Magic the Gathering XXI: Tap Target Keg

[tgva8889]

I design a LOT of Commander decks, mainly in my effort to complete my Prismatic Project (one deck of every possible Commander color combination; in combination with my brother), but I'm stuck on interesting ideas for the Sultai deck. I'm trying to come up with an interesting theme, but I'm not really finding anything I want to do. I'm not a big fan of "just jam a bunch of good cards into a deck," but I can't think of a theme I really want to do. I kinda want to do something less obvious and more creative. Anyone have any suggestions?

For those who are curious, my current list in the spoiler:

Spoiler: tgva's Commander decks

Show

White: Darien, King of Kjeldor - Suicide Tokens
Blue: Thassa, God of the Sea - Giant Sea Monster Tribal
Black: Phage the Untouchable - Build-Around "Voltron"
Green: Reki, the History of Kamigawa - Mono-Green Control
W/U: Isperia the Inscrutable - Random Fliers (79 base cards, including no fliers, plus 20 fliers randomly drawn from a stack of fun fliers)
U/B: Mirko Vosk, Mind Drinker - Mill (Used to be called the Szadeck)
B/R: Rakdos, Lord of Riots - Using Flame Rift as the Best Ritual Ever/Casting free Eldrazi
R/G: Thromok the Instatiable - Tokens/Sacrifice and really really large Thromok
G/W: Chorus of the Conclave - Hatebears
W/B: Obzedat, Ghost Council - Lifegain
U/R: Nin, the Pain Artist - Politico
U/R: Melek, Izzet Paragon - Giant Spells (I have two UR decks because I love Nin)
B/G: Skullbriar, the Walking Grave - Voltron
R/W: Gisela, Blade of Goldnight - Forcing Attacks and Punishing for them
G/U: Vorel of the Hull Clade - A bajillion counters
Bant: Roon of the Hidden Realm - Inoffensive Blink
Jund: Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund - Haste Theme Deck
Naya: Marath, Will of the Wild - Lands and Counters
Jeskai: Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest - Prowess Theme Deck
Mardu: Tariel, Reckoner of Souls - Creatureless Control

[Lea Plath]

What about colour messing? Have a deck focused around changing the colours of cards in combination with stuff like the guild champions etc.

[tgva8889]

Hmm, that's interesting. I can certainly see the Blue and some of the Black in there, but I'm not sure how much including Green does. I can only think of one Green card that contributes in particular, though I could play some that manipulate colors and such. I am excited by the idea of manipulating land types and related cards with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Color Spray.

[Lea Plath]

Green likes green. Mormir Vig and the new bellower seem good cards. Add in Loam/the retrace colour change etc

[Binks]

Doesn't the wording of Chain Veil technically prevent it from working more than once? It's modifying rules text, so multiple instances of "you can do this once" shouldn't stack.

It's not modifying rule text though. It's granting you permission to perform an action this turn that you normally would not be able to perform. It sets up permission for you to, once this turn, per planeswalker, activate one loyalty ability as though none had been activated.

You have, by default, permission to activate a planeswalker ability at sorcery speed as long as none have been activated this turn (306.5d).

Chain Veil gives you permission to activate a planeswalker ability at normal speed once as though none had been activated.

Think of it like getting extra land drops. The rules say you can do it once on your turn, the card says you can do it an additional time. If you get multiple instances of 'you can do this an additional time this turn' they stack without issue.

[sonofzeal]

It's not modifying rule text though. It's granting you permission to perform an action this turn that you normally would not be able to perform. It sets up permission for you to, once this turn, per planeswalker, activate one loyalty ability as though none had been activated.

You have, by default, permission to activate a planeswalker ability at sorcery speed as long as none have been activated this turn (306.5d).

Chain Veil gives you permission to activate a planeswalker ability at normal speed once as though none had been activated.

Think of it like getting extra land drops. The rules say you can do it once on your turn, the card says you can do it an additional time. If you get multiple instances of 'you can do this an additional time this turn' they stack without issue.

If it said "you can do this an additional time this turn", I'd agree with you. Instead, though, it says "you can do this once (as if you hadn't before)". It's the "once" that's giving me trouble here.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

If it said "you can do this an additional time this turn", I'd agree with you. Instead, though, it says "you can do this once (as if you hadn't before)". It's the "once" that's giving me trouble here.

The once is odd, yes. It should be cut completely, since it doesn't actually change the effect.

Every instance of the ability is read as a separate instance:

"For each planeswalker you control, you may activate one of its loyalty abilities once this turn as though none of its loyalty abilities have been activated this turn."

So every time we effectively reset the use of loyalty abilities (which would be default include activates from Chain Veil itself, and then, for every Planeswalker we control, we may use one ability once.

We then untap, use the ability again, and we may repeat the process "as though none of its loyalty abilities have been activated this turn," which bypasses any turn-wide single-use that any effect may have applied.

EDIT: Actually, check that. The "once" is important, as otherwise the effect could be interpreted as going infinite. The clause "you may activate one of its loyalty abilities once this turn as though none of its loyalty abilities have been activated this turn" might be able to be taken as "no matter how many times I activate this one ability, I treat is as having not been activated this turn," which the addition of "once" prevents.

[sonofzeal]

The once is odd, yes. It should be cut completely, since it doesn't actually change the effect.

Every instance of the ability is read as a separate instance:

"For each planeswalker you control, you may activate one of its loyalty abilities once this turn as though none of its loyalty abilities have been activated this turn."

So every time we effectively reset the use of loyalty abilities (which would be default include activates from Chain Veil itself, and then, for every Planeswalker we control, we may use one ability once.

We then untap, use the ability again, and we may repeat the process "as though none of its loyalty abilities have been activated this turn," which bypasses any turn-wide single-use that any effect may have applied.

EDIT: Actually, check that. The "once" is important, as otherwise the effect could be interpreted as going infinite. The clause "you may activate one of its loyalty abilities once this turn as though none of its loyalty abilities have been activated this turn" might be able to be taken as "no matter how many times I activate this one ability, I treat is as having not been activated this turn," which the addition of "once" prevents.

So...... each activation of Chain Veil effectively resets the counter to zero? Meaning, if you activated Chain Veil twice in a row without activating a Planeswalker in between, you could only activate that Planeswalker once more instead of twice?

[Binks]

If it said "you can do this an additional time this turn", I'd agree with you. Instead, though, it says "you can do this once (as if you hadn't before)". It's the "once" that's giving me trouble here.

The 'once' is just there to note that you may only do it once per activation. For every instance of the chain veil resolving you get a separate permission slip to activate your planeswalkers once. You can cash in as many permission slips as you can get during your turn though, as each one (each instance of the ability resolving) is separate.

Maybe this will help. Each time the ability of the chain veil resolves you can imaging you receive a little permission slip that says 'Once during this turn, I may use one loyalty ability, per planeswalker I control, ignoring the normal rule restriction that prevents me from using multiple loyalty abilities per permanent (but not ignoring the timing restrictions or any other rules governing ability activation).'

It's important to remember that abilities are separate from the object that creates them. The moment the chain veil ability is put on the stack it isn't attached in any way, shape, or form to the veil that created it. You can sac it, blow it up, flicker, bounce, whatever it and you still have the extra planeswalker use until end of turn if the ability resolves. Creating a dozen separate abilities that let you activate a loyalty ability (once during your turn, ignoring restrictions on activating multiple loyalty abilities in a turn) means you can use the abilities a dozen extra times.

So...... each activation of Chain Veil effectively resets the counter to zero? Meaning, if you activated Chain Veil twice in a row without activating a Planeswalker in between, you could only activate that Planeswalker once more instead of twice?

No. There is no counter. Nothing in the game counts the number of activations of loyalty abilities in a turn. The rules state that, by default, you can only use a loyalty ability if that permanent has not used a loyalty ability so far this turn. Have you used a loyalty ability of this permanent this turn, binary yes/no?

Chain veil doesn't give you permission to do it one more time, after the first. It gives you permission to do it once with fewer restrictions than the rules normally have. The permission given by the Chain Veil is broader than the normal rules permission but it does not overwrite or replace that permission.

You have permission (once the chain veil ability resolves) to activate the loyalty abilities of your permanents once when the stack is clear on your turn and the permanent hasn't used any loyalty abilities (306.5d), and once when the stack is clear on your turn regardless of whether it has used any loyalty abilities or not (chain veil). Adding more permissions just adds more of that second type to the list.

To give an example, if I untap, use the chain veil three times, then go to activate my planeswalkers (at sorcery speed), for each one I have the following options:
1. Use rule 306.5d's default permission to activate one loyalty ability of this permanent. I have not yet activated any abilities this turn, so the rules will let me do this.
2. Use the Chain Veil's first activation permission slip which says I may use a loyalty ability of this permanent as though I hadn't used any this turn.
3. Use the Chain Veil's second activation permission slip which says I may use a loyalty ability of this permanent as though I hadn't used any this turn.
4. Use the Chain Veil's third activation permission slip which says I may use a loyalty ability of this permanent as though I hadn't used any this turn.

After my first activation of a loyalty ability I can no longer used the first option (which is why it's generally assumed to be the default first loyalty ability usage) but I can still use 2-4. If I use #2's permission I still have 3 and 4 until I use them.

[tgva8889]

Green likes green. Mormir Vig and the new bellower seem good cards. Add in Loam/the retrace colour change etc

The problem is that it's very hard to manipulate the color of cards that are in my library or hand, so Momir Vig will be harder to artificially trigger although not impossible. I don't think the new Bellower also can be manipulated, because there's no time between when it triggers and when I can alter the color word in its ability.

[Mystic Muse]

This is where it would be nice if Painter's Servant weren't banned. :P

[tgva8889]

On one hand it would be, on the other hand there's too many different cards that would make it really annoying to have available. Better to ban it than allow it and ban all the cards that make it awful, especially when only one of them is a card anyone plays in Commander without it.

[Mystic Muse]

Honestly, I just think there are neat interactions that can exist with it. There's very little unfair that can be done with it that can't already be done some other way. There's also the argument that anyone who would use the servant to grief isn't suddenly going to not be a griefer just because the card is banned.

The point is moot since it's banned and not coming off, I just think there are plenty of fair neat interactions that can be used with it.

[Lea Plath]

Srsly. Unban Painter's Servant. Ban Grindstone and Iona. Cards are unfun, yo.

And you simply change Vig so whenever you cast, lets say a green spell, you tutor and draw. You can also add in some land denial elements by messing with the colours they tap for.

[Mystic Muse]

Srsly. Unban Painter's Servant. Ban Grindstone and Iona. Cards are unfun, yo.

Grindstone doesn't do anything with servant that can't be done already with helm. The only advantage it has is being usable in colorless decks.

Iona shouldn't be banned because of servant or as a swap ban, she should be banned on her own merits. The thing is, at least one member of the RC wants her to stay in because "mono color decks need a weakness"

And there are similar locks to Iona anyway. I don't know what the big deal about Iona-lock is when there are several other brutal locks available, or instant win combos. It's basically just an instant win combo.

[Sith_Happens]

The thing is, at least one member of the RC wants her to stay in because "mono color decks need a weakness"

[Lea Plath]

Grindstone doesn't do anything with servant that can't be done already with helm. The only advantage it has is being usable in colorless decks.

Iona shouldn't be banned because of servant or as a swap ban, she should be banned on her own merits. The thing is, at least one member of the RC wants her to stay in because "mono color decks need a weakness"

And there are similar locks to Iona anyway. I don't know what the big deal about Iona-lock is when there are several other brutal locks available, or instant win combos. It's basically just an instant win combo.

Painter+Grindstone is a cheap combo that can go into deck though. Helm is also 4 mana and requires a 2 or 4 mana enchantment that hurts you generally.

Iona is just unfun. Mono decks weakness is they lose splashes and can't deal with stuff effectively. Red cannot kill enchantments. Black cannot kill artifacts or enchantments. White cannot touch the hand. Blue can only bounce and counter. Green doesn't really interact with stack etc. Iona is just unfun.

@SITH: YES :D

[Mystic Muse]

Black can deal with artifacts, but it requires old cards that aren't very good.

Anyway, that's not my argument. I am fine with Iona being banned, assuming it's on her own merits. Banming 2 cards specifically to unban 1 is a terrible idea though, just on principle. In this case, I doubt anyone would miss them, but in general, ban 2 to unban 1 is bad.

[tgva8889]

I don't think any of the interesting things that you can do with Painter's Servant are worth allowing it to be legal. While I'm sure Wizards pays some attention, chances are high that eventually they'll print something else that makes Painter's Servant some sort of ridiculously broken engine. At the end of the day, Painter's Servant is the card that makes the really broken and unfun things happen, and banning it so those things don't happen seems like a fine call.

There are many different colorless answers to creatures, a large number of which are commonly played in mono-color decks, so while Iona is really really bad for mono-color decks, she's not the most unbeatable. I'm not a fan of Iona and I don't play her a lot, but given some of the things that are allowed in Commander it doesn't seem unreasonable for her to be allowed. It's like Wake of Destruction; sometimes people deserve it, but you should only bust it out if that's the sort of game the table wants to play.

I probably won't play Momir Vig in particular mostly since he requires me to play creatures that I want to cast and then search for more creatures, and I really just don't want to search my deck that much. But I'll probably mess around with this idea, as it's pretty interesting and I have been looking for a good excuse to play Glamerdye and similar cards. Changing color words is actually super hilarious. Now I just have to figure out some good green spells to play in this deck; most of the ideas I have involve only black and blue cards. Turns out changing colors with the Paladins is really great. By the way, you haven't lived until you've changed a Cabal Coffers from a massive mana production source to a land that taps for 0 mana.

[Binks]

Should also be noted that Origins just printed another grindstone effect (Sphinx's Tutelage) so unbanning Painter's Servant means at least 2 bans (I'm not familiar with what card 'helm' refers to, but sounds like it would have to be banned as well, so that would make 3 bans to unban 1 card).

[Shadow of the Sun]

Should also be noted that Origins just printed another grindstone effect (Sphinx's Tutelage) so unbanning Painter's Servant means at least 2 bans (I'm not familiar with what card 'helm' refers to, but sounds like it would have to be banned as well, so that would make 3 bans to unban 1 card).

Reread Sphinx's Tutelage. It can only mill out someone who is playing Oops, All Spells! with Painter's Servant.

[Binks]

Reread Sphinx's Tutelage. It can only mill out someone who is playing Oops, All Spells! with Painter's Servant.

Oh. I had not seen the non-land clause on that card. You are correct, my bad.

[Mystic Muse]

Should also be noted that Origins just printed another grindstone effect (Sphinx's Tutelage) so unbanning Painter's Servant means at least 2 bans (I'm not familiar with what card 'helm' refers to, but sounds like it would have to be banned as well, so that would make 3 bans to unban 1 card).

Helm of Obedience is this card.
http://magiccards.info/ai/en/163.html

Basically, this is why the new wording on mill effects is "reveal cards from the top of your library." With helm of obedience, you get an effect out like leyline of the void, or rest in peace. Because the effect specifies put into the graveyard, and the enchantments make it so no cards hit the graveyard, it exiles their entire deck.

This is a currently legal combo. Painter+Grindstone does something similar, but faster. Not sure how it interacts with eldrazi titans, and too tired to check.

[Ninjaman]

This is a currently legal combo. Painter+Grindstone does something similar, but faster. Not sure how it interacts with eldrazi titans, and too tired to check.

Helm combo or grindstone?

Helm:
The titan is exiled instead of put into the graveyard, therefore it's ability never triggers.

Grindstone:
I think grindstone finishes resolving, putting the entire deck in the yard, then the eldrazi triggers and shuffles itself back inside. They would die if they draw a card in response to that.

[Binks]

Helm of Obedience is this card...

Ah. I had looked up helm cards in magic and figured that was it, but couldn't see what the problem was. Didn't read it too closely. Interesting.

Grindstone/Eldrazi - Eldrazi trigger can't be put on the stack until Grindstone finishes resolving. With painter's servant out this means the entire deck will be milled by Grindstone, then the Eldrazi trigger is put on the stack and the library is shuffled back up.

[9mm]

so I can say with all confidence that White Wheenie is a deck now in standard.

Spoiler

Show

3 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
3 Archangel of Tithes
4 Consul's Lieutenant
4 Anointer of Champions
4 Knight of the White Orchid
3 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
3 Kytheon, Hero of Akros//Gideon, Battleforged

4 Valorous Stance
3 Swift Reckoning
3 Center Soul
4 Raise the Alarm
2 Secure the Wastes

4 Knight of the White Orchid
3 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
3 Kytheon, Hero of Akros

18 Plains
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx

Sideboard
4 Vryn Wingmare
4 Celestial Flare
3 War Horn
4 Radiant Purge

definitely need to cut something for another archangel, and sideboard will probably needs work, but it's been testing well.

[Occasional Sage]

Using Zur the Enchanter, I search my deck and retrieve a Flitterstep Eidolon. Can it be put directly into play only as a creature, or can I enchant Zur with it, making him unblockable?

I contend that since CMC specifically looks at the casting cost, not alternates, I'm fine to Bestow the Flitterstep Eidolon on him for free. Other players... disagreed with me.

[Fable Wright]

Using Zur the Enchanter, I search my deck and retrieve a Flitterstep Eidolon. Can it be put directly into play only as a creature, or can I enchant Zur with it, making him unblockable?

I contend that since CMC specifically looks at the casting cost, not alternates, I'm fine to Bestow the Flitterstep Eidolon on him for free. Other players... disagreed with me.

You can only put it on the battlefield. Flitterstep Eidolon is not an Aura unless it is cast with bestow, and only then until the attached creature dies. As it's not an Aura, and as Zur doesn't force it to enchant a creature, it cannot be attached.

[Duck999]

If something is put into play (for example with unearth), does it use the stack?

[Ninjaman]

If something is put into play (for example with unearth), does it use the stack?

The ability is on the stack. The creature is never on the stack.