afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VI

[Brookshw]

You do indeed. I do wonder, though, if the format of keeping the questions in is helpful. I'd like thoughts on that. I'd be more than happy, when a particular page is more complete, to go through and attempt to compile it into a stable article. Also I do recommend a page be set aside and links put in to notate "afro-canon," given how frequently it might come up.

Hmmm. Good question. Eldan should proabably field the format as I'm not especially familiar with this sort of thing. I assume we could do the Topic itself, comments on it, questions at the end, but that might get sort of tricky. We should probably take this to PMs to sort out the details. Fair point on an Afro-canon tag or some such.

[Eldan]

I guess we can do that later. For now, I'm just trying to move tons and tons of material over, a lot of which has very screwed up formatting when copy-pasting. Also, category pages and indices.

If I ever get done with that, I can write a few introductory lines to each subject. E.g. "The Blood War is the multiverse's largest war, between the lawful Baatezu, or Devils, and the chaotic Tanar'ri, or Demons, which has been fought across all the lower planes for millennia."

[afroakuma]

I guess we can do that later. For now, I'm just trying to move tons and tons of material over, a lot of which has very screwed up formatting when copy-pasting. Also, category pages and indices.

If I ever get done with that, I can write a few introductory lines to each subject. E.g. "The Blood War is the multiverse's largest war, between the lawful Baatezu, or Devils, and the chaotic Tanar'ri, or Demons, which has been fought across all the lower planes for millennia."

As I said, I'd be more than happy, for any given page, to write a clean brief and then polish any added info.

[WalkingTheShade]

Yay for new thread!

First of all, good luck with the wiki thing. I'd help, if only I had more free time.

Second, more questions:

I have a chaotic neutral planar ice genasi revolutionnary league fighter/cleric NPC (pfew, that's a mouthful). I'm looking for a fitting patron power with the cold domain. I've found Thelchur and Vatun. Any other suggestions?

What's your opinion of Zarus? Without going into the whole Burning Hate conspiracy thing, what are his relations to other non-racial deities like? What about the seemingly overlaping concerns with Wastri?

EDIT: regarding the list of planar information brokers, I stumbled upon the Master of Bones, host of the Bones of the Night, the other day.

[enderlord99]

I like to think that "Chole Dragons" (the planar dragon associated with the Abyss) are all part secretly Draeden. How likely is this, on a scale of -10 to +10, where -10 is "that's the dumbest idea I've ever heard," 0 is "it's not stupid, but it's still 100% false," +1 is "it might sort of be an extremely remote possibility, I guess. The chance is negligible, though" and +10 is "they absolutely are. It's confirmed as canon."

I expect less than 3, but I really have no idea.

[DCDC420]

When exactly did the genies first show up? I can't find anything that really discusses their history in-depth, and as far as I can tell they've just always been there on the Inner Planes.

Did they take part in the War of Law and Chaos? If it helps, I'm most interested in the Marids specifically.

[Brookshw]

What inspired these threads aside from boredom?

As to the Genie question if you could recommend any sources for their actions at the beginning of the law/chaos war I'm looking for more reading material

[Fable Wright]

What could cause a Demon to turn Neutral Evil? Planescape: Torment establishes that demons can go all the way up to Lawful Neutral without becoming something different, and that torture by Baatezu can bring about a leaning towards law, but I'm curious as to what other kinds of circumstances might bring Demons away from the Chaotic Evil alignment.

[afroakuma]

I have a chaotic neutral planar ice genasi revolutionnary league fighter/cleric NPC (pfew, that's a mouthful). I'm looking for a fitting patron power with the cold domain. I've found Thelchur and Vatun. Any other suggestions?

The Cold domain isn't assigned to deities outside of Complete Divine and Frostburn, the latter of which I know you've looked at. If your DM is open to some leeway on it, you might also consider the Norse god Uller, who should have the Cold domain, given that he's the god of winter. Thrym, the god of the frost giants, might be an option. On the other side of the moral spectrum, you could ask your DM to allow you to puzzle out Kura Okami of the Japanese pantheon, a deity of rain and snow.

What's your opinion of Zarus?

The word "butts" comes to mind.

what are his relations to other non-racial deities like?

See terrible book Races of Destiny terrible book. I was right the first time.

What about the seemingly overlaping concerns with Wastri?

Wastri is a weak, delusional power who upholds anti-human bigotry as one of the core elements of his portfolio, but who doesn't understand what "humans" are, seizing actual humans and warping them into a mildly froggy state. He's stunted, hideous and endorses the enslavement of nonhuman races - but only those who are also demonstrably weak, despised, and generally considered unappealing. Unlike Wastri, who wants to spread a message of hate for nonhumans and power for humans, Zarus wants to conquer. He seeks perfection and the apex of the human existence.

I like to think that "Chole Dragons" (the planar dragon associated with the Abyss) are all part secretly Draeden. How likely is this, on a scale of -10 to +10, where -10 is "that's the dumbest idea I've ever heard," 0 is "it's not stupid, but it's still 100% false," +1 is "it might sort of be an extremely remote possibility, I guess. The chance is negligible, though" and +10 is "they absolutely are. It's confirmed as canon."

I'll give you a -2.

When exactly did the genies first show up?

We do not know. The only book that dwells on them doesn't delve into history.

Did they take part in the War of Law and Chaos? If it helps, I'm most interested in the Marids specifically.

I would expect they were involved well before the end.

[DCDC420]

Thank you for the answer, though I do have another question.

Did someone go overboard when writing the Oeridian god Cyndor? He is a lesser power of time who has no three divine realms, one of which was the city of Rempha (previously established to be under the control of a solar and a rogue modron), and one of which is in the Demiplane of Time (also known as the impossible-to-build-in Temporal Prime). He also happens to direct Oerth's branch of the Guardians from Chronomancer, which is a little much.

How is all of this possible for a relatively obscure lesser deity? I am considering taking him out of the picture for a game that involves time manipulation and time travel, by saying that his focus on predestination caused him to hubristically aim for preincarnate souls and hit the Ban of the Unborn just as Desayeus did...

EDIT:

I have another question, this one also delving back into the ancient past.

Regardless of where their empire was or where they currently reside, did the species of the Wind Dukes of Aaqa, also known as the vaati, originate from the Prime or from the Inner Planes?

[WalkingTheShade]

Thanks for your answers.

I have a few questions regarding the Rabble of Devilkin.

Of them, who is the most likely strike a bargain to help (overtly or not) planewalkers cross the realm of Tiamat, from Avernus to Dis, in the context of the Fires of Dis adventure?
Who is the most likely to do this to gain something from the adventurers?
Who is the most likely to do this to piss off Tiamat?
Who is the most likely to do this to gain something from Dispater, being actually controlled/manipulated by him?
Who is the most likely to do this for the lulz? (I'd say Cahor.)

On subject of Cahor, using the enderlord99 Scale of Conjecture Compatibility with Canon (eSCCC), what's the believability of Cahor being NE or CE?

Of the Rabble, who is the most likely to be a double agent, working for Asmodeus, and meant to spy on the others or undermine their plans? (I'd say Cahor again, don't know why, I'm fond of the guy.)

Of the Rabble, who are the ones with the biggest potential for a come-back tour in Hell?

[afroakuma]

What inspired these threads aside from boredom?

I no longer know.

As to the Genie question if you could recommend any sources for their actions at the beginning of the law/chaos war I'm looking for more reading material

I'm starting to feel like I might have to go invent genie canon for people.

What could cause a Demon to turn Neutral Evil?

Anything that might pull them away from chaos - increased devotion to evil for its own sake, for instance.

Did someone go overboard when writing the Oeridian god Cyndor?

Yes. Stupid Polyhedron. If I have to consult a Polyhedron issue for an answer, you know we're in the red zone.

He is a lesser power of time who has no three divine realms

He really doesn't. The article itself makes no mention of Rempha, whose own entry in the canon doesn't mention Cyndor at all, because he has not a thing to do with it. Given Cyndor's role with relation to time and how dangerous any form of interference on Temporal Prime can be, I find it unlikely that an author who had actually read Chronomancer properly would have given him a berth of any kind there, let alone suggested it was his realm - Temporal Prime is not a plane, after all. That leaves one, The Path of Law on Mechanus.

How is all of this possible for a relatively obscure lesser deity? I am considering taking him out of the picture for a game that involves time manipulation and time travel, by saying that his focus on predestination caused him to hubristically aim for preincarnate souls and hit the Ban of the Unborn just as Desayeus did...

That doesn't sound like Cyndor. Remember, though, time manipulation is a dangerous, dangerous thing. Time travel not as much so provided you're cautious and not out to, you know, manipulate time.

Regardless of where their empire was or where they currently reside, did the species of the Wind Dukes of Aaqa, also known as the vaati, originate from the Prime or from the Inner Planes?

Inner Planes. They retreated to the Vale of Aaqa at the end of the war.

I have a few questions regarding the Rabble of Devilkin.

Hm, that's a new topic. Fun.

Of them, who is the most likely strike a bargain to help (overtly or not) planewalkers cross the realm of Tiamat, from Avernus to Dis, in the context of the Fires of Dis adventure?

Well, the least likely would be Armaros; Azazel would probably be most likely, followed by Cahor. Dagon would claim willingness to help, but invariably betray intruders for his own ends. Rumjal would be the best in terms of access, but is not likely to cooperate.

Who is the most likely to do this to gain something from the adventurers?

Dagon, but of course see above. Caim might, if they had valuable enough info to trade and he could trust them.

Who is the most likely to do this to piss off Tiamat?

Azazel.

Who is the most likely to do this to gain something from Dispater, being actually controlled/manipulated by him?

Dispater is most likely to manipulate Dagon in this respect; most of the others have nothing he could offer them. Herodias might be persuaded.

Who is the most likely to do this for the lulz? (I'd say Cahor.)

Azazel or Cahor.

On subject of Cahor, using the enderlord99 Scale of Conjecture Compatibility with Canon (eSCCC), what's the believability of Cahor being NE or CE?

-8.

Of the Rabble, who is the most likely to be a double agent, working for Asmodeus, and meant to spy on the others or undermine their plans? (I'd say Cahor again, don't know why, I'm fond of the guy.)

Kochbiel or Rumjal.

Of the Rabble, who are the ones with the biggest potential for a come-back tour in Hell?

Kochbiel and Armaros are the most valuable potential assets to the archdukes; Rumjal is a friend of Asmodeus and has kept himself firmly aligned with the interests of the Lord Below. Duskur, if she were willing to accept the suit of an archduke to become consort, would reenter the hierarchy with ease. Amon would likely already have a position once more if he had not served under Geryon.

[Adslahnit]

1. What is known of the Field of Pesh, the site of the decisive battle between the vaati and the obyriths?

I cannot seem to find much information on it, besides that it is located in Oerth in the shadow of White Plume Mountain.

Is it a popular tourist destination for aficionados of planar history?

2. Are there infinite mortals in the Prime? If so, does each of the Outer Planes have infinite petitioners in it, including Gehenna and its finite-space volcanoes?

3. Could the destruction or consumption of an evil soul (particularly that of an evil outsider) be said to be a non-evil act from a grand-scale perspective of the multiverse? It would rid the Lower Planes of a new petitioner and/or a new influx of evil energies, thereby preventing the cosmic force of evil from growing.

4. Is the Japanese pantheon (specifically, the gods Izanagi and Izanami) given any lore from a D&D perspective in any sources other than Legends & Lore and On Hallowed Ground?

5. Is there anything known on the ascended factol of the Believers of the Source, Curran, mentioned in the Factol's Manifesto, other than that she is a power of healing and protection?

6. Is there anything known about the ascended factols of the Transcendent Order, also mentiond in the Factol's Manifesto, even a name or two?

7. I cannot seem to find this particular detail mentioned in the previous questions and answers on Baalphegor: Is Mephistopheles aware that Asmodeus tolerates him only because of Baalphegor's power and leverage, or is Mephistopheles in the dark with regards to his own consort?

8. If someone (say, a group of very dedicated baatezu) managed to trick several nations' worth of mortals into worshiping a minor tanar'ri lord as a benevolent, Lawful Good deity, could the power of mortal belief effectively "poison" that tanar'ri lord with all the energies of Law and Good flowing back and forth?

9. Can exemplars become true gods, as opposed to just exemplar lords?

[afroakuma]

1. What is known of the Field of Pesh, the site of the decisive battle between the vaati and the obyriths?

I cannot seem to find much information on it, besides that it is located in Oerth in the shadow of White Plume Mountain.

That's basically it.

Is it a popular tourist destination for aficionados of planar history?

I would doubt it, being that it's on the Prime.

2. Are there infinite mortals in the Prime?

One would expect so.

If so, does each of the Outer Planes have infinite petitioners in it, including Gehenna and its finite-space volcanoes?

Gehenna's volcanoes are only relatively finite. I addressed this very recently. No Inner, Outer or Transitive Plane will ever "fill up" or otherwise overcrowd. A demiplane might. As far as we know, there are in fact infinite petitioners on the Outer Planes.

3. Could the destruction or consumption of an evil soul (particularly that of an evil outsider) be said to be a non-evil act from a grand-scale perspective of the multiverse? It would rid the Lower Planes of a new petitioner and/or a new influx of evil energies, thereby preventing the cosmic force of evil from growing.

As redemption is possible, albeit unlikely, soul destruction is an evil act. Remember too that the Outer Planes have their balances; the Unity of Rings, the Rule of Three; judging against evil souls might in and of itself be a greater evil in the long run for the damage that can be wrought.

4. Is the Japanese pantheon (specifically, the gods Izanagi and Izanami) given any lore from a D&D perspective in any sources other than Legends & Lore and On Hallowed Ground?

The original Deities & Demigods. The Japanese pantheon was considered a reclusive pantheon and not given much focus even at the best of times.

5. Is there anything known on the ascended factol of the Believers of the Source, Curran, mentioned in the Factol's Manifesto, other than that she is a power of healing and protection?

Nope.

6. Is there anything known about the ascended factols of the Transcendent Order, also mentiond in the Factol's Manifesto, even a name or two?

That would be the source for it, if it existed to be found.

7. I cannot seem to find this particular detail mentioned in the previous questions and answers on Baalphegor: Is Mephistopheles aware that Asmodeus tolerates him only because of Baalphegor's power and leverage, or is Mephistopheles in the dark with regards to his own consort?

He's got notions of her power, but he's also devoted to the idea that he can someday overwhelm Asmodeus under his own strength.

8. If someone (say, a group of very dedicated baatezu) managed to trick several nations' worth of mortals into worshiping a minor tanar'ri lord as a benevolent, Lawful Good deity, could the power of mortal belief effectively "poison" that tanar'ri lord with all the energies of Law and Good flowing back and forth?

Who knows? A lawful good power in that sphere might step in, or their belief might create a separate being... but it would be fun to find out.

9. Can exemplars become true gods, as opposed to just exemplar lords?

I'm not sure I'm clear on the question. Are you asking if an exemplar can become a god without previously having been an exemplar lord?

[Tzardok]

9. Can exemplars become true gods, as opposed to just exemplar lords?

IIRC, Gargauth in the Faerûnian pantheon is an ascended baatezu. He calls himself in his hybris "The Tenth of the Nine" and says that he was too vile even for Asmodeus and was kicked out of Hell for that.

[DCDC420]

According to Skip Williams in Dragon Magazine...

The Wind Dukes of Aaqa, or Vaati, as they call themselves, have a presence in both products. They are a proud and noble race of immortals, though their struggles against Chaos have weakened them. The are masters of the element of air. They are androgynous and seldom find need for clothes. A prudish mortal brazen enough to chide them for their lack of attire is likely to get a lecture on the myriad ways clothing creates chaos.

Is it canon that wearing clothing is actually a chaotic act?

[enderlord99]

Is it canon that wearing clothing is actually a chaotic act?

No; it just leads to chaotic results because fashion.

[Adslahnit]

I'm not sure I'm clear on the question. Are you asking if an exemplar can become a god without previously having been an exemplar lord?

Perhaps I should clarify, then.

1. Can an exemplar (for this purpose, assume either a guardinal or a yugoloth) become a true deity while skipping being an exemplar lord?

2. Can an exemplar (again, assume either a guardinal or a yugoloth) progress from exemplar lord to true deity?

[afroakuma]

Is it canon that wearing clothing is actually a chaotic act?

No.

1. Can an exemplar (for this purpose, assume either a guardinal or a yugoloth) become a true deity while skipping being an exemplar lord?

We don't know. In theory, any being that accrues enough worship can become a god... but we don't know that becoming an exemplar lord of some sort wouldn't be a transitional step in that process.

2. Can an exemplar (again, assume either a guardinal or a yugoloth) progress from exemplar lord to true deity?

Exemplar lords have done so in a few rare occasions... but guardinals and yugoloths are both particularly poor choices, as neither race has true lords to speak of.

[Adslahnit]

I was under the impression that the Five Companions, the Oinoloth, and the General of Gehenna were all exemplar lords. Are they not?

Also, can an intact Netherese mythallar work in the Outer Planes or the Inner Planes, or would the lack of a Weave there prevent it from functioning?

One enclave with a mythallar exists in the Astral Plane, and another lingered in the Plane of Shadow for a long while, so why not a mythallar in the Outer Planes or the Inner Planes?

[afroakuma]

I was under the impression that the Five Companions, the Oinoloth, and the General of Gehenna were all exemplar lords. Are they not?

The Five Companions are generally counted among their number, but are merely the most elite guardinals of their respective types - none is a unique being or the holder of transferable office. The Oinoloth is a holder of a unique office, but does not actually rule his race, nor is the office he occupies a daemonic one; rather, it is service to the Siege Malicious, a major artifact bound to Khin-Oin. Mydianchlarus is just an ultroloth wearing a template, and the race does not follow him.

The General of Gehenna, conversely, does rule and lead his people, insofar as anyone is aware; however, he is not a unique being nor is his essence bound to a plane in any exceptional fashion. The General is, as far as anyone knows, just another ultroloth.

Also, can an intact Netherese mythallar work in the Outer Planes or the Inner Planes, or would the lack of a Weave there prevent it from functioning?

A mythallar would not function on the Outer or Inner Planes or on most demiplanes. It is intricately bound to the functioning of the Weave. Artifacts with similar functions could of course be crafted that would be more compatible, but given the nature of the artifact in question I would surmise that it would likely not take kindly to being moved, and might be hazardous to attempt to create on a plane where the rules and even the very nature of magic are so very different.

One enclave with a mythallar exists in the Astral Plane, and another lingered in the Plane of Shadow for a long while, so why not a mythallar in the Outer Planes or the Inner Planes?

The Plane of Shadow is coexistent with the Material Plane, and thoroughly perfused with the Weave in the local area of Toril. The Astral Plane is coterminous to the Material Plane, and perfused with Weave links near points of coterminity. The Outer and Inner Planes are neither coexistent with nor coterminous to Toril.

[Adslahnit]

Should the Book of Exalted Deeds' method of statting out Talisid and each of the Five Companions as unique entities be ignored, then?

Also, if if Primus is supposedly on the level of a greater deity while in Mechanus in AD&D 2e, then why is he distinctly killable in the listed climate/terrain of Mechanus? Very powerful, but still killable.

Finally, in-universe, what happened to Baphomet, Demogorgon, Kostchtchie, Juiblex, and Yeenoghu for them to lose their status as true powers in the transition from 2e to 3.X?

[Eldan]

Deities, too, have been killed before, and by things considerably less powerful than the Last Word.

[afroakuma]

Should the Book of Exalted Deeds' method of statting out Talisid and each of the Five Companions as unique entities be ignored, then?

Unique? Look at Talisid's "unique abilities." Resist Nature's Lure, Thousand Faces, Trackless Step, Woodland Stride and most damning of all, Wild Shape. He's nothing more than a celestial druid, with fewer spells to his name to boot. Manath has Powerful Charge. Bharrai's special power is the ability to blow less stuff up. Sathia and Valla have nothing but bigger numbers. Kharrash is probably the most interesting, being a sort of ranger/good-assassin.

None of them are beings of any exceptional nature beyond being simply the most elite of their given kind. Frankly, I'd expect their abilities to be far more exceptional than what the Book of Enfeebled Designs allocated, but then, it was a notably lazy effort all around, so really...

Other questions to be addressed shortly

[Naanomi]

I've been thinking about the move of Menausus/Nemausus from Arcadia to Mechanus and have some questions about it:

1) Do we have any evidence of any other planar layer making a move like that in the past? Casualties of the Law/Chaos War?

2) Could a planar layer become 'too neutral' and 'migrate' to the Outlands?

3) Are there currently any other Planar layers at risk of 'moving'?

4) Even if none are at risk, which planar layers even have the potential? I'd say...
~Planes with one layer may lose portions of themselves, but cannot categorically lose the 'whole place'... Mechanus, Limbo, the Outlands
~In a few planes, the number of layers seems categorically important and thus while regions could move, whole layers cannot... Celestia, Baator, Byopia...
~The Abyss really wouldn't even notice jettisoning off a layer; though the place that received it would probably be heavily effected
~I'd also guess that the 'first layer' of any plane is too important structurally to the Outer Planes to really move, regardless of circumstances

Some places that seem to be 'at risk' potentially... Belierin doesn't seem particularly 'Good'... Mithardir/Pelion seems to be a pretty Neutral place overall, neither really Chaotic or Good to me...Muspelheim and Nidavellir are also comparatively 'ungood'... likewise parts of Carceri (Agatys in particular) can come across as pretty Lawful-Evil... Krangath can be a bit 'neutral' in the 'dead' sense... and Tintibulus and (even more so) Ocanthus come across as pretty Chaotic for their place in the cosmos.

[enderlord99]

and Tintibulus and (even more so) Ocanthus come across as pretty Chaotic for their place in the cosmos.

They seem that way, but they aren't. Anyone feel like reposting the "Acheron doesn't hate you" speech?

[Lord_Gareth]

Yes, Acheron looks a little Chaotic on the outside. You know what, from the outside Carceri looks a little lawful. But Acheron isn't chaotic. Acheron is battle without resolution, law without harmony, order without structure, misery without hope, death without glory, unity without individuality. Acheron is not a plane that hates you; indeed, it is Acheron's utter indifference to you that eventually kills you. Acheron is the grinding monotony of hopelessness, and it is the weary horror of cynicism so great that it consumes morality. The sergeant who grows weary of fighting corruption and embraces bribery goes to Acheron; the office drone who takes out his misery on others by providing them barriers to actual help goes to Acheron. It is the punishment for which there was no crime, the penalty without a violation, the monolithic crushing indifference of Law with no moral compass, of conflict without belief, of tyranny without vanity.

Acheron doesn't hate you.

It wants you to die anyway.

I hear the summons.

[Tovec]

Not fast enough, move along.

[Tzardok]

3) Are there currently any other Planar layers at risk of 'moving'?

I read somewhere that the Harmonium is gathering on the second layer of Arkadia to reclaim Menausus, ironically and inadvertently shifting that layer dangerously far away from Good.

[enderlord99]

I read somewhere that the Harmonium is gathering on the second layer of Arkadia to reclaim Menausus, ironically and inadvertently shifting that layer dangerously far away from Good.

I wonder if the Harmonium will eventually cause Arcadia to stop existing entirely.

...That's probably about a -9, now that I think about it.