Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus

[Kurald Galain]

It's got a few things that caught my eye as far as character building goes. As my forum avatar might suggest I have a lot of interest in mining and geology. I've also for the longest time wondered if there might be a way to make a weapon like a pickaxe viable in actual combat. The archetype seems to encourage fighting with that weapon as well as investing points in Profession (Miner) and Knowledge Dungeoneering. It's also got a good selection of earth-based spells.

The main issue with the Deep Marshal is that it sounds like it gives you new abilities, but the baseline class already has those abilities.

Want to wield a pick? Well, it's a martial weapon, Magus is proficient. Want Profession and K:Dungeon skills? They're both already class skills for the base Magus. Good abjuration magic? Yes, Marshal gains all abjuration wizard spells, but please find me a good one that isn't already on the Magus list.

And commonly, a Magus will use Mirror Image or Displacement or Greater Invisibility for defense in combat (since these are all better than just having a good armor class). All of these are illusions.

So the Marshal is certainly playable, but it loses much more than it gains (primarily because it doesn't gain a whole lot). That's why it's rated yellow.

[Serafina]

Well, here's what the archetype gives you:
- it gives you medium armor right away, and heavy armor sooner than usual
- you get to add half your weapons enhancement bonus to your caster level, and your full enhancement bonus to overcome spell resistance
- you get to learn some non-combat spells
- you get full ranks in two non-combat skills
And here's what it costs you:
- you only get 1/3rd of your level into your arcana pool, instead of 1/2
- you're restricted to certain weapons, none of which has a good crit-range
- you can't cast Illusion, Enchantment or Necromancy-spells
- you don't get your 3rd-level Arcana

Medium and heavy armor are nice for a strenght Magus. And +caster level is pretty great - it means extra damage, extra duration, extra effect, and you'll have an easier time with spell resistance as well. So you're getting some worthwhile things for combat - even if they're not actually related to being a "battle-miner". The question is, how much do the drawbacks hurt you?

A slightly smaller arcana pool isn't too bad. At 10th level, this'll cost you 2 arcana points, which is the value of about one feat.
The weapon restriction isn't too bad. Crit fishing is a good strategy for a magus, but it's not a necessity.
So it's the spell restrictions you have to take a closer look at.
- you lose Daze, which is the best combat-cantrip for the Magus.
- you lose Mirror Image, one of the best defense buffs in the game
- you lose Vampiric Touch, which is excellent with spell strike.
- you lose Displacement, which is also one of the best defensive buffs
- you lose Greater Invisibility, which is great for both offense and defense
and that's just some of the blue-rated spells. You also lose stuff like Vanish, and Colour Spray, and so on.

Can you still play that archetype? Sure!
You'll just not have access to some of the best spell options. No dazing enemies via spell combat at low levels, so instead you just melee - which still works fine. Instead of Mirror Image or Displacement, you use other defensive spells and rely more on your higher AC. And you still have the core offensive damage-dealing spells of the Magus, so you're definetly fine there!

You wouldn't recommend it on mechanical merit since it bars a lot of good options, but if you're interested in the flavor and non-combat options, you're getting a solid caster-level boost and some armor out of it.

[Ellrin]

The archetype seems to encourage fighting with that weapon as well as investing points in Profession (Miner) and Knowledge Dungeoneering.

The way I'm reading it, investing skill points in Profession (Miner) and Knowledge (Dungeoneering) is actually a waste of points, since it automatically treats you as having ranks in those skills equal to your level starting at level 3. While this saves you a couple skill points per level that you can do something else with, you don't actually get any special bonus to those skills. In other words, if you don't mind fewer skills you're good at, you can be a normal Magus, still sink your normal skill points into ranks of those skills at every level and come out no worse at dungeoneering and mining than you'd have been otherwise.

I'm afraid Deep Marshal doesn't actually add very much mechanically to support its flavor that the vanilla magus can't already do.

[Serafina]

Well, you get all those non-combat spells such as Expeditous Excavation, Stone Shape, Passwall, and the like, which do fit them theme.
And while you could try to get them via others means, at that point you have to look at the cost of that, and compare them to the cost of the archetype.

[tadkins]

Hmm, much to think about! I suppose in the end I could just play a regular Magus and keep the Marshal roleplay?

Much appreciated everyone, thanks. :)

[Kurald Galain]

I've had some time to look over the Planar Adventures book, and it has a number of interesting feats.

• Authoritative Spell is interesting. If used with a spell that doesn't give a saving throw (e.g. Ray of Frost) then the feat doesn't give a save either. Also available as metarod.
• Blissful Spell is a decent buff or debuff on every spell you cast. Also available as metarod.
• Chaos Reigns is nice for a polymorph-based Magus; whenever you're in a form without hands, this gives you an extra attack.
• Crypt Spell adds an automatic debuff for undead to all your spells; probably best as a metarod.
• Grasping Tail is decent on any race with a tail (e.g. kitsune) that doesn't have the tiefling's or vanara's tail ability.
• Planar Infusion is a good feat but it's more flexible to use the Bestow Planar Infusion spell for it.
• Tidal Swiftness basically gives you +10' movement rate whenever you have time to prepare for combat.
• Wanderer's Fortune feat gives you freedom of movement at-need as a swift action. Wow.

Heroes of the Fringe has one interesting feat, which is Gifts from the Sea. As written it appears to bypass the restriction on what spells can be potions. If this feat can give you e.g. Monkey Fish or Longstrider 1/d then it's an interesting pick. If not, it is immediately obsoleted by some cheap actual potions.

[Kurald Galain]

After half a year, they've finally updated the additional resources document. As predicted, Numerology Cylinder is banned. "Living glass" is also banned, and since there is no such item I'm going out on a limb here and suggest they mean liquid glass.

No word on Distant Realms's magic trick feat yet, or on Blood of the Ancients, which would cover the Jistkan Artificer archetype. Oh, and the Mnemonic Siphon spell which is funny but rather impractical.

[dude123nice]

The main issue with the Deep Marshal is that it sounds like it gives you new abilities, but the baseline class already has those abilities.

Want to wield a pick? Well, it's a martial weapon, Magus is proficient. Want Profession and K:Dungeon skills? They're both already class skills for the base Magus. Good abjuration magic? Yes, Marshal gains all abjuration wizard spells, but please find me a good one that isn't already on the Magus list.

And commonly, a Magus will use Mirror Image or Displacement or Greater Invisibility for defense in combat (since these are all better than just having a good armor class). All of these are illusions.

So the Marshal is certainly playable, but it loses much more than it gains (primarily because it doesn't gain a whole lot). That's why it's rated yellow.

I actually can't believe that people who don't get this have actually read the OOTS comic. There was an entire strip dedicated to mocking the idea that if you want your character to be centered around a certain theme, you HAVE to take an class/archetype that references that theme. Comic 209 to be more exact.

[tadkins]

I actually can't believe that people who don't get this have actually read the OOTS comic. There was an entire strip dedicated to mocking the idea that if you want your character to be centered around a certain theme, you HAVE to take an class/archetype that references that theme. Comic 209 to be more exact.

I've been following the OOTS comic for at least a few years now, thank you very much.

I understand full well that you don't have to pick a certain class or archetype to follow a RP theme, but it is still nice to see them fit when possible. There is nothing at all wrong with asking about certain ones that pique ones interest.

[skaddix]

It is funny it makes sense because the system has so many names for classes it doesn't really leave much room for social positions or job titles outside of that system.

[Ellrin]

I actually can't believe that people who don't get this have actually read the OOTS comic. There was an entire strip dedicated to mocking the idea that if you want your character to be centered around a certain theme, you HAVE to take an class/archetype that references that theme. Comic 209 to be more exact.

I actually discovered this forum long before I read OOTS, and stopped following OOTS over a year ago, not long after I caught up with it. I don't think an encyclopedic knowledge of the webcomic that spawned the forum is really necessary to post here.

[tadkins]

I mean, it's an interesting topic and one that probably deserves its own thread, but game mechanics and RP should go hand in hand a bit I think.

When making a character it makes sense to look up what matches best with the character you envision. If I RPed as a dashing, swashbuckling rogue, swinging about a rapier and claiming connections to various thieves guilds, but my character sheet said "Wizard 5", my DM and fellow players would probably have some questions. Same deal if I pretended to cast spells as an int-dumping barbarian.

I saw the Deep Marshal class, saw it combined magical combat with a touch of earthen power, and thought it looked neat. So I asked about it. Didn't work out as well as I thought but it doesn't make it an illegitimate thing to ask.

[Ellrin]

If I RPed as a dashing, swashbuckling rogue, swinging about a rapier and claiming connections to various thieves guilds, but my character sheet said "Wizard 5", my DM and fellow players would probably have some questions. Same deal if I pretended to cast spells as an int-dumping barbarian.

While mechanics such as class and archetype can add flavor to a character, I think it's a mistake to pigeonhole a character's class as being their life, or even just their job. A character's class is effectively just how that character is able to get things done, it doesn't necessarily define what he can do. A cleric doesn't need to be an ordained priest, a fighter doesn't need to be a mercenary soldier, a monk doesn't need to be a temple guardian—in fact you can have a fighter who's an ordained priest or a cleric who's a mercenary soldier. About the only two classes—not archetypes or PrCs, mind you—I can readily think of that have career choices built into them are paladin and druid, and even those are more loose and flexible than you might think. I made a paladin once who started her life as a thief and retained those skills even as a paladin. She was sneaky, a fast talker (if not necessarily a liar), and could disarm traps with the best of them. She most certainly wasn't a knight on a white horse, nor a wannabe cop, nor a proselytizer; she just upheld the code, and she tried to support people in becoming better than they were. Most people who met her had no idea she was a paladin.

All that said, I'm not saying avoid mechanical options that support your character's RP, just that using unexpected mechanical options can sometimes make for a deeper flavor. If you've already got a specific RP idea in mind and you find a mechanical option that really supports that, by all means, use it, whether it seems immediately explicit or not. The marriage between an RP concept and the mechanics is what makes P&P RPGs so fun, for me at least.

[TheOneHawk]

That sounds like an awesome paladin.

Not much else to contribute, just really love the idea of that.

[dude123nice]

All that said, I'm not saying avoid mechanical options that support your character's RP, just that using unexpected mechanical options can sometimes make for a deeper flavor.

Define "sometimes". Because it often feels like "more than half the times". People should never really try to pick an archetype or class just because it matches the name of their RP theme, because, more often than not, the mechanics either don't really match, or are VERY weak.

[tadkins]

While mechanics such as class and archetype can add flavor to a character, I think it's a mistake to pigeonhole a character's class as being their life, or even just their job. A character's class is effectively just how that character is able to get things done, it doesn't necessarily define what he can do. A cleric doesn't need to be an ordained priest, a fighter doesn't need to be a mercenary soldier, a monk doesn't need to be a temple guardian—in fact you can have a fighter who's an ordained priest or a cleric who's a mercenary soldier. About the only two classes—not archetypes or PrCs, mind you—I can readily think of that have career choices built into them are paladin and druid, and even those are more loose and flexible than you might think. I made a paladin once who started her life as a thief and retained those skills even as a paladin. She was sneaky, a fast talker (if not necessarily a liar), and could disarm traps with the best of them. She most certainly wasn't a knight on a white horse, nor a wannabe cop, nor a proselytizer; she just upheld the code, and she tried to support people in becoming better than they were. Most people who met her had no idea she was a paladin.

All that said, I'm not saying avoid mechanical options that support your character's RP, just that using unexpected mechanical options can sometimes make for a deeper flavor. If you've already got a specific RP idea in mind and you find a mechanical option that really supports that, by all means, use it, whether it seems immediately explicit or not. The marriage between an RP concept and the mechanics is what makes P&P RPGs so fun, for me at least.

Fair enough. And that does sound like a cool paladin slash rogue hybrid character. How did you build it though? Did you include feats, or a PrC that supported the idea of a "sneaky knight"?

[Ellrin]

That sounds like an awesome paladin.

Not much else to contribute, just really love the idea of that.

Thanks. I actually took some inspiration from a pathfinder blog I was reading quite a bit of around the time I made her and I can't quite remember the name of, though I wanted to go a bit further with the idea of a paladin people don't know is a paladin. A bit more on topic, I remember around the same time I kind of wanted to try making an arcane kinda-sorta-paladin with a magus VMC paladin, but I realized pretty quickly how completely useless VMC paladin would be on such a build, which was disappointing.

Fair enough. And that does sound like a cool paladin slash rogue hybrid character. How did you build it though? Did you include feats, or a PrC that supported the idea of a "sneaky knight"?

I feel like I'm derailing the thread a bit, but to be brief: the campaign ended unfortunately quickly, and I never planned the build out much further than we got; but to the point we got to, she was a straight paladin with the tortured crusader archetype, meaning she got 4+Int skill points; I didn't dump Int, put my FCBs into skill points, and since my DM at the time was using the background skills system, she actually wound up pretty skilled. She was an archer, so she wasn't gallivanting around the front lines in full plate or anything like that, and since that meant I didn't need super high HP or strength, I could afford an unusual stat distribution. My DM let me use the trap finder campaign trait to match her background, even though we weren't doing the appropriate AP, and there was some other trait that let me key one of the face skills to wisdom, I believe. I think he might have been using drawbacks, as well, so I may have had two face-skill-to-wis traits. I'd have to dig out her character sheet to be sure.

She wasn't as good as a true skillmonkey class could be, obviously, but it wasn't a high-op or high level campaign, so she did pretty decently as the party scout. I'm still not really sure what I would have done to increase her roguish functionality if we had continued that game.

[tadkins]

I feel like I'm derailing the thread a bit, but to be brief: the campaign ended unfortunately quickly, and I never planned the build out much further than we got; but to the point we got to, she was a straight paladin with the tortured crusader archetype, meaning she got 4+Int skill points; I didn't dump Int, put my FCBs into skill points, and since my DM at the time was using the background skills system, she actually wound up pretty skilled. She was an archer, so she wasn't gallivanting around the front lines in full plate or anything like that, and since that meant I didn't need super high HP or strength, I could afford an unusual stat distribution. My DM let me use the trap finder campaign trait to match her background, even though we weren't doing the appropriate AP, and there was some other trait that let me key one of the face skills to wisdom, I believe. I think he might have been using drawbacks, as well, so I may have had two face-skill-to-wis traits. I'd have to dig out her character sheet to be sure.

She wasn't as good as a true skillmonkey class could be, obviously, but it wasn't a high-op or high level campaign, so she did pretty decently as the party scout. I'm still not really sure what I would have done to increase her roguish functionality if we had continued that game.

We didn't start this thread derailing, so...

But anyway, yeah it sounds like you built the paladin well. You made her an archer, you selected appropriate traits, and your class combo made sense for your rather unique character. You might have found an appropriate PrC if your game went on longer.

So yes, there is a point to building around your character concept. I simply don't feel like I deserved the crap I got for wanting to build around mine. I still think it'd look weird if I built a character that spent his teenage years as a gladiatorial slave only to make it a druid. It would be weird if I built a peaceful geologist character that was a cleric with the air and war domains. And I don't think it was such a bad thing for looking at an archetype that seemed interesting to what I wanted to build.

[Florian]

@tadkins:

PF somehow is not the best go-to system, when it comes to actual character development, at least when said development is based on actual experience, aka. adventures and campaigns.
Personally, I find that PF1 works best for very long and involved campaigns centered around the character, with no much room for change, as in, one of the old epics, like Ulysses or such.

But it´s give and take. To stick with the class guide, Black Blade means Black Blade on both sides of the gm screen and that is that.

[Ellrin]

So yes, there is a point to building around your character concept. I simply don't feel like I deserved the crap I got for wanting to build around mine. I still think it'd look weird if I built a character that spent his teenage years as a gladiatorial slave only to make it a druid. It would be weird if I built a peaceful geologist character that was a cleric with the air and war domains. And I don't think it was such a bad thing for looking at an archetype that seemed interesting to what I wanted to build.

Oh, I wasn't saying what you were doing was wrong, and obviously you want to pick mechanical options that suit your idea, just that you can find mechanical support for those ideas in unexpected places, and that sometimes picking mechanical options that don't support those ideas can throw relief on other elements of your character.

And a nature fang druid would probably be a good option for a former gladiator turned druid. Those slayer talents can be used to pick up lots of good close combat options, including ranger combat styles and extra combat feats to support some of the more exotic melee styles.

[tadkins]

Oh, I wasn't saying what you were doing was wrong

No, you weren't. That other guy was though with that passive-aggressive post and I was simply defending my actions.

[Kurald Galain]

Added Authoritative Spell (blue, and likely to be banned in PFS), Blissful spell (green), Chaos Reigns (green), Grasping Tail (green), Wanderer's Fortune (blue).

Looking over the Planar Adventures spells,

• Anywhere But Here is a funny escape button, but its touch range makes it impractical to actually use when needed.
• Bestow Planar Infusion way too situational because it only works ON the plane in question.
• Diminish Resistance is not bad, but since it allows a saving throw, switching to a different energy type is probably better.
• Ether Step is a hard counter to any one attack or spell, although it costs you your next turn. Decent as a panic button.
• Infuse Self is a low-key polymorph spell that lasts much longer than other polymorphs. You basically get +1 to hit and damage, darkvision, and resist 5 to the element of your choice, with a good duration. Not bad. You can also get a bonus to perception (Aasimar), poison and mind saves (aphorite), or saves against almost undead tricks (duskwalker).

Also from Heroes of the Fringe, an alternate racial ability is +1 to all saves for elves.

[chrisp]

Added Authoritative Spell (blue, and likely to be banned in PFS), Blissful spell (green), Chaos Reigns (green), Grasping Tail (green), Wanderer's Fortune (blue).

First of all an amazing guide. Thank you for your work in writing it, and in maintaining it.

I am curious about an Eldritch Scion build, and have a cert for pfs play that would let me play a merfolk. Seems a beautiful race for an E.S. Thoughts?

Second, has there been any resolution on the question of Improved spell recall?

Third, since the rules that ISR would get replaced by Spell recall, would there be any advantage in a 1-2 level dip into a prepared caster class.

Such as Elder Mythos Cultist Cleric, Feyspeaker Druid or Magical Knack Paladin?

[Kurald Galain]

Thank you

merfolk. Seems a beautiful race for an E.S. Thoughts?

Looks good, as long as you take Stongtail so you can actually walk.

Second, has there been any resolution on the question of Improved spell recall?

I'm not sure what question you mean?

Third, since the rules that ISR would get replaced by Spell recall, would there be any advantage in a 1-2 level dip into a prepared caster class.

Spell recall only recalls Magus spells. So I'm curious what advantage you're looking at.

[chrisp]

Thank you


Looks good, as long as you take Stongtail so you can actually walk.


I'm not sure what question you mean?


Spell recall only recalls Magus spells. So I'm curious what advantage you're looking at.

Ah. Indeed. NM = )

Authoritative: Beautiful indeed.

[chrisp]

Hmm..

What do you think of Feyspeaker as a one level dip for an eldritch scion / staff magus.

With the idea of using an oaken staff.

Alternately, I would love to find a way to add a single druid spell.. but I haven't found away.

[Kurald Galain]

What do you think of Feyspeaker as a one level dip for an eldritch scion / staff magus.

With the idea of using an oaken staff.

That's a pretty nice combo, yes. The main downside is that Naturebound doesn't get the enchant weapon ability, and that the Staff Magus's defense depends on your (low) enhancement bonus.

I still don't see the point of the oaken staff though. Staffs are massively overpriced for what they do.

Alternately, I would love to find a way to add a single druid spell.. but I haven't found away.

Magaambyan Arcana trait, Aquatic Elf race, or the Nine Warriors Edition tome may be able to help. But if you're looking for Shillelagh especially, then I don't see any options other than dipping.

[chrisp]

I still don't see the point of the oaken staff though. Staffs are massively overpriced for what they do.

Generally, I agree with you.
However, specifically for the Eldritch Scion (+/- Staff Magus) there are some amazing exceptions.

spark Staff gives you the ability to cast intensified shocking grasp for only 2 charges ... thats 5 times a day with no increase in casting time. Theoretically, you could save spell slots, since you only need one of those slots to charge it. At level 10, you don't actually need *any* of the slots, since you can use staff mastery to charge.

Staff of the Master- again ability to apply a metamagic feat at no increase in time. Plus some useful spells - plus, you can get it from abyssal, shadow, naga or undead, making a good fit. Way of leveraging spell slots.

Same sort of logic for Staff of Minor Arcana, and ember staff, but not as compelling.

Oaken Staff: The tiny trick is that you could cast shillelagh, enlarge person, and hand the staff off to someone else. At which point its a +2 spell storing weapon. So its roughly 18K right there. Bit too expensive, but if you're going to seeker level probably worth it.

[Kurald Galain]

However, specifically for the Eldritch Scion (+/- Staff Magus) there are some amazing exceptions. spark Staff gives you the ability to cast intensified shocking grasp for only 2 charges ... thats 5 times a day with no increase in casting time.

Ok, that's a fair point. You can spend an arcana on Wand Wielder (to use it in spell combat), and spend 12000 gp on a staff to use Intensified SG. The alternative is to spend a feat on Spontaneous Metafocus and one on Intensify Spell. The latter comes online earlier (since you can't afford the Spark Staff until level 8 or so) and allows you to e.g. add Spell Storing or Menacing to your quarterstaff.

Vampiric Touch doesn't really need the metamagic (end it goes down to twice a day if you're adding Empower or something), and I'm not really seeing the point of the other staves because they don't include the metamagic at all. Note that you don't need any particular bloodline, because Staff Magus can recharge any staff from his pool points.

Oaken Staff: The tiny trick is that you could cast shillelagh, enlarge person, and hand the staff off to someone else. At which point its a +2 spell storing weapon. So its roughly 18K right there. Bit too expensive, but if you're going to seeker level probably worth it.

If you want to buff your allies, there are much better ways. At seeker level, you can safely assume that your allies have their own +2 weapons or better. Spell storing q'staff is way cheaper than an Oaken Staff, too.

[chrisp]

Ok, that's a fair point. You can spend an arcana on Wand Wielder (to use it in spell combat), and spend 12000 gp on a staff to use Intensified SG. The alternative is to spend a feat on Spontaneous Metafocus and one on Intensify Spell. The latter comes online earlier (since you can't afford the Spark Staff until level 8 or so) and allows you to e.g. add Spell Storing or Menacing to your quarterstaff.

I'd argue earlier, but no matter. My usual rule of thumb is around 10000 gp for a feat. So this is slightly above it. But in a feat starved build, might be worth it. Plus you will get significant additional benefit from wand wielder - its not as if it were a tax.

I'm not really seeing the point of the other staves because they don't include the metamagic at all. Note that you don't need any particular bloodline, because Staff Magus can recharge any staff from his pool points.

Doesn't the exact wording of magical lineage and wayang suggest that you could cast empowered vampiric touch three times for no extra charges, no extra casting time? But I agree with you - the cost is too high.

Regarding the bloodlines: What I was saying is that Eldritch Scion gets limited spells known. Staffs can expand the spells you can cast.

Regarding Staff of Minor arcana: it's around a 20% discount, with the ability to cast magic missiles, if you want to have a combat familiar.

If you want to buff your allies, there are much better ways. At seeker level, you can safely assume that your allies have their own +2 weapons or better. Spell storing q'staff is way cheaper than an Oaken Staff, too.

Yes, I have to concede this point. I was looking for a way for a combat familiar.. here little buddy. But this avenue is not going to pan out.