Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus

[Serafina]

A decent way around this is to use a Gun for your ranged Spell Strike. That way, it'll still target touch AC and whether you deliver with spell strike or not won't make a difference for hitting.
We wrote a mini-guide on that here (and probably ought to update it at some point, though what it says is still valid).

[Crimson_Crow]

Yes, the concept of Eldricht gunslinger is awesome!

[Kurald Galain]

That's similar to how a card caster is probably better off not using cards, or that a staff magus has little reason to use a staff at low level. Funny how some of those names and descriptions work out in practice.

[aglondier]

Just a quick question about spellstrike. A full attack with Power Attack would work with Spell Combat just fine, as far as I can tell. My question is, would Power Attack apply to the additional attack from Spellstrike?

[Kurald Galain]

Just a quick question about spellstrike. A full attack with Power Attack would work with Spell Combat just fine, as far as I can tell. My question is, would Power Attack apply to the additional attack from Spellstrike?

Yes. Power Attack applies to all attacks until the start of your next turn. It doesn't matter if those are part of a full attack, of cleave, of spellstrike, opportunity attacks, or something else.

[Aldrakan]

Hey I think I found a thing: Dance of Chains

I'm not sure I'd call it...good...but it might be worth mentioning.

Pros: Dex-to-damage, 2d4 base weapon damage, +5 feet of reach on your turn, you could switch to 2-handed for a +4 bonus to disarm, +2 to trip

Cons: Two feat prerequisite (weapon finesse and chain mastery), requires spiked chain proficiency, crit range is 20, everyone you meet thinks you're a pain-obsessed weirdo


Possible uses:
I don't know maybe a maneuver/debuff magus? You could also pick up Zon-Kuthon's divine fighting technique to add sickened to your shaken fatigued entangled frostbite debuff stack, eventually throw a nauseate too, though the DC will be low.

Variant multiclass monk to get a ki pool at level 11 to pick up kyton cut then get kyton shield for a sweet +6 shield bonus only costs 7 feats the vicious enchantment and getting 15 wisdom I'm joking.

[Kurald Galain]

Hey I think I found a thing: Dance of Chains

The main catch here is that this feat doesn't work when fighting with multiple weapons, and spell combat counts as that. Any combo that doesn't work with spell combat is probably not a good deal for the Magus.

I don't know maybe a maneuver/debuff magus?

I'd say a whip is easier and gets bigger reach. Maneuver/debuff builds are not about the damage or crit range, anyway.

[Aldrakan]

The main catch here is that this feat doesn't work when fighting with multiple weapons, and spell combat counts as that. Any combo that doesn't work with spell combat is probably not a good deal for the Magus.

Ugh you're certain? I was thinking the dealbreaker for fencing/slashing grace was the "any time another hand is occupied" which Dance of Chains lacks.
So Spell Combat's "this functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast" catches Dance of Chains' "lose these benefits while fighting with multiple weapons", but not Dervish Dance's "You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand" because you're fighting with the spell as an extra "weapon" but not carrying it.

Yeah if it doesn't work with spell combat I withdraw the suggestion, that was the only thing that made it okay.

[Kitsuneymg]

The main catch here is that this feat doesn't work when fighting with multiple weapons, and spell combat counts as that. Any combo that doesn't work with spell combat is probably not a good deal for the Magus.


I'd say a whip is easier and gets bigger reach. Maneuver/debuff builds are not about the damage or crit range, anyway.

How does spell combat count as multiple weapons? The phrase is “much like two weapon fighting” which is, as far as I can tell, meaningless as rules since “much like” isn’t given any context for what is the same and what isn’t. The ability then goes on to explain that you take a -2 and can’t wield a weapon in your off hand (plain language: much like you were fighting with a spell,) but no where does it ever say you count as fighting with two weapons or that the spell counts as a weapon. Did I miss an faq?

[Kurald Galain]

How does spell combat count as multiple weapons? The phrase is “much like two weapon fighting” which is, as far as I can tell, meaningless as rules since “much like” isn’t given any context for what is the same and what isn’t.

The very sentence you quote continues to give exactly that context (i.e. "the off-hand weapon is a spell").

[Kitsuneymg]

The very sentence you quote continues to give exactly that context (i.e. "the off-hand weapon is a spell").

Full sentence for reference.

“This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast.”

My reading of this sentence is similar to “this is kinda like two-weapon fighting with a spell as the off hand weapon, but you’ll need to read the following lines to get the actual rules text.” I do not read this as “this is two-weapon fighting with the exception that instead of a normal weapon, you are wielding a spell as a weapon.”

Something being “much like” another thing implies that it is not that other thing, merely similar. So spell combat is not “two weapon fighting, but the off hand weapon is a spell.” It’s just like/similar to that.

The following text then tells us that you must a have free hand. It also says you take a -2 to hit.

If you read this as my first interpretation, the ability isn’t dysfunctional and you can clearly see the parallels between spell combat and twf with the spell being the second weapon. You can’t otherwise TWF or use a shield or hold something in that hand. You take a -2 to hit. Kinda like TWF.

If you read this as “you are twf with a spell as your off hand weapon.” Then your off hand isn’t free. It’s wielding a spell. So you can’t use spell combat. Which is dysfunctional, imo. Much like (heh) Monkey Lunge is dysfunctional as written.

I can see why people think it’s two weapon fighting with a spell, but I don’t really see how that belief survives reading the ability a second time. I do read tech specs as part of my day job, so it’s possible that I’m over reading this.

It’s also possible that Paizo’s team threw a slapdash “mental shortcut” they used to remember what penalties and restriction spell combat had as a first line, with the intent that the rest of the lines would tell you what it actually does.

Edit: if this is TWF, then, unless you have the feat TWF, you take the normal -4/-8 penalties on top of -2 for spell combat. If you do have TWF feat, then it’s merely a -4/-4. And I doubt that was intended in any reading of spell combat.

[Crimson_Crow]

I'm with Kistuneymg on this one. Spell combat is a full-round action and looks like TWF but isn't TWF. A spell isn't a weapon and that's it. In fact if you don't allow it, then Dervish dance should also be off limit for spell combat.
Lastly, remember that Slashing grace & fencing grace were put off limit by an errata, so as long as there is no erratum about Dance of chains, it should be okay

[Kurald Galain]

In fact if you don't allow it, then Dervish dance should also be off limit for spell combat.

You can't use Dervish Dance when "carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand", which you are not doing when using spell combat. You can't use Dance of Chains when "fighting with multiple weapons", which you are.

[GumboPorridge]

Greensting Slayer - This is laughably bad. Instead of your weapon enchantment ability for +X/+X the whole combat, you get to deal +Xd6 damage once, and your pool point is wasted if your attack misses. And you can take a ridiculously situational arcana to re-target darkness spells. Best avoid this one.


First time poster, so I don't know if this has been asked yet.

Why avoid this Archetype?
For a Dex-build, wouldn't it be beneficial to get Evasion/Improved Evasion for heavier armors where the Dex bonus would be largely useless? I understand losing the weapon enhancement with the arcane pool kind of sucks, but those AP points could go toward various arcana.

[QuadraticGish]

Any ideas for synergy with Runic Charge? It looks like it could have some fun applications.

[Kurald Galain]

For a Dex-build, wouldn't it be beneficial to get Evasion/Improved Evasion for heavier armors where the Dex bonus would be largely useless? I understand losing the weapon enhancement with the arcane pool kind of sucks, but those AP points could go toward various arcana.

Fair point; if you ignore everything else about the archetype, it lets you trade arcane pool enchant for evasion. That's still a downgrade, though.

Any ideas for synergy with Runic Charge? It looks like it could have some fun applications.

Without the feat, you can already cast a touch spell, move, and attack with it in a single turn; including spellstriking it through your 15-20 crit range scimitar. So it's not a great feat, really.

[Chaos Jackal]

For a Dex-build, wouldn't it be beneficial to get Evasion/Improved Evasion for heavier armors where the Dex bonus would be largely useless? I understand losing the weapon enhancement with the arcane pool kind of sucks, but those AP points could go toward various arcana.

Thing is, you can't really afford the loss of the enhancement ability. A magus doesn't have full BAB in the first place, and takes an additional penalty when using Spell Combat; your to-hit really suffers if you can't enchant your weapon, on top of losing out on easy DR bypassing, sustained damage, keen or speed if for whatever reason you can't buy/craft the appropriate items and all that jazz.

On top of that, the Greensting Slayer's SA is just bad (low damage, costs a point and a swift action every time you use it). If it gave you SA for a minute, even with slightly worse progression, maybe it could've been somewhat worth it, but as it is you're eating through your arcane pool really fast for rather unimpressive results. Evasion and Improved Evasion are cool, yes, but the latter comes in play rather late and the former isn't so amazing as to make up for being unable to enhance your weapon from the get-go.

I don't know if I'd call it "laughably bad", but it's certainly not a good archetype.

[Kurald Galain]

I don't know if I'd call it "laughably bad", but it's certainly not a good archetype.

Replacing arcane pool enchantment by a single sneak attack is laughably bad.

[GumboPorridge]

Thanks for the feedback. Your guide is excellent, and it has been really helpful.

I'm playing around with different combinations. I'm experimenting with a Hexcrafter/Greensting Slayer in one game, and I've got a Hexcrafter/Bladebound in another. I viewed the question more for the benefits of Evasion/Improved Evasion than for the Sneak Attack. As a standalone, yeah, the I wouldn't pick Greensting as an archetype, but in conjunction with the Hexcrafter, I think it might not be as god-awful as your initial rating. The hexes will create circumstances where foes can be denied Dex bonuses to AC and allow for the Sneak Attack damage to apply. , It should also offset some of the To Hit penalties, although I get your point with the 2/3 BAB. I figure that I'd see how both fare. Worst case, I'm building a new character.

[TotallyNotEvil]

I'm curious as to the Mindblade's rating of green. As I see it, it's nearly a straight downgrade of compared to a Bladebound Magus, which is fairly similar as far as being a Magus with a special magic weapon.

There's the fact that a simple Shaken condition will completely **** up your casting, then the fact that this would otherwise be a pretty good Heavy Armor Magus but it loses the relevant armor proficiencies. There's the fact that the concentration check to cast defensively is an absolute bitch, and ameliorating that takes money and item slots to break even with a normal magus. Then, there's your higher level class features to Psychic Access- Knowledge Pool and (especially) Improved Spell Recall are serious class features.

And it doesn't even add two spells at each interval to your spells known. Just adds to the class list.

What gives? Am I failing to see something?

[Kurald Galain]

I'm curious as to the Mindblade's rating of green. As I see it, it's nearly a straight downgrade of compared to a Bladebound Magus

Well, Bladebound is blue, so it makes sense for a downgrade to be green. But we should really compare Mindblade to the baseline Magus.

I'd say the main upside is using both the Magus and the Psychic spell lists, getting the best of both worlds here. Spontaneous casting is, to many players, an upgrade over prepared; and psychic casting tends to be more subtle and unnoticed to GMs, although RAW on this is conflicted. A lesser benefit is that you can use psychic weapon as often as you like, whereas pool enchant normally has a daily limit. And it can effectively TWF or wield a two-handed weapon, which a regular Magus doesn't do well; overall the mindblade does less spell combat (because of its concentration checks) and more TWF or reach weapon tricks.

The shaken condition is just not something that comes up a lot; it applies to all psychic casters but it doesn't really make them less popular. People don't go around saying that psychics or mesmerists suck because they can get shaken. But where most psychics or mesmerists can't really do much if they can't cast, the mindblade can still fight. HTH.

[TotallyNotEvil]

Well, Bladebound is blue, so it makes sense for a downgrade to be green. But we should really compare Mindblade to the baseline Magus.

I'd say the main upside is using both the Magus and the Psychic spell lists, getting the best of both worlds here. Spontaneous casting is, to many players, an upgrade over prepared; and psychic casting tends to be more subtle and unnoticed to GMs, although RAW on this is conflicted. A lesser benefit is that you can use psychic weapon as often as you like, whereas pool enchant normally has a daily limit. And it can effectively TWF or wield a two-handed weapon, which a regular Magus doesn't do well; overall the mindblade does less spell combat (because of its concentration checks) and more TWF or reach weapon tricks.

The shaken condition is just not something that comes up a lot; it applies to all psychic casters but it doesn't really make them less popular. People don't go around saying that psychics or mesmerists suck because they can get shaken. But where most psychics or mesmerists can't really do much if they can't cast, the mindblade can still fight. HTH.

I compared it to the Bladebound as both do the long-term magical weapon thing, but fair enough. I do think it deserves a Yellow rating instead of Green, tho.

At lower levels just summoning the blade is going to eat a lot into your pool points, even if it is permanent.

But that's relatively minor. The reason I think green is overly generous is that psychic casting, with no other aids, is kind of anti-synergistic with the core Magus feature of Spell Combat. After all, that's why we come to the Magus, right? There are other 3/4 BAB 6/9 casting classes, but no one does it quite like the Magus can.

There are ways of mitigating the downsides of psychic casting, the easiest of which only costs an item slot, 1k gold and your swift action. Swift actions which are already very crowded for the Magus, but this is nonetheless the cheapest, simplest way. The other way is to brute-force it with Concentration boosting itens, but that's yet more itens and money just to break even with a normal magus.

It also staggers its options in a very annoying way, what with TWF at 7 and THF at 13. Are you supposed to retrain your feat chain?

It's overall a deeply weird archetype, which looks painful to bring up from low levels.

[Kurald Galain]

psychic casting, with no other aids, is kind of anti-synergistic with the core Magus feature of Spell Combat. After all, that's why we come to the Magus, right?

You can often avoid concentration checks by casting while out of reach, 5' step up, then deliver your attacks; and the second turn, make your attacks, step back out of reach, then cast your spell. And from level 7, you can wield a reach weapon (there are double weapons with reach) and avoid most concentration checks that way. I'd say either of that is the cheapest, simplest way to avoid the concentration check penalty.

Are you supposed to retrain your feat chain?

No, just pick one and stick with it.