Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus

[Kurald Galain]

Favored class options are worth discussion.

Certainly.

Over a few levels, the favored class options are the equivalent of feats like Toughness (if you go for hit points), Extra Arcane Pool (human/half-elf/suli/tiefling), Combat Casting (kobold), or Extra Arcana (halfling/elf and kind-of dwarf). Out of these, Extra Arcana is the strongest choice. Extra skill points aren't generally needed on a class with high intelligence.

Note that just because the Bladebound gets less pool points doesn't mean that he has to get extra pool points from somewhere to compensate. He can also draw pool from the blade itself, and he can alternatively compensate by taking abilities/arcana that don't use pool points.

[Sayt]

Have I mentioned this is a great guide? 'Cause it really is.

I'm not 100% on the legality of this: but can you use arcane deed to grab deeds from Swashbuckler archetypes, such as the Inspired Blade's Inspired Strike?

Because two arcane points to get an auto critical threat seems pretty good.

[Kurald Galain]

Have I mentioned this is a great guide? 'Cause it really is.

Thank you

can you use arcane deed to grab deeds from Swashbuckler archetypes, such as the Inspired Blade's Inspired Strike?

Unfortunately, no.

[Sayt]

Unfortunately, no.

Damn, I thought there may have been some latitude, with Inspired Blades being a subset of Swashbucklers.

[Kurald Galain]

Since familiars are very powerful and flexible these days, and an obvious pick for any Magus that's not a bladebound, I've added a section on familiars and familiar archetypes. Enjoy!

[Serafina]

You forgot about the Compsognathus, which also grants +4 Initiative. Being a Dinosaur, it arguably has limbs that can pick up things, which can be quite useful.

It's also worth mentioning that there are several small Familiars. At the very least they can block an additional space to enemy movement and provide assistance via flanking. It obviously makes them more likely to be attacked, but if you are worried about that you can simply use a Figment Familiar.

For anyone who wants to craft magic items, the Valet Familiar is also extremely useful. Basically, it will double the speed at which you craft magic items, which is a pretty big bonus.
In theory, the familiar can also craft magic items on it's own - if your familiar has the necessary limbs, it will certainly have the Intelligence score and item creation feats. It can't provide the spells on it's own, but that's only necessary once per crafting process and can by bypassed via a higher DC on the skill check. Hence, you could be out adventuring while your familiar crafts at home (not ideal, but it's possible).
Furthermore, the Valet actually shares all your Teamwork feats. This can be good in a group that works with Teamwork feats - but it's actually pretty decent on it's own too. If you have a relibable partner (which your Familiar obviously is), Teamwork Feats can grant +4 to attack, +4 to AC, +1 to all Saves, +6 to AC or a number of other bonuses and advantages, and a Ring of Tactical Precision worn by your familiar can increase all those bonuses by 1. Which effectively turns, say, Shake it Off into +2 to all saves at the cost of one feat.

Granted, this is probably not the guide for this, but I still think it's worth mentioning the Valet-Archetype and it's bonuses to Crafters and Teamwork.

[Slithery D]

It can't provide the spells on it's own, but that's only necessary once per crafting process and can by bypassed via a higher DC on the skill check.

The bolded isn't true, you (or an assistant) have to have the spell known/prepared every time you work on the item if you don't want the higher DC penalty.

[Serafina]

Right, my bad.

Still, it's possible to just use the Valet-Familiar as a crafter while you're away. It's a rather niche-use though, since you could just craft on the go for a lot of items (basically anything where the GM doesn't say you can't carry the necessary tools with you).
Progress while out adventuring is 250 gp/day, but the familiar ups that to 500 gp/day thanks to Cooperative Crafting.
Of course, depending on DCs, the Familiar crafting on it's own can net 2000 gp/day (8 hours of accelerated crafting for +5 DC), while you can do 250 gp out adventuring. But that's really only a high-level scenario. And crafting in a workshop with the familiars help is still the fastest method, for up to 4000 gp/day.

[Kurald Galain]

You forgot about the Compsognathus, which also grants +4 Initiative. Being a Dinosaur, it arguably has limbs that can pick up things, which can be quite useful.

Well, I was aiming to list not every familiar but just a selection. I'd say that almost all familiars can pick up stuff with their mouth or beak.

It's also worth mentioning that there are several small Familiars. At the very least they can block an additional space to enemy movement and provide assistance via flanking. It obviously makes them more likely to be attacked, but if you are worried about that you can simply use a Figment Familiar.

That's a good point, I'll add that.

Furthermore, the Valet actually shares all your Teamwork feats. This can be good in a group that works with Teamwork feats - but it's actually pretty decent on it's own too.

Yes; the main problem here is that a familiar is rather vulnerable (having low hit points and no particular defenses to speak of). Flanking with a figment is good since it's essentially immortal, but using a valet to outflank is just asking for trouble. I think that many GMs would object to a familiar wearing heavy armor, carrying a shield, or crafting; indeed, the page on familiars suggests that animals don't do that. There's also a rule against (most) familiars wearing magical items like rings.

Shake it off is a decent trick. However, if you want to boost your saves, an Emissary (reroll will 1/d) is a better choice than spending a feat and 11,000 gp for +2 to saves.

Also, I've taken a look at the Spymaster's Handbook but this doesn't contain any particularly good material for the Magus.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Some of those drawbacks are interesting from what I looked over, but I agree.

So I'm making that character I've been kicking around, the hexcrafter with the Path of War feats to used Cursed Razor. Feats are a real crunch for this character, so much that I'm deliberately not doing the 'intensified shocking grasp' trick. For traits, I'm taking a PoW combat trait that nets me a 1st level maneuver, Bruising Intellect, and I'm going to take Warded Against Nature to take an alternate magic trait. I've been thinking of Stabbing Spells, since I'm going to be picking up Arcane Anthology and Magic Tactics Toolbook, but I'm still very much open to suggestion on that, and it's rather one of the things I need advice on.

Second is the first arcana. I don't want to go Bladebound, so it's probably going to be the only normal arcana I take, ever (or at least for the foreseeable future). I was thinking either Arcane Accuracy, since Cursed Razor will be devouring swift actions and only has one accuracy boost (attack touch), or familiar to pick up a mauler. I very much need assistance choosing.

Also, since I can't find the Magic Warrior archetype anywhere, what does it replace?

[Secret Wizard]

Just coming here to note hexcrafter and bladebound do not stack, as the former alters arcana.

Also, since I can't find the Magic Warrior archetype anywhere, what does it replace?

It's from inner sea intrigue. Don't have the book with me but I think it replaces several arcana and improved/greater spell combat.

[Kurald Galain]

Just coming here to note hexcrafter and bladebound do not stack

On the contrary: the common understanding is (and has always been) that they do stack, and it's a common combination on the official Paizo forum.

It is my understanding that Magus Arcana is not "a class feature [that] grants multiple subfeatures", therefore the two would stack. For example, bardic performance has a pretty big block of text explaining how performing works in general, and then it has subfeatures that say e.g. "at level 8, you can perform to play a Dirge of Doom". Clearly Dirge of Doom requires the main class feature of performance in order to do anything, hence it is a subfeature. This does not apply to Magus Arcana, which stand on their own.

Indeed, looking over the Paizo site, this appears to be a popular combination with not a lot of discussion or controversy about it. While it is obviously debatable (clearly you've met a GM who disagrees) as far as I can tell the forum consensus is that yes, the two do work together. HTH!

[Kurald Galain]

I'm going to take Warded Against Nature to take an alternate magic trait. I've been thinking of Stabbing Spells, since I'm going to be picking up Arcane Anthology and Magic Tactics Toolbook, but I'm still very much open to suggestion on that

What level wil you be playing at? Spell resistance is only prevalent at higher levels (and of course, if you're going to focus on buffs, you won't care about SR).
Good alternatives include Defensive Strategist, Finish the Fight, and Valashmai Veteran.

Second is the first arcana. I don't want to go Bladebound, so it's probably going to be the only normal arcana I take, ever (or at least for the foreseeable future). I was thinking either Arcane Accuracy, since Cursed Razor will be devouring swift actions and only has one accuracy boost (attack touch), or familiar to pick up a mauler.

Wait, if Cursed Razor takes up most of your swift actions, then you should take arcana that don't use swifts. Familiars are very good these days; check out the new familiar section in the handbook.

[Secret Wizard]

Doesn't work that way.

Altering a pool of options is irrevocably changing its power balance.

For example, let's say I made an archetype that changed the list of Bonus Feats available to the Monk to a list of worse feats, as a conscious decision to reduce overall power budget of an archetype to fit in better replacement abilities elsewhere.

Then, what if there were another archetype out there that removed several Bonus Feats across many levels for cool replacements?

By this logic, a player could pick both archetypes and avoid my attempt to balance the first archetype.

Similarly, if an archetype allowed greater access to Bonus Feats and another archetype replaced another feature for the ability to pick more Bonus Feats, the latter archetype would unbalance the first.

Just because Bladebound + Hexcrafter doesn't work necessarily this way doesn't mean that the principle doesn't apply.

Here is the relevant section on the archetype rules on ACG:

In general, if a class feature grants multiple subfeatures, it’s OK to take two archetypes that only change two separate subfeatures. This includes two bard archetypes that alter or replace different bardic performances (even though bardic performance is technically a single class feature) or two fighter archetypes that replace the weapon training gained at different levels (sometimes referred to as “weapon training I, II, III, or IV”) even though those all fall under the class feature weapon training. However, if something alters the way the parent class feature works, such as a mime archetype that makes all bardic performances completely silent, with only visual components instead of auditory, you can’t take that archetype with an archetype that alters or replaces any of the sub-features. This even applies for something as small as adding 1 extra round of bardic performance each day, adding an additional bonus feat to the list of bonus feats you can select, or adding an additional class skill to the class. As always, individual GMs should feel free to houserule to allow small overlaps on a case by case basis, but the underlying rule exists due to the unpredictability of combining these changes.

Hexcrafter alters Arcana, Bladebound replaces one of its subfeatures.

I would have liked this to stack too, but the fact that people don't think its controversial doesn't mean it works.

[Kurald Galain]

Doesn't work that way.

Frankly, a casual look over the Paizo forums shows that most people disagree with your interpretation.

[Secret Wizard]

Frankly, a casual look over the Paizo forums shows that most people disagree with your interpretation.

Guess someone should have told that to Galileo.

You seem to be absolutely ignoring the rest of my post, including my quoting of rules text and a very sensible explanation of why ignoring this restriction could cause balance exploits.

Why don't you make a post in the rules forum?

[Extra Anchovies]

There's nothing in the archetype descriptions to suggest that Bladebound and Hexcrafter are mutually exclusive.

Hex Arcana

A hexcrafter gains access to the following magus arcana, or may select any witch hex in place of a magus arcana. At 12th level, the hexcrafter may select a hex or major hex in place of a magus arcana. At 18th level, a hexcrafter can select a hex, major hex, or grand hex in place of a magus arcana. He cannot select any hex or arcana more than once.

This affects the list of magus arcana, and (possibly) the 12th and 18th level arcana class features.

Black Blade (Ex)

At 3rd level, the bladebound magus’ gains a powerful sentient weapon called a black blade, whose weapon type is chosen by the magus (see sidebar). A magus with this class feature cannot take the familiar magus arcana, and cannot have a familiar of any kind, even from another class.

Instead of the normal arcane pool amount, the bladebound magus’s arcane pool has a number of points equal to 1/3 his level (minimum 1) plus his Intelligence bonus.

This ability changes the Arcane Pool class feature and replaces the magus arcana gained at 3rd level.

This affects the arcane pool class feature and the 3rd level arcana class feature.

I see no overlap. The list of arcana is a separate part of the class from each individual instance of the arcana class feature, in the same way that a class's spell list is a different part of the class from their spellcasting class feature.

Guess someone should have told that to Galileo.

That's not a particularly sound comparison - in our case, all parties involved have access to any and all relevant information, i.e. the whole of Pathfinder's official rules.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

What level wil you be playing at? Spell resistance is only prevalent at higher levels (and of course, if you're going to focus on buffs, you won't care about SR).
Good alternatives include Defensive Strategist, Finish the Fight, and Valashmai Veteran.

Starting at level one, but I'm going to be debuff-heavy. Chill/Frost Touch and curse spells galore. Also I can literally take none of those traits. Gods don't exist in this setting, my guy is a human and is not adopted, and he grew up in cold regions.

Wait, if Cursed Razor takes up most of your swift actions, then you should take arcana that don't use swifts. Familiars are very good these days; check out the new familiar section in the handbook.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. Also, it gives the (small) party another melee, which helps us out.

[Secret Wizard]

There's nothing in the archetype descriptions to suggest that Bladebound and Hexcrafter are mutually exclusive.

This affects the list of magus arcana, and (possibly) the 12th and 18th level arcana class features.

This affects the arcane pool class feature and the 3rd level arcana class feature.

I see no overlap. The list of arcana is a separate part of the class from each individual instance of the arcana class feature, in the same way that a class's spell list is a different part of the class from their spellcasting class feature.


That's not a particularly sound comparison - in our case, all parties involved have access to any and all relevant information, i.e. the whole of Pathfinder's official rules.

Here you go:

In general, if a class feature grants multiple subfeatures, it’s OK to take two archetypes that only change two separate subfeatures. This includes two bard archetypes that alter or replace different bardic performances (even though bardic performance is technically a single class feature) or two fighter archetypes that replace the weapon training gained at different levels (sometimes referred to as “weapon training I, II, III, or IV”) even though those all fall under the class feature weapon training. However, if something alters the way the parent class feature works, such as a mime archetype that makes all bardic performances completely silent, with only visual components instead of auditory, you can’t take that archetype with an archetype that alters or replaces any of the sub-features. This even applies for something as small as adding 1 extra round of bardic performance each day, adding an additional bonus feat to the list of bonus feats you can select, or adding an additional class skill to the class. As always, individual GMs should feel free to houserule to allow small overlaps on a case by case basis, but the underlying rule exists due to the unpredictability of combining these changes.

Again, emphasis mine.

Even if it doesn't say "this alters arcana", it alters arcana.

[Extra Anchovies]

I read and understood that the first time you posted it. Making the text bigger and bolder doesn't make it more correct.

However, if something alters the way the parent class feature works,... you can’t take that archetype with an archetype that alters or replaces any of the sub-features

Great! But the list of arcana is not a parent feature of each instance of the magus arcana class feature at levels 3, 6, etc. A magus who (hypothetically) trades away all six of the arcana they learn to various ACFs still has a list of arcana they could learn as a magus - they just don't get to ever actually learn any of them. A magus who (hypothetically) selects ACFs that remove every possible choice of arcana from the list available to them still has the magus arcana class feature, and six slots to fit arcana into - they just don't have any arcana available to fill the slots with, so they have to leave them empty. Both class features can exist without the other, therefore neither is a parent feature of the other.

Even if it doesn't say "this alters arcana", it alters arcana.

It would if it did, but it doesn't. Altering the list of magus arcana is different from altering the magus arcana class feature, in the same way that altering a spell list is different from altering the spellcasting class feature.

[Secret Wizard]

But the list of arcana is not a parent feature of each instance of the magus arcana class feature at levels 3, 6, etc.

The list of arcana is the arcana feature itself. Any archetype that changes or adds to the list of Bonus Feats for the monks is treated as altering the Bonus Feat feature itself.

For example:

Bonus Feat

At 6th level, a student of stone adds Elemental Fist to his list of available bonus feats. If the student of stone selects Elemental Fist as a bonus feat, he may only deal acid damage when using the feat.

At 10th level, the student of stone adds Shaitan Style to his list of bonus feats.

At 14th level, he adds Shaitan Skin.

At 18th level, he adds Shaitan Earthblast.

This otherwise functions as and alters the bonus feat ability.

Clearly, changing a list is changing the parent feature, so your point is moot.

[Kurald Galain]

Starting at level one, but I'm going to be debuff-heavy. Chill/Frost Touch and curse spells galore. Also I can literally take none of those traits. Gods don't exist in this setting, my guy is a human and is not adopted, and he grew up in cold regions.

Ok, Seeker is an alternative of that Valashmai trait. Otherwise, if you have anything in particular that you're looking for, we can tell you if there's a trait for that.

I see no overlap. The list of arcana is a separate part of the class from each individual instance of the arcana class feature, in the same way that a class's spell list is a different part of the class from their spellcasting class feature.

I concur.

[Extra Anchovies]

The list of arcana is the arcana feature itself.

I disagree. Magi do not gain access to their list of arcana at 3rd, 6th, 9th, etc - they gain selected items from the list at those levels, but the list exists independently from the slots that the magus fills by drawing from the list.

changing a list is changing the parent feature

Your given example shows that a feature which changes a list that another feature draws from is an alteration of that other feature when the list-changing feature says so. Hex Arcana does not contain the same "This otherwise functions as and alters the [Magus Arcana] feature" - so any conclusions we draw from the Student of Stone cannot necessarily be applied to the Hexcrafter.

[Secret Wizard]

It has been stated already that it doesn't need to say "this alters/replaces this other thing" for the feature to do so.

[Anlashok]

I concur.

Any sane interpretation of the rules agrees with you Kurald, however Paizo has decided to throw sanity out the window here:

adding an additional bonus feat to the list of bonus feats you can select

Adding an additional arcana choice is definitely comparable here and somehow makes it incompatible with any other archetype that alters arcana in any way whatsoever.


Do note that this is a rule so nonsensical and so disliked that I've even seen it outright ignored in Society play on a consistent basis and seen some members of Paizo's staff admit that it's best ignored, but strict RAW, adding a new arcana and replacing one arcana chosen magically count as altering the same class feature.

[Secret Wizard]

Yep, I don't apply it in my games (unless it's something like the hypothetical cases where archetype balance is called to terms), but I also don't say in my guides that this doesn't matter.

It's still a rule in the official game and it's still a rule in PFS, which is one of the largest player venues, and its negligent not to note it.

[Kurald Galain]

SW, let's agree to disagree on this. You've made your point, there's no need to keep repeating it.

[Kurald Galain]

I've added the Clear Spindle ioun stone and the Irradiate spell. Coming up next are the Horror Adventures and Legacy of Dragons splatbooks, as soon as I get a chance to read them!

[Deadkitten]

From what i remember reading, there is no magus archetype in the book.

Possibly nothing much at all.

[Kekmaster]

Hello.
Ive been planning on a Dex elven Kensai Bladebound(with wakizashi as Black Blade) Magus with a 2 level dip into Lore Warden for 2 bonus feats(3 effectively, considering Combat Reflexes) to be spent on Finesse and Deadly Agility(path of war feat that lets you add dex to dmg on any finessable weapon). 25-point buy, starting level is not yet determined, so the stats on level 1 should be like 12 str\con, 18\17 dex\int. Favored class bonus is obviously extra arcana.
The question is the dip worth it? It looks like yes, but maybe there is something that i miss? Also, since im an elf, there are several(4) "Song" arcanas, and one(Song of Arcane triumph, 1 pool point as a swift action on succesful strike for 1d6 sonic dmg\level. Fort save(10+1\2 level+int mod) for half, multiplied on crit and ignores crit resist) looks really-really situationally cool, but eats swift action.

Also, about the Deeds Arcanas. While precise strike may not longer be an option(but for me it is) there is another pickable Deed at 11th level which gives you Evasion(only regular one), Uncanny Dodge and its improved cousin, all in one. Looks kinda cool, if you can afford the spare arcana\feat.