afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VI

[JoeyTheNeko]

Oh almighty and powerful Afroakuma i beseech thy attention:

I remember an old planescape adventure that regarded the lady of pain: in it 2 people wanted the lady's attention/whatever , since i don't remember anything more of the initial middle part i'll skip to the ending: 2 paths were available 1) the evil npc became a demigod of slaughter )2 the good pc became a demigod of bardic whatever whon sang the praises of the lady.

Does anyone remember the adventure and it's plot more accurately than me?

well to me that doesn't sound like something a planescape adventure would do, but I would be hilariously amused if it was in fact a canon one. planescape is meant to be silly.

how much independence do modrons have to do their tasks afro? from monodrones to secundus, what's the level of individuality of each modron rank under primus's command? between non-sentient and completely mindless, animal intelligence, normal persons ability to make decisions, to complete independence aside from following the chain of command?

do you know any canon dead-magic demi-planes in the great wheel? aside from the demi-plane of imprisonment, that is.

[Eldan]

That's Harbinger House. It's really not that important a part of the plot, though. It's mostly about a series of murders and people trying to screw with the rules of Sigil.

The longer version is this:

Spoiler

Show

The Godsmen faction thinks they have identified a group of people with the divine spark, who might ascend to godhood. Sadly, all of them also seem unable to quite cope with the strain and have gone quite insane.
Luckily, there is a building in Sigil, the titular Harbinger House, which has a fascinating effect upon it: the lady can not perceive the house or what happens in it. So the Godsmen are using it as an asylum for mad godlings, all of which have strange magical powers.

Years ago, one of those godlings, a man named Sougad, went on a brutal ritualistic murder spree which he thought would make him ascend. Now, someone has broken him out of Harbinger House and he is resuming his deeds. It seems that someone is trying to have a god ascend inside Sigil, perhaps to remove the Lady of pain. In the confusion, another Godling escaped too, and he is indeed in love with the lady and trying to start a cult of that nature.
The PCs most likely come in trying to solve the murder series, maybe in the name of one of the factions involved. They will have to stop Sougad while his powers grow with every murder, then chase him outside of Sigil, across several outer planes and back to Sigil, before he finishes the 13th murder inside Harbinger House.

There's a bit more involved than that, like the question who broke Sougad out in the first place. (It was one of two warring abyssal factions, one of which is also trying to pull the house into the Abyss, to control a piece of Sigil.)

[Smorgonoffz]

@Eldan: you're not Afroakuma but thanks for the answer.

[JoeyTheNeko]

@Eldan: you're not Afroakuma but thanks for the answer.

as afro has said before.

sometimes the thread runs itself and he can just watch on cruise control.

how would one describe arcadia, the way one describes archeon and carceri?

how would one describe Mechnus, in the same way?

[Lord_Gareth]

how would one describe arcadia, the way one describes archeon and carceri?

I hear the summons, mortal creature.

The Peaceable Kingdoms of Arcadia are places of harmony. The land is green and pleasant, and provides freely of its bounty; no one has to war or fight to survive on Arcadia (which is not to say that there are no wars, with pleasant armies arrayed in accordance to rules of valor and politeness, waged upon one another without disturbing their friends and neighbors). Society in Arcadia is defined by absolute, but voluntary, obedience to the law. These laws, however, are of a benevolent nature, creating a relationship where there are good-aligned laws being slavishly obeyed by mostly lawful beings. Natives of Arcadia place the law above all other obligations, but the laws to which they swear and for which they live are founded for the common good and obeyed by all, with punishments being few and far between as for most such beings the very idea of breaking the law is wholly alien. Arcadia has power without corruption, obedience without intimidation, plenty without hardship, peace without threat, but very often the beings native to it do not understand these things; they comprehend that they are sworn wholly to a cause that is just and good, without really getting why. It creates...difficulties, at times.

After all, look at what happened to the formians.

[WalkingTheShade]

I hear the summons, mortal creature.

Next question: how does one summon Lord_Gareth? Admit it, you keep lurking these threads just for one of these moments...

[JoeyTheNeko]

Next question: how does one summon Lord_Gareth? Admit it, you keep lurking these threads just for one of these moments...

pretty sure my post shows how to do so.

and gareths reply was wonderful, as expected.

how would one describe limbo, Elysium, mechanus and the grey waste of hades in that way?

[afroakuma]

Next question: how does one summon Lord_Gareth? Admit it, you keep lurking these threads just for one of these moments...

I shout. Loudly. I mean, I have a summoning circle, and vast quantities of summoning stones linked meticulously to a matrix... but I just shout at him until he shows up.

[Jurai]

What relation does Arcane magic have to Divine magic, seeing as both are equally blocked by the Outlands and Sigil? Or is taht a question beyond the scope of this thread?

[JoeyTheNeko]

so, epic spells, according to the SRD, are built using seeds of true magic.

where is a fluff explanation for these seeds, how they came to be, what one may look like, etc? cuz the SRD gives no details on examples of how one is to obtain these things to create epic magic.

unless the explanation is epic casters have epic gardening skills, too.

[Tzardok]

Those seeds are no objects, they are just the rule's way to codify the creation of epic spells. You can imagine them as basic spells that are combined and modified to create the final spell. Seriously, I thought that was obvious. How in the Nine Hells did anyone ever think those seeds were actual objects?

[enderlord99]

Those seeds are no objects, they are just the rule's way to codify the creation of epic spells. You can imagine them as basic spells that are combined and modified to create the final spell.

Indeed.

Seriously, I thought that was obvious.

So did I...

How in the Nine Hells did anyone ever think those seeds were actual objects?

I have no idea.

[WalkingTheShade]

Indeed.So did I...I have no idea.

Is it dog-piling day already? Nobody told me as usual.
Now, the questioner explicitly referred to the SRD and unless one methodically reads every page concerning epic spells, it is possible to forgo some details.
That's the problem with a web site: it's easy to jump directly to the fun part, specific spell descriptions, without actually reading the boring part about how they work in general.
This forum is full of questions that can be clarified by an attentive reading of the SRD, and even then, not every one remembers every point of rule. Especially rules that aren't used that often, like those of epic spells.
I, for one, can never remember the exact rules for grapple...

[Laurellien]

Are there coterminous regions between the Plane of Shadow and the Material Plane where one might accidentally cross from the Material Plane?
If so, how would you notice the change? Would everything suddenly turn black-and-white?

[afroakuma]

how would one describe limbo, Elysium, mechanus and the grey waste of hades in that way?

Just to spare some time and poor Gareth's dwindling sanity, I'm going to just jump to the logical endpoint of all of this.

The Abyss is the plane of abandon - nothing is restricted, no behavior encouraged or denied, all desires are dialed to their most wanton. The result: a grotesque melange of nightmares and mad dreams, sprung to life across hundreds of layers shaped around the whims of massive, unrestrained and tremendously vile egos. A realm of hedonism and terror that allows and expects the very worst out of its festering horde of natives, the Abyss is peopled by those desperate for the release it promises, the power to destroy and therefore unleash such desires as have been denied you. The lust for destruction and repudiation of order and structure manifest physically in the form of vast chasms that penetrate through the layers of the Abyss and the strange, inconsistent horrorscapes that exist deep therein.

Acheron is the plane of devaluation - all things are insignificant, valueless and incapable of escaping their place in the cosmic order. The peoples of Acheron live lives of terrible futility, participating in wars that will never end for honors that will never be accorded; struggling to survive for the right to live another day in a frozen and deadly hellscape; picking their way across a cosmic junkyard in the hope of finding some small scrap of worth before becoming part of the landscape themselves. This is not a plane without hope - rather, it is a plane where desire comes to die, a plane where the personal gives way to the faceless and meaning can only be found in holding some form of authority to differentiate oneself from others.

Arborea is the plane of inspiration - awash in passion, tranquility, history and festivity, Arborea's three layers are tremendously unlike one another, yet unified by the emotions they stir in travelers. The peoples of Arborea take life in both hands, desirous of joy, purpose and the freedom to marry the two. Below the familiar pastoral splendor of the uppermost layer lie the wild seas of Ossa and the myriad realms and cities that await in chasms below the shallows, followed by the mysterious sorrows of Pelion, land of white sands.

Arcadia is the plane of perfection - everything there needs to be right, because right means good. A militant plane by nature, particularly across the second layer, Arcadia is populated by peoples who have their own understanding of Right and are willing to put steel behind their definitions. Moreso than other Upper Planes, Arcadia's denizens are obsessed with purity, to the detriment of visitors who do not conform to the Arcadian notion of what is or is not desirable. As such, while Arcadia is largely placid and pastoral, it brooks no middle ground and is largely uninclusive. Its antithesis is Pandemonium.

Baator is the plane of coercion - all will be surrendered when the right button is pushed, even the self. A place of fantastical cruelty and subjugation, the peoples of Baator live out their existence fully cognizant of their place in the structure and the reasons they have been forced into it. The plane and its denizens thrive on the capitulation of others, the foundation of their twisted but absolute version of authority. Whether one desires it or not, a place does exist for all somewhere in the Nine Hells - typically under a devil's taloned heel. To get ahead is to understand the rules and how to apply them like the twisting of thumbscrews. To gain authority, power or prestige is to discover a different, more impressive boot atop one's back - for in the infernal hierarchy, no one escapes the crushing weight that is the will of the Lord Below.

The Beastlands is the plane of instinct - a place is there for all things that simply wish to live in tune with their natures, provided those natures are in balance with those of other beings. A plane largely bereft of anything that might be called "civilization," the Beastlands is the realm of the most primal exultation, and its peoples are one with the land and its true heirs, the animals. Those who try to oppose the essential nature of the plane will find themselves swept away, if they do not become prey first.

Bytopia is the plane of endeavor - a thing isn't worth doing unless it's worth working at. A plane of two natures, Bytopia is united around the ideal of personal commitment and effort, whether one is working for one's supper on Dothion or enduring the cold winds of Shurrock to hunt for game. Pride, not in oneself but in one's accomplishments and value to a greater community, characterizes the peoples of Bytopia. Welcome and shelter are available for any who are willing to earn or pay for it.

Carceri is the plane of contempt - the total distrust of and disregard for others and even the self. The peoples of Carceri are self-devouring, proponents of applying Tall Poppy Syndrome to every facet of their miserable, suspicious and paranoid lives. The other is denigrated and calumnized, for who would reside in Carceri except those who were cast out from elsewhere? Called the Red Prison for good reason, the very nature of the plane is one of harshness, isolation, division and futility.

Celestia is the plane of aspiration - there is a desire innate to the plane itself that those who come there seek self-improvement, enlightenment and a way to participate in the fullness of order and the greatness of good. The structure of the plane reinforces this concept, with the higher heavens serving as waystations on the road to self-actualization and absolution. The peoples of Celestia are strong believers in the power of good in all its forms as a force against evil and chaos, and are wholly convinced of the virtue of their plane and their moral stance.

Elysium is the plane of succor - help, hope and welcome are always available, even in the thickest fog and the darkest night. Its people are known for great joy and contentment, and indeed the plane is so pervasively winsome that it can be toxic and even fatal to those without the will to keep themselves separate from the temptations of paradise. While only the topmost layer is pastoral and inviting, each layer of Elysium is characterized by peoples of good will and staunch heart ready to serve as beacons against despair and bastions of empathy.

Gehenna is the plane of esurience - a terrible, grasping, gnawing need to claw one's way toward something approximating the top of the heap, at the expense of anyone who dares to have more than you. The peoples of Gehenna scrape out an existence on a plane with limited land mass available and all of it insistent on sloping toward an endless void, forever toppling those who think they've attained some measure of safety. Civilization exists because it has to - unity is strength, and numbers mean there will exist someone whose neck you can stand on to get ahead - but Gehenna is characterized by a pure and practically codified pair of understandings - that greed is all, and that the top of the pile is no safe place to be when your world is a volcano.

Hades is the plane of despair - nothing about the plane sparks even a mote of hope in those who dare travel there. Hades is pervasive, all-devouring hopelessness, three glooms filled with the toxic miasma of evil at its nadir. Pure. Terrible. Completely bare and unreserved. Evil on Hades is not dressed up or given flesh and ambition; it is capable of sucking the very life and will out of the people who enter the gloom, filling them with deadly sickness, or inspiring such tremendous emotions of grief and futility that its visitors and victims take their own lives rather than face the brutal and naked truth of this monolith of utter despair.

Limbo is the plane of idiosyncrasy - a totally unique experience not just of the self but for the self. The plane of Limbo is, by definition, what one makes it to be, subject to one's capacity to do so. It begs for ingenuity and the will to force a tiny piece of the multiverse to conform to your preferences, rather than the other way around. The peoples of Limbo are seemingly few in number, but all desire, or have found, some measure of personal freedom of a kind that simply cannot be experienced elsewhere. By its very nature Limbo demands the personal wherewithal to endure its essence and seize the day.

Mechanus is the plane of objective - there is a real, salient and true purpose for all things, or they do not matter. The plane of ultimate order has only one layer, for any possible permutations of the essence of Mechanus must surely be able to fit within the larger mold. The peoples of Mechanus tend toward lives of tremendous peace, for the necessity of function is ingrained in them and deviation is at odds with the way they desire to be. The strange beauty of Mechanus is a reflection of cosmic understandings that order need not mean straight lines and perfect symmetry; however, anyone who visits will certainly note the alien stability and immutability of Mechanus cultures.

The Outlands is the plane of choice - it is impossible to stand at the very center of balance, so by definition anywhere you go is closer to something. Unusual among all the planes, the infinity of the Outlands seems somehow compromised by the nature of its Hinterlands; however, there is still a radial infinity that accommodates the many deities who have chosen to establish their realms within the relative neutrality offered by the plane. The peoples of the Outlands run the gamut, each holding on due to some commitment to the principles of cosmic balance... or maybe just retaining the right to walk away and make a different decision. The Outlands has sixteen famous paths to the rest of the Outer Planes, but in its heartlands is the singular spoke around which the Great Wheel revolves.

Pandemonium is the plane of fear - there is nothing but the screaming terror of the winds and the dreadful claustrophobia of the tunnels, there in the darkness, waiting for all. A place of madness. Anxiety. Dread. Pandemonium's peoples have been eroded by the shrieking gale, abraded by the vicious winds and the insanity they portend to become something tough, lean and edgy. Strangely, Pandemonium does have communities - the bizarre esprit de camp that forms between the desperate and wind-scoured souls is real and salient, born up simply by the impossibility that anyone standing next to you could do worse than the nihilistic void of the tunnels. The plane itself may be screaming in terror, somehow perceiving the limits of its own infinities and the horrible gulf beyond reality; certainly the winds must issue from somewhere, and the plane seems to collapse inward on itself as one enters the lower reaches.

Ysgard is the plane of glory - the freedom to contribute the grandiosity of one's life and deeds to the greater song of the multiverse. An oftentimes challenging plane replete with struggle, challenge and battle, Ysgard and its peoples care less for outcomes and more for the deeds and stories of a life in the process of being lived. Death has little hold on Ysgard, making combat less a lethal endeavor to conquer and subjugate and more a method to test one's mettle and fire.

What relation does Arcane magic have to Divine magic, seeing as both are equally blocked by the Outlands and Sigil? Or is taht a question beyond the scope of this thread?

I don't know that the premise of the question is germane to the question itself. Just about everything stops functioning close to the Spire - even perfectly mundane poisons.

Are there coterminous regions between the Plane of Shadow and the Material Plane where one might accidentally cross from the Material Plane?

In certain areas of deep shadow, yes.

If so, how would you notice the change? Would everything suddenly turn black-and-white?

You'd already be in an area of particular darkness, so everything would get darker, then go eigengrau, then you'd feel as though your eyes had adjusted to the darkness and you were viewing part of the Prime in an area of limited light. Whether or not you'd notice the lack of color, well, that's on you.

If you're going back the other way it's farcically easy to spot; rifts to the Prime look like massive glowy patches on the Plane of Shadow, a rather unlikely sight there.

[JoeyTheNeko]

Just to spare some time and poor Gareth's dwindling sanity, I'm going to just jump to the logical endpoint of all of this.

thank you. yes, that's basically what I was looking for. I have nothing further at present. thanks for the help.

[afroakuma]

thank you. yes, that's basically what I was looking for. I have nothing further at present. thanks for the help.

Y'wanna, maybe, not quote back the entire post? Or really any of it? That's gonna take up some serious space.

[JoeyTheNeko]

Y'wanna, maybe, not quote back the entire post? Or really any of it? That's gonna take up some serious space.

I was trying too.

I'm not to familiar with how these forums does that. ^^; white text, bold, quoting, still not fully aware how to do it all.

edited it. that should be better.

[enderlord99]

I was trying too.

I'm not to familiar with how these forums does that. ^^; white text, bold, quoting, still not fully aware how to do it all.

edited it. that should be better.

Somewhat, but now it's missing a "[/QUOTE]" at the end of the relevant portion.

Don't quote this post at all; the formatting would be messed up right from the start if you do.

[WalkingTheShade]

Somewhat, but now it's missing a "[⁄QUOTE]" at the end of the relevant portion.

Don't quote this post at all; the formatting would be messed up right from the start if you do.

Really?!

Just to spare some time and poor Gareth's dwindling sanity, I'm going to just jump to the logical endpoint of all of this.

Feedback time.
I really like what you did there. Making such sort summaries is a very difficult exercise. That shows your familiarity with, if not mastery over, the material.
I appreciate how you tried to start each plane's description with a one word concept.

Before going further, just let me precise that I do not want to debate or contradict you, but just to share my own interpretation of the material. Moreover, I'm not capable to produce such vivid descriptions for the outer planes as you do.

Notwithstanding, in my interpretation, I see Arcadia as the plane of peace, instead of perfection. Peace enforced through strict adherence to order, entailing negation of any and every kinds of conflict. Whereas the other upper planes encourage you to grow and change in some ways (through art, battle, instinct, empathy, hard work or understanding) Arcadia expects of you to stay the same, telling you that it's enough to unquestioningly both accept your place in society and internalize its laws to be good. There is no competition to better your situation, no possible reform for the laws. It's the plane of eternal immanence; thus, for some, eternal boredom. Whereas Mechanus simply ignores the notion of self, Arcadia actively negates it.

At the opposite, I see Pandemonium as the plane of alienation. The plane where one grows estranged from oneself and the others. It's the plane of isolation, where dark things are deeply buried, but could come back to the surface any time. Dig enough, and the shames and fears of even the gods can be unearthed. But if you do, the plane will forever shatter your mind through madness, or crush your body beneath tons of stones. It's not a plane where you will be betrayed, murdered or enslaved. It's a plane where you will be abandoned, forsaken, forgotten. Whereas on Acheron, you will be crushed beside your brothers in arm, facing the futility of solidarity, on Pandemonium, you will be left alone to contemplate the futility of self, until the point you either break or definitively loose who you were.

[Cirrylius]

Just to spare some time and poor Gareth's dwindling sanity, I'm going to just jump to the logical endpoint of all of this.

I once had to make this kind of infodump to a group of stoner gamers in college. Things being what they were, I described each one as being trapped inside a particular genre of movie, with all the attendant conventions and tropes becoming more or less forces of physics

Outlands: a documentary
Beastlands: the kind of animal documentary they show to eighth graders
Abyss & Pandemonium: horror movie
Celestia: Lifetime TV with a fair dollop of adventure movie
Bytopia: whatever gossipy stories the settlers of the old west told each other before they left
Ysgard: action movie, glorious war movies
Acheron: gritty depressing war movies

-the discussion mostly broke up at that point to discuss finer divisions of genre and individual movies as planes with more complicated natures, but I'd like to think I got something across to them

[afroakuma]

Notwithstanding, in my interpretation, I see Arcadia as the plane of peace

Most definitely not. Buxenus in particular is extremely militant, and the plane's denizens are perfectly willing to chuck you out living or dead if they think you're throwing off their groove. It's telling that the formians come from Arcadia, not Mechanus. Arcadia also has a great deal of conflict - it's very orderly, formal and all the niceties are observed, a sort of family-friendly version of white knights on noble steeds with banners flying and whatnot, but it's still war. The nature of the plane actually expected petitioners to transmigrate to Buxenus and then to Nemausus as they became closer to the perfection the plane desired, ultimately merging in Nemausus. The fact that said layer is no longer in the plane should speak volumes about the true nature of the place.

At the opposite, I see Pandemonium as the plane of alienation.

Now this one is very close to what I ultimately selected. I stand by my selection, but a very good case could be made for this.

[Naanomi]

What was Baator like after the ancients left but before Asmodeus moved in? It doesn't seem like the kind of place to go leaderless.

Could a cerebrotic blot survive undetected for long in the Outer Planes if the surrounding area was disastrous enough? Like a particularly alien Abyssal layer, deep in Pandemonium, or in the Hinterlands?

How would the Demiplane of Dread respond to Far Realms influence... Outsiders have bad effects there, would psudonatural types do something similar? Could the Lords of that place expel Far Planes influence (blots, powerful alienists, transplanted natives) or is it too 'different' for them to influence so directly as they normally can?

[JoeyTheNeko]

What was Baator like after the ancients left but before Asmodeus moved in? It doesn't seem like the kind of place to go leaderless.

I think the answer to that is "information not available."

[enderlord99]

Where on the planes would this (or something like it) be most likely to happen?

[afroakuma]

What was Baator like after the ancients left but before Asmodeus moved in? It doesn't seem like the kind of place to go leaderless.

We don't know, of course. We don't know that is was "leaderless."

Could a cerebrotic blot

No.

Why are we back to doing "how would the Far Realm react if mixed with this random thing" again? Stop doing this.

A cerebrotic blot will not survive in the Outer Planes. The end.

Where on the planes would this (or something like it) be most likely to happen?

Ravenloft.

[Naanomi]

*tries to find a question not on my 'always annoys Afroakuma' list*

Can you conceptually explain the Hinterlands to me? I've never understood how it fit in the outer planes as an aspect of Neutrality

[Judge_Worm]

What powers hang out on the Negative and Positive material planes? What happens to their petitioners on these planes?

Feel free to take all the time in the world on this one.

How many layers of the Abyss have been enumerated? What are they (not asking for a description, just a number and a name)?

[atemu1234]

*tries to find a question not on my 'always annoys Afroakuma' list*

Can you conceptually explain the Hinterlands to me? I've never understood how it fit in the outer planes as an aspect of Neutrality

This reminds me...

Afroakuma, what kinds of questions make you angry? Like, a list of things I can check against. (If this question makes you angry, I apologize, but I'm doing this for [hopefully] the greater good neutral)

[enderlord99]

Afroakuma, what kinds of questions make you angry?

I'm going to hazard a somewhat educated guess that it's:

1. Anything you ask
2. Anything I ask
3. Anything someone else asks
4. Anything that isn't asked at all