afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VI

[WalkingTheShade]

Do membership in Harmonium make Perform (Harmonium) a class skill?
(Harmonium is either this or that)

Does membership in the Transcendent Order give better code-breaking skills?
EDIT: That does fall under Decipher script, doesn't it?

[Eldan]

There's this class in complete divine for religious assassins. Darkflame Zealot, or something like that?

[WalkingTheShade]

There's this class in complete divine for religious assassins. Darkflame Zealot, or something like that?

You mean Black Flamme Zealot? That's not exactly what my player wants and the crunch is underwhelming.

[afroakuma]

Thanks. What about churches of various powers of murder?

Well, let's see... Bhaal is of course dead, which is somewhat limiting for his church. Cas, a demipower of spite and vengeance, might be suitable. Chemosh, the Krynnish deity of murder and undeath, strongly favors the latter aspect; he is an established power, however. Cyric is nuts. Dreaded Kali might work as a patron of assassins... The strange savage gods Kiga and Migal, worshiped in less civilized regions of Zakhara, takes assassins as worshipers... but almost nothing is known about those religions. Nerull takes assassins as followers, but he doesn't have a lot of involvement on the planes. Pyremius would be a decent choice; his philosophy aligns with the Takers. Rallaster and his followers are tremendously insane. Sulerain is a minor deity of slaughter, but she does take assassins as followers; you might be able to work with that. Zinzerena is incredibly minor, but I could see her trying to start sowing seeds on the planes for an eventual move there.

[ShurikVch]

Have I missed anyone?

Off the top of my head, Lolth and Mask have "Assassins" in their portfolios

Also, there was Erebus in Dragon #322

[Naanomi]

Hoar also has assassins, albeit not evil ones

[WalkingTheShade]

Thanks all, for the suggestions.

Because of them, I've been digging around the intrawebs, and stumbled upon the Torilian concept of Exarchs.
(Planar weather forecast: high chances of black lightning, assorted with intermittent banishment into lower planes.)
I don't know much about Faerun. In the context of Faerun, what are Exarchs? What's their relationship to their patron power?
Maglubiyet is described as an Exarch of Bane. However, on the planes, Maglubiyet is a greater power. That seems... weird?

What's the effect of an Exarch relationship between two powers on Faerun on their relationship on the planes in general?

[Tzardok]

Exarch is a concept of 4e and therefore outside the scope of this thread. Don't ask again or Afroakuma shall smite you.

[afroakuma]

Exarch is a concept of 4e and therefore outside the scope of this thread. Don't ask again or Afroakuma shall smite you.

Oh it's too late. I already saw.

Because of them, I've been digging around the intrawebs, and stumbled upon the Torilian concept of suicide by black lightning

Oh did you now.

I don't know much about Faerun.

Large continent, north of Zakhara, west of Kara-Tur. Slightly across an ocean from Maztica, Katashaka, Anchôromé and Lopango.

In the context of Faerun, what are

Nope.

Maglubiyet is described as

Super nope.

I'm going to summarize the answers to this issue with one simple phrase: 4E planes fluff is relentlessly, catastrophically stupid and completely ignores all canon prior to its existence except where it sees an opportunity to bastardize. Do not bring it into my thread.

Enjoy your lightning.

[WalkingTheShade]

Enjoy your lightning.

Thank you.
I'm yet another naive victim of 4e. Why did nobody tell me, why...

[afroakuma]

Thank you.

For future reference, the FR wiki is a fully contaminated area. Don't bother with it.

[Jurai]

Are there Outer Planes without Planar Dragons (Battle Dragons for Ysgard, etc.) and are there any planes that lack Dragons of any stripe?

[enderlord99]

Are there Outer Planes without Planar Dragons (Battle Dragons for Ysgard, etc.) and are there any planes that lack Dragons of any stripe?

Only the Planes of Cordance if they exist and technically yes (but it really doesn't count.)

[Tzardok]

Neither Baator nor Arkadia have Planar Dragons in canon. In fanon, there is a bit of speculation about what happened to them, for example, a dragon-slaying deity in Arkadia killed them all or drove them away, while the ones of Baator has been twisted into the hellfire wyrms. The Plane of Shadow has also no planar dragons, if you don't count the shadow dragon (which can, in contrast to other planar dragons, cast spells).

[unseenmage]

So odd little niche question.

Say I use Trap the Soul or some other means to put a soul into a mundane, non-magical, non-living container.
Then I Polymorph the gem with the soul in it, or I Animate the gem with the soul in it, or I use the Gem to make a Magic Item or otherwise expend that physical component that contains the soul to make it into something else completely.

As the rules stand now souls and their fates in these situations are left entirely up to DMs. Which I'm fine with. Some fun can be had exploring the unexplored.

My question is, do the planar mechanics, the divine mechanics that deal with souls and what happens when they are moved, contained, destroyed, etc. Do those divine mechanisms and/or planar mechanisms have anything to say on this? Is there a place the remains of souls go when they're destroyed/transmuted?

[WalkingTheShade]

So odd little niche question.

Had the same questions, regarding phylacteries...

[enderlord99]

Neither Baator nor Arkadia have Planar Dragons in canon. In fanon, there is a bit of speculation about what happened to them, for example, a dragon-slaying deity in Arkadia killed them all or drove them away, while the ones of Baator has been twisted into the hellfire wyrms. The Plane of Shadow has also no planar dragons, if you don't count the shadow dragon (which can, in contrast to other planar dragons, cast spells).

It seems you're right about Arcadia, but Hellfire Wyrms are the Planar Dragons of Baator. No twisting necessary, though knowing Baator, it probably happened anyway.

[Tzardok]

Hellfire wyrms aren't true dragons, as they have no age categories. Therefor, they are no planar dragons, as those are a subcategory of true dragon. That's what I'm sticking to.

[enderlord99]

Hellfire wyrms aren't true dragons, as they have no age categories. Therefor, they are no planar dragons, as those are a subcategory of true dragon. That's what I'm sticking to.

I didn't realize they didn't have age categories...

[afroakuma]

So odd little niche question.

Say I use Trap the Soul or some other means to put a soul into a mundane, non-magical, non-living container.

Container's going to be awfully magical if detect magic checks up on it, being the active focus of a permanent spell...

Then I wreck it somehow

Wrecking the gem ends the spell and releases the trapped individual. I should point out that depending on exactly what one is doing with the gem in question, adding it to a magical item may not, in fact, constitute wrecking said gem.

My question is, do the planar mechanics, the divine mechanics that deal with souls and what happens when they are moved, contained, destroyed, etc. Do those divine mechanisms and/or planar mechanisms have anything to say on this?

Because WotC is an intelligent and forward-thinking company that clearly thinks out all of the ramifications of its not at all slapdash metaphysics.

If a soul is confined, it must be released from that confinement in some fashion to go anywhere. If its confines are destroyed, in most cases and with most binding effects the soul is free to go. I'm sure there are effects that would let one destroy a soul by destroying its confines; this is a fantastically evil act. A destroyed soul does not "go" anywhere, it does not go to pieces, it ceases to be. Eternally. It is oblivion. And it is far, far harder to accomplish than using polymorph any object to turn a soul sapphire into a mound of chalk dust.

Had the same questions, regarding phylacteries...

A phylactery is a magical item and cannot be altered using polymorph any object. It can in theory be integrated into a more interesting item, which is probably not tremendously clever if your enemies know where your friends' bank accounts are and have a ready supply of basilisk fangs, enchanted swords or hellfire kicking about.

[enderlord99]

What happens when someone tries the "flesh-to-stone -> stone-to-mud -> purify-water" combo?

[ShurikVch]

Petitioners:

Planar Commitment
Petitioners cannot leave the plane they inhabit. They are teleported one hundred miles in a random direction if an attempt is made to force them to leave.

But what if someone use Trap the Soul on a petitioner, then carry the gem to another plane?

[enderlord99]

Petitioners:But what if someone use Trap the Soul on a petitioner, then carry the gem to another plane?

Spell doesn't work, then N/A.

Alternatively, the gem is teleported. But I think it's the first one.

[Dalmosh]

On the subject of Assassin Guild patrons... there's also the Demon Lord Nocticula

Why do Baernoloths look like goats?

What happens when you cast a rope trick inside a rope trick?

What are the divine realms of Chemosh and Hiddukel like?

[Naanomi]

It's been discussed several times how particularly strong individuals shouldn't really go to Sigil, even if they lack Divine Rank, or risk the negative attention of the Lady. I realize there is no 'hard and fast' rule about this but could you give an estimate on how strong is 'too strong' under these circumstances (expressed in approximate level, HD, CR, or some such) to safely visit Sigil?

~Epic level 'normal' caster (or manifester, martial adept, etc) who flaunts their abilities
~Epic level 'normal' caster who conceals their abilities
~Epic level 'servant' caster (ie: cleric, warlock) who flaunts their abilities
~Epic level 'servant' casters who conceals their abilities
~Epic level 'forbidden/dangerous' caster (ie: binder, chronomancer, necrocarnate) who flaunts their abilities
~Epic level 'forbidden/dangerous' caster who conceals their abilities
~Epic level mundane character who flaunts their abilities
~Epic level mundane character who conceals their abilities
~Epic level character with no single class in epic levels (ie: fighter 20/rogue 20/wizard 20)
~Epic level monster of a type inherently that powerful (ie: LeShay, Force Dragon) who flaunts their nature
~Epic level monster who conceals their nature
~Extremely Large beings (ie: murderoids)

Also in an almost entirely unrelated question, can a chronomancer access the temporal prime in Sigil?

[afroakuma]

What happens when someone tries the "flesh-to-stone -> stone-to-mud -> purify-water" combo?

I would expect that to be the same, functionally, as disintegrating someone, meaning it causes death and off you go.

Petitioners:But what if someone use Trap the Soul on a petitioner, then carry the gem to another plane?

Up to your DM. Spell will likely work, but the soul might, for instance, cause the gem to shatter if an attempt is made to force it off-plane, ending the spell.

Why do Baernoloths look like goats?

Why do goats look like baernaloths?

What happens when you cast a rope trick inside a rope trick?

Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one.

You have been warned.

What are the divine realms of Chemosh and Hiddukel like?

No canon information is available on either Lifebane or The Broken Scale.

It's been discussed several times how particularly strong individuals shouldn't really go to Sigil, even if they lack Divine Rank, or risk the negative attention of the Lady. I realize there is no 'hard and fast' rule about this but could you give an estimate on how strong is 'too strong' under these circumstances (expressed in approximate level, HD, CR, or some such) to safely visit Sigil?

No.

It's very simple - would this being's presence conceivably risk more chaos in and damage to the city than, say, a balor keeping its temper in check? Then it's probably not welcome. If it's too strong, too close to becoming a deity, too large to accommodate (no tarrasques or great wyrms, please) etc. then it won't be welcome. Mind you, in the latter circumstance it's most unlikely they'd get through a portal in the first place...

Also in an almost entirely unrelated question, can a chronomancer access the temporal prime in Sigil?

Chronomancers are extremely unwelcome in Sigil. Making any attempt to access Temporal Prime from there will draw the Lady's attention and ire immediately.

[WalkingTheShade]

Why do goats look like baernaloths?

Do you mean to imply goats are *ahem* somehow descended from baernaloths?
After Yugoloths and Gehreleths, are goats the third fiendish race created by baernaloths?
My whole conspiracy theory makes a lot more sense, now. It explains everything, including the dietary habits of goats and why they look at you with such an evil stare that seems to suck your soul... because IT ACTUALLY DOES SO! The heresy of goat milk!
We have to organize a new crusade against the horned harbingers or Evil!

To stay on the philactery topic. One of my current plot-hooks has to do with a phylactery hidden in a dungeon on a demi-plane. For story reasons, the lich who created the phylactery (a simple black box containing bones, hairs, skin and an enchanted parchment) put "more" of his persona into it than necessary. After centuries, the philactery has acquired low intelligence and sentience and can manifest psionic powers. It has managed to create around itself an astral-construct-like body that it uses to walk around in its de facto jail.
Any glaring setting induced plot holes here?

[afroakuma]

To stay on the philactery topic. One of my current plot-hooks has to do with a phylactery hidden in a dungeon on a demi-plane. For story reasons, the lich who created the phylactery (a simple black box containing bones, hairs, skin and an enchanted parchment) put "more" of his persona into it than necessary. After centuries, the philactery has acquired low intelligence and sentience and can manifest psionic powers. It has managed to create around itself an astral-construct-like body that it uses to walk around in its de facto jail.
Any glaring setting induced plot holes here?

It's not tremendously likely that it would become capable of manifesting psionic powers.

[tzar1990]

How human, mentally, are Angels and other exemplars of Good?

I've seen some arguments that they're basically "nice people with fewer needs" - that while they may no longer be swayed by physical needs or desires, they basically understand you. They want you to do more good, to be better, but within the limits of your mortal body and mind.

I've also seen people arguing that they are, or should be, inhuman - that their lack of desire and sin makes them fundamentally alien. They feel you should be doing as much good as physically possible, and don't get things like "people need breaks and time to relax" or "People can't help caring about their immediate friends and family more than distant strangers." As such, they are perpetually disappointed with even relatively devout servants, and their forgiveness comes from the idea that "good forgives", not any actual understanding or excusing of mortal flaws.

[Beriorn]

Why would Boccob, a god of magic, build his tower on the Outlands? Isn't one of the major traits of the Outlands that it stops spells from being cast? Or is the greater deity Boccob not covered by this because he's more than 100 or so miles away from the Sprie? But wouldn't this affect the casting of his followers? Or does he live up to his sobriquet of The Uncaring in this case?

Oh, and I read somewhere that it takes about half to two and a half weeks to get from anywhere to anywhere in the Outlands: from gatetown to gatetown, from circle to circle and so on. Half a week is about 3 days. Two and a half weeks is about 18. 3 to 18 days. So it takes 3d6 days to get anywhere in the Outlands.