is just kind of a bummer outside of a few amazingly powerful tricks (kirin style's trick is going to make the party's harbinger's day). It feels way too all over the place, though I'm glad it exists.

[squiggit]

Yep. I want more though. We should have wildshape stances, and Domain Stances, and Metamagic Stances, and...

Is it bad that I actually think some of these sound cool?

[Ilorin Lorati]

Is it bad that I actually think some of these sound cool?

Is it bad that I think all of them sound cool? Perhaps impractical, but cool?

[master4sword]

So, I'm considering making a Mystic Archetype, the Bloodborne Mystic, that swaps out Glyphs for a bloodline. The problem I'm torn on is should it be a Bloodrager or a Sorcerer bloodline? My current thought is that when you would get a bloodline spell, you get it as a 1/day SLA

Sorcerer. Bloodrager bloodline powers often need bloodrage.

[Elricaltovilla]

Is it bad that I actually think some of these sound cool?

Is it bad that I think all of them sound cool? Perhaps impractical, but cool?

Coming this summer from Dreamscarred Press:

Stances: The Standing Book Of Stances

[AGrinningCat]

Coming this summer from Dreamscarred Press:

Stances: The Standing Book Of Stances

I'm not buying it unless it comes with it's own stands.

[Elricaltovilla]

I'm not buying it unless it comes with it's own stands.

Good News Everyone!

That's one of the stretch goals.

[squiggit]

Good News Everyone!

That's one of the stretch goals.

I will totally kick start that.

I'm not even being facetious.

[Seerow]

So asking for advice here from people more familiar with Harbinger and its unique disciplines:

In the upcoming AP I am running, there's a vengeful intelligent undead who I am redesigning by giving some Harbinger levels. He has 4 base hit dice, so gets to start with 2nd level maneuvers (IL3 at Harbinger 1), and will be gaining 3 Harbinger levels (so will have 1 3rd level maneuver). Looking for advice on maneuver selection, and complementary feats. Ideally I would like to keep the Ranseur he has as his signature weapon in the AP, so maneuvers that will work well with polearms would be ideal, but I can change it if that just doesn't work with the Harbinger at all. Any stand out suggestions here?

[The Glyphstone]

Isn't Unquiet Grave an associated discipline for Harbinger?

[Elricaltovilla]

So asking for advice here from people more familiar with Harbinger and its unique disciplines:

In the upcoming AP I am running, there's a vengeful intelligent undead who I am redesigning by giving some Harbinger levels. He has 4 base hit dice, so gets to start with 2nd level maneuvers (IL3 at Harbinger 1), and will be gaining 3 Harbinger levels (so will have 1 3rd level maneuver). Looking for advice on maneuver selection, and complementary feats. Ideally I would like to keep the Ranseur he has as his signature weapon in the AP, so maneuvers that will work well with polearms would be ideal, but I can change it if that just doesn't work with the Harbinger at all. Any stand out suggestions here?

Depends on what you want him to do. There's a lot of flexibility inherent in the maneuver system, so we could probably help you build him however you want. Almost all Disciplines can be used with just about any weapon, unless you really want that bonus from using a discipline weapon (hint: weapon group adaptation).