MS Paint Adventures VIII: H8ers Gonna H8

[Sigh]

The thing about inbreeding is that while it does amplify the rate of "negative" traits, it also does the same for "positive" and "neutral" traits as well. Therefore it's theoretically possible to use that inbreeding to your advantage and spawn offspring that only have those "positive" traits. A similar process can be seen in Gattacca, where everyone is practically identical through gene manipulation, done by heavy screening and marking specific gametes for use.

Though really the only way I can see the Ectobiology thing working is if the machines can just pick and choose a whole bunch of people from Earth, in a way similar to how the kids were made but this time with just random strangers they find in the past.

[Rater202]

If I remember correctly, they do have an Earth,and therefor an earth History, so they have an entire Earth History to pick from for human clones.

[Sigh]

Assuming that that's actually possible to do, if I recall correctly the machines John (and presumably Karkat) worked on only did their job if they had a pre-existing sample to lock on to from the past. It didn't seem like there was a "randomize" function.

[Rater202]

They could hack it.

[Sigh]

Well yeah but that would just be cheating, it's much more satisfying from a story perspective if they solve this problem using something that already existed in the story for that purpose beforehand, that kind of stuff is Hussie's bread and butter you know.

[Randomguy]

The thing about inbreeding is that while it does amplify the rate of "negative" traits, it also does the same for "positive" and "neutral" traits as well. Therefore it's theoretically possible to use that inbreeding to your advantage and spawn offspring that only have those "positive" traits. A similar process can be seen in Gattacca, where everyone is practically identical through gene manipulation, done by heavy screening and marking specific gametes for use.

Sort of. Inbreeding can be used to produce desirable traits, but not only the desirable traits without any of the undesirable ones. It's something livestock breeders and dog breeders do, to get cows that produce more milk or pedigree dogs that look a certain way. It also tends to cause all sorts of genetic problems, which is why mongrels tend to be healthier then pedigree dogs.

Also, having a uniform population like that is actually really, really undesirable. It makes it a lot easier for a single plague to wipe everyone out.

Assuming that that's actually possible to do, if I recall correctly the machines John (and presumably Karkat) worked on only did their job if they had a pre-existing sample to lock on to from the past. It didn't seem like there was a "randomize" function.

There actually is a randomizer button. Well, sort of. Here's the relevant pesterlog.

Spoiler: Quoting the relevant text

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GA: Yes But This Isnt All There Is To The Cloning Process
GA: A True Paradox Clone Is An Exact Genetic Duplicate Of The Subject
GA: Later That Clone Will Be Sent Back In Time To Become Itself
GA: In Fact If It Is An Exact Duplicate This Is Guaranteed To Happen
GA: This Is What Classifies It As A Paradox Clone
GA: Any Duplicate Which Genetically Deviates From The Original Is Not
GA: It Is Simply A Mutant
GA: And For Breeding Purposes Mutation Is Desirable
GA: Within Reason
GA: You May Adjust The Settings On The Equipment To Promote Genetic Anomalies
GA: But Its Very Delicate And You Can Go Too Far

[Draconi Redfir]

ehh just remember how john did it. scan through the earth's timeline for people, get a jar of ecto-goo from them, make a baby clone from that goo, then if you want, mix that goo with the goo of annother person, and make two babies out of the mixture goo. Mam, you got like four babies from two people right there.

[Rater202]

Problem:Proper Paradox clones must travel back in time to become the original.

so only the hybrid or mutant clones would be stick around.

[Draconi Redfir]

well technically no. Remember how Jade did her frog breeding? it was much the same as John's human-breeding, but her clone frogs never became the frogs that they were cloned from. All she had to do was make sure that the frogs she paradox cloned had a fate, a future that could not be avoided, as such she'd take note of where they were, get their goop, and in the future, go find them in person and move them around a bit.

Seeing as all of humanity on new-earth has died, they've all had a fate that can't be changed. As a result they'd all give paradox goo like Jade's Frogs.

And even if the humans wind up somewhat mutated, so what? That just means new genes to work with. They might need to dispose of any bad offspring like that one Jasper's clone that was two separate cats merged at the waist, but all in all it shouldn't be a problem.

[Rater202]

John takes Paradox slime from Nana, Bro, Mom, and Grandpa.

Slime is used to create John, Dave, Rose, and Jade, as well as Paradox Clones of Nana, Bro, Mom, and Grandpa.

In the original, Pre Scratch Timeline, the Paradox Clones of Nana, Bro, Mom, and Grandpa were sent back in time and became the original Nana, Bro, Mom, and Granpa, thus making their existance a stable timeloop.

All Paradox Clones go back in time to become the original, baring a Scratch.

So you could not use Paradox slime and ectobiology to create perfect copies of people from human history,because they would inevitably go back in time and become the original.

That leaves hybrid clones(combining traits from the originals), and imperfect mutant clones.Even the hybrid clones are iffy, because the hybrid clones from a session created batch of babies are also sent back in time to become the players of the game

[Hytheter]

Even the hybrid clones are iffy, because the hybrid clones from a session created batch of babies are also sent back in time to become the players of the game

Just because the ones we've seen were sent back doesn't mean they all have to be.

[Rater202]

Just because the ones we've seen were sent back doesn't mean they all have to be.

Which is why I said "iffy."

[Draconi Redfir]

okay so how did Jade do her frog breeding then? She's clearly getting tadpoles out of slime, and there was zero time travel involved same for Dave going backwards in time to collect multiple frogs at once to ensure they had a fate.

[Randomguy]

okay so how did Jade do her frog breeding then? She's clearly getting tadpoles out of slime, and there was zero time travel involved same for Dave going backwards in time to collect multiple frogs at once to ensure they had a fate.

She "adjusted the settings to promote genetic anomalies". When you're frog breeding you want to make mutants rather than exact clones.

[Rater202]

okay so how did Jade do her frog breeding then? She's clearly getting tadpoles out of slime, and there was zero time travel involved same for Dave going backwards in time to collect multiple frogs at once to ensure they had a fate.

Those were mutants.

[Draconi Redfir]

ahhh i see. Well in that case there really isn't a problem then is there? that's kind of the thing that makes individuals individuals, that their genetic code is different from one annother. even now you have many mutated or altered genes that aren't 100% from either of your parents, they're what make you you. So other then the odd four-armed baby that might need to be delt with i don't really see the problem in using the veil technology to re-make some human babies in a simmiler fashion to the frog breeding.

[Rater202]

Your initial post implied that you forsaw them making actual paradox clones of people from earth, as opposed to hybrids and mutants(and in fact your wording implied that hybrids would be a post script)

[Draconi Redfir]

ah, yeah i kind of did. I thought they'd be able to make a clone of say me for example using the goop, and it wouldn't need to be sent back to become "me" me because i'm not a sburb player or something. my mistake.

[Rater202]

So, I'm rereading Paradox space, because I'm out of stuff to read, and because rereading cannon home stuck requires more dedicated effort than I can afford to give right now, seeing as I'n back in school.

I'm at the "Mother ang Grub"story.

I've noticed something that I think is probably meant to be an ironic joke.

Canonically, the Signless apparently had no lusus to care for him, as one did not yet exist.

The Crocodile Lusus that carried off wiggler signless had a heart emoticon above it.

As though it was carrying him off to raise him.

And the two mouthed lion was smiling. when it carried him off.

Like most of the Paradox Space stories, the story is probably not canon, but I can't help but think that the idea that the Troll Jesus is a thing because of a misunderstanding is hilarious on multiple levels, so I'm headcanoning it.

[Radar]

Like most of the Paradox Space stories, the story is probably not canon (...)

Actually, at one point Andrew Hussie declared all fantrolls canon. The original post is for some reason lost, but here is a copy. It's not a fake, since I remember this announcement going live.

I'm not sure, if it changes anything about Paradox Space, but it was such a Hussie thing to do that I felt you should know about it.

[Rater202]

Statistically speaking, with not one but two millennia long civilizations, it is not improbable that all of the Fan Trolls would have existed at some point in time.

Also, Hussie is known for trolling.

[AgentPaper]

Statistically speaking, with not one but two millennia long civilizations, it is not improbable that all of the Fan Trolls would have existed at some point in time.

Also, Hussie is known for trolling.

You could say that he was...



Fan trolling.

[Rater202]

You know, I realized something.

when I was reading the start of Hive Bent,when the trolls were bineg introduced, one of my earliar thoughts was "you know, those powers would synch pretty well" to the point of putting the trolls or trolls like them on my "Too Eat list" under the "Only under conjunction with other things" category.

I didn't realize it at the time I was reading through it, but it seams like Batter Witch had the same general idea, what with giving herself the psychic powers of the low bloods(and possibly the other powers of the other bloods, we don't know yet)

[Lord Raziere]

yup, all fan trolls are canon. they're also all dead. so it evens out, that and Hussie can now say he has killed off every single fan troll without lying.

[Rater202]

So, I've got a couple theories I'd like to share.

Spoiler: Theory One

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John has Retcon Powers.

Retcon powers can create new Alpha timelines.

Lord English can only be killed by taking advantage of glitches in the fabric of time.

I think. That they're going to have to use the Retcon powes again. They're going to have John do the Retconny thingy, carrying Karkat, and a metric ****Ton of Soper Slime. And have im go back, to the metoer, again.

And they're going to Shooshpap Gamzee as soon as he starts to go crazy, and then drug him to the gills so that he forgets that he saw the one ICP video.

Thus, Lord English will never exist, because Gamzee would be too high to be devoted to him, and thus would not be helping Caliborn, and Without Gamzee's rampage, there won't be a dead Equuis, and thus there would not be an ARquuis.

Thus, there's only be a Caliborn to deal with, not a Lord English.

Of Course, it would inevitably lead to a worse Timeline, and they'd have to go back and Reverse the Retcon, but, well, with how Long Act Six went, the Seventh and Final Act could be really fracking long, and it does sound like the thing to try.

Spoiler: Theory Two

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Karkat is unconscious.

Lacking a live Dreamself, Karkat ges to the Dream Bubble's when he sleeps.

I postulate that, while in the Dream Bubbles, he's going to meat some kind of Badass God-Tiered alt KK from a doomed Timeline, or like, maybe the Dream bubbles are the after life for everyone and he'll meet Post Scratch TrollJegus!Kankri/Signless/Sufferer, or something or other, and eventually he'll find out what it is that the Aspect of Blood means.

Time Bubble Shenanigans to God-Tier without having the necessary stuff optional.

Thoughts?

[Lord Raziere]

Spoiler: Theory One

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I don't think it'll be that simple.

we're playing timeline jenga here. only the jenga tower is a spirograph forever looping back upon itself.

Gamzee doesn't just affect events of the future, he affects events of the past as well, see? No Gamzee going crazy, no chucklevoodoo cursing the timeline, no Bec Noir appearing, no Bec Noir going to the trolls session and screwing it up which means no trolls trolling the kids, no Gamzee to be in the position to go crazy in the first place.

furthermore, no Gamzee going crazy and worshipping Caliborn, means no Doc Scratch. No Doc Scratch means no person to manipulate the trolls, meaning no Alternia, no Alternia means no Earth. heck, because the Beforus players are all grubs from the Alternian session, that means they don't exist either. congrats, you've rewound us back to Beforus without any trolls to start the session.

Spoiler: Theory Two

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Maybe, who knows? maybe he will meet that badass alt-Calliope who will explain it, maybe he will meet Meenah, Tavros, Vriska and the other trolls and go off to fight Lord English, could be anything.

[Rater202]

Spoiler: Theory One

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I don't think it'll be that simple.

we're playing timeline jenga here. only the jenga tower is a spirograph forever looping back upon itself.

Gamzee doesn't just affect events of the future, he affects events of the past as well, see? No Gamzee going crazy, no chucklevoodoo cursing the timeline, no Bec Noir appearing, no Bec Noir going to the trolls session and screwing it up which means no trolls trolling the kids, no Gamzee to be in the position to go crazy in the first place.

furthermore, no Gamzee going crazy and worshipping Caliborn, means no Doc Scratch. No Doc Scratch means no person to manipulate the trolls, meaning no Alternia, no Alternia means no Earth. heck, because the Beforus players are all grubs from the Alternian session, that means they don't exist either. congrats, you've rewound us back to Beforus without any trolls to start the session.

Which is why this plot would end with them reversing the retcon, because it would make things worse.

[Lord Raziere]

Which is why this plot would end with them reversing the retcon, because it would make things worse.

Wrong, the plot would end because none of the characters would exist. you are technically right in that Lord English would be gone, but so would everyone else. the comic runs on stable time loops, you break the loop, the whole thing falls apart. the only one who might be able to survive would be John, assuming that he doesn't vanish as well from the fact that there would be no John to go grab the retcon house and become this retcon person in the first place, as well as there being no retcon house to grab, because Caliborn never finds it, because he doesn't exist either.

just because John can retcon things doesn't mean he is immune to logic and sense. the changes have to make sense within the causal reality he inhabits, or there is no causal reality to inhabit at all.

[Rater202]

John has interacted with himself without remembering doing so before hand, and he's been referred to as being "Unstuck in Existance."

He's also interacting with a timeline that is not his timeline, but is not doomed, as is Roxy.

Also, as Demonstrated by GhostVriska, GhostTavros, Roxy, and John himself, entities from the pre-retcon Timeline still exist post Retcon.

I think it's safe to assume that John, if no one else, would still be around to fix it.

[Sigh]

In any case while it's a fun theory the reality is that the comic, in Hussie's own words, is nearly complete and the plot shenanigans you're describing would take up at least 2 more Acts. More likely we're going to see some shenanigans dealing with Caliborn's timeline itself, rather than messing with the timelines any of the kids or trolls.