[Dreamscarred Press] Path of War: Expanded! (Discussion Thread VI)

[Extra Anchovies]

Please dont limit this stalker art to only melee weapons. I really want to make a ranged stalker that throws harrow cards, and I think adding dex to damage will really help.

Hm. That's an interesting point, there are some thrown weapons that aren't usable in melee. Maybe limit it to melee weapons and thrown weapons?

[Turion]

Really? Do disciplines other than Broken Blade have blanket discipline-weapon restrictions? Or is it just with specific maneuvers, like some of the Piercing Thunder maneuvers? I'm not entirely clear on the significance of actually using a discipline weapon with most disciplines other than for thematic purposes, so if someone could explain that aspect of the system to me I would definitely appreciate it.

*Snip*

Maneuvers performed with a favored weapon for the martial abilities’ discipline gain a +2 competence bonus to the DC of the maneuver initiated (if applicable).

Also, I don't have a citation on this, but from what I remember the "discipline weapon only" restriction on Broken Blade was supposed to be removed for the final printing; it was removed in the discipline description in the Systems and Use chapter but not in the maneuver list.

[Kaidinah]

Gunslingers cant do it until level 5, with this a Gunslinger 1/Stalker 1 can do it at level 2.



I like being able to do dex to damage with all weapons. I do. Hell I want it for Ranged as well. I just feel that this 1 Stalker Art has too much in it. If 1 Art gave Weapon Finesse and Deadly Agility and then a Second one gave the ability for it to work with non traditional weapons. THAT I feel is balanced.

Look at the Brutal Slayer. Open your eyes and look at it. It basically gets Killer's Implement for free at level 2, and still gets its 1st level stalker art. Brutal Slayer, despite this supposedly overpowered thing, is pretty balanced. We have a literal example of the kind of power this Stalker Art contains, except the example gets one more Stalker Art than a dexterity Stalker using that art.

[Callin]

And? Lvl 2 Brutal Slayer gets full Str to AC at lvl 6, big deal. Does not have anything to do with what I am talking about. Read what I wrote. I am saying that it working with NON TRADITIONAL WEAPON FINESSE WEAPONS IS THE ISSUE. There. Did I spell it out better?

All of it together as I said I feel is too much for 1 Stalker Art which is supposed to be about on par with a Feat.

[Kaidinah]

And? Lvl 2 Brutal Slayer gets full Str to AC at lvl 6, big deal. Does not have anything to do with what I am talking about. Read what I wrote. I am saying that it working with NON TRADITIONAL WEAPON FINESSE WEAPONS IS THE ISSUE. There. Did I spell it out better?

All of it together as I said I feel is too much for 1 Stalker Art which is supposed to be about on par with a Feat.

Brutal Slayer works with non-traditional weapon finesse weapons, like greatswords, bardiches, and nodachi. What is your point?

Also, "on par with one feat" is not a metric to follow, as all feats are valued differently. Also, there is a Stalker Art to get like 7 exotic weapon proficiencies at the same time. That is 7 feats. Is that overpowered?

[Extra Anchovies]

And? Lvl 2 Brutal Slayer gets full Str to AC at lvl 6, big deal. Does not have anything to do with what I am talking about. Read what I wrote. I am saying that it working with NON TRADITIONAL WEAPON FINESSE WEAPONS IS THE ISSUE. There. Did I spell it out better?

All of it together as I said I feel is too much for 1 Stalker Art which is supposed to be about on par with a Feat.

For clarity's sake, the comparison Kaidinah keeps making is that both a Brutal Slayer and a Killer's Implement Stalker use one ability score for attack, damage, AC, and Reflex saves. Brutal Slayer also gets more damage output (because of 1.5*Str to damage).

Anyways. Why are non-traditional finesse weapons an issue? I've already spelled out that using Killer's Implement with a two-handed weapon yields lower damage (and a tighter ability score budget) in exchange for higher AC. What is the issue that you see with Killer's Implement, beyond "finesse with non-finesse weapons = bad"? It would be nice if you could provide some evidence for it being an imbalanced option.

Regarding feat economy, it would be too much if it granted Weapon Finesse and Deadly Agility for all applicable weapons. But it doesn't. It's certainly stronger than a feat, but it's weaker than two feats (since, as I've explained multiple times now, allowing two-handed weapons doesn't make it any stronger of an option, and it doesn't ever apply to more than five weapon types). It's still a good option, but on the Stalker it's not a problematic one.

[Callin]

If it was broken into 2 separate Arts I would not have an issue as I keep saying. He is not drawing a comparison between Stalker Arts he is drawing a comparison between a Stalker Art and a Variant Class Ability. Class Abilities should be defining and should be pretty powerful. It also takes till 6th level before it kicks into full power. Apples to Oranges as far as I can see.

Brutal Slayer works with non-traditional weapon finesse weapons, like greatswords, bardiches, and nodachi. What is your point?

You mean like Strength is supposed to do?

I am also not looking into Damage Outputs. Damage can be upped so much with many things that its not even an issue.

[ATalsen]

I'm pretty OK with Stalkers getting Dex to damage on thrown weapons.... not so much long bows.

I think most people know this if they think about it, but I wanted to illustrate it anyway.

Deadly Agility doesn’t provide Dex to damage, it replaces Strength, so you have to have Strength to damage for Deadly Agility to provide any benefit.

Archers get Strength to Damage via Composite Longbows, which require the strength used or there’s a penalty to hit:
“If your Strength bonus is less than the strength rating of the composite bow, you can't effectively use it, so you take a –2 penalty on attacks with it.”

SO: For Archers to benefit from this stalker art, they must continually take a -2 to their to-hit.

Put that way, is that unbalanced?

[Kaidinah]

If it was broken into 2 separate Arts I would not have an issue as I keep saying. He is not drawing a comparison between Stalker Arts he is drawing a comparison between a Stalker Art and a Variant Class Ability. Class Abilities should be defining and should be pretty powerful. It also takes till 6th level before it kicks into full power. Apples to Oranges as far as I can see.


You mean like Strength is supposed to do?

I am also not looking into Damage Outputs. Damage can be upped so much with many things that its not even an issue.

I was making the comparison that through a normal stalker expending 1 highly valuable Stalker Art, they can have an ability almost as good as the Brutal Slayers (Since the Brutal Slayer works with all weapons, not 1+1/5 levels worth of weapons.).

Literally, they can have the same ability score array. The Brutal Slayer gets buffed by using a -2 dex race, meanwhile the dex stalker still wants 13 strength to get the most out of "non-standard finessable weapons."

So, they can have their respective main stats contribute to attack, damage, AC, and Reflex saves. Except the Brutal Slayer gets better carrying capacity.

In other words, the base Stalker with a dex focus can be an almost as awesome Brutal Slayer, at the cost of being behind them 1 Stalker Art.

It is not apples to oranges. This is gala to granny smith.

[tekevil]

Kaidinah is looking at how this impacts the overall character, not how it compares to Stalker Arts.

Edit:basically I see this Stalker Art as a Bandaid to make Stalkers more viable until we finally get errata/rework months or even years down the line.

[Callin]

And I agree its a step in the right direction. I feel its too much for 1 Art though. Also a bad precedent setter but it is what it is.

[Extra Anchovies]

SO: For Archers to benefit from this stalker art, they must continually take a -2 to their to-hit.

Or, ya know, put a 12 into Strength, buy a +1 strength rating composite bow and enjoy their full Dex to damage.

Put that way, is that unbalanced?

Yes.

[tekevil]

Gonna agree with Anchovies.

Under no cirmumstances should bows get dex to damage.

[ATalsen]

Or, ya know, put a 12 into Strength, buy a +1 strength rating composite bow and enjoy their full Dex to damage.

Not the way I read Composite Longbows:

"A composite longbow can be made with a high strength rating to take advantage of an above-average Strength score; this feature allows you to add your Strength bonus to damage, up to the maximum bonus indicated for the bow."

Deadly Agility (Combat)
"You may add your Dexterity modifier in place of your Strength modifier when...determining additional damage inflicted upon a successful attack."

Therefore:
"A composite longbow can be made with a high strength rating to take advantage of an above-average Strength score; this feature allows you to add your Strength Dexterity bonus to damage, up to the maximum bonus indicated for the bow."

---

I'm not arguing in favor of bows getting anything, I'm simply pointing out that any gain from the way this works currently is coupled with a -2 attack penalty, due to the wording of composite longbows.

[Morcleon]

Gonna agree with Anchovies.

Under no cirmumstances should bows get dex to damage.

Why though? Why is ranged not allowed to have nice things? (Also, this is assuming the Dex replaces Str, not is added to damage along with Str)

[tekevil]

I cant twll if you're joking or not, but archers already have all the nicest toys.

[Kaidinah]

Why though? Why is ranged not allowed to have nice things? (Also, this is assuming the Dex replaces Str, not is added to damage along with Str)

Because ranged already has the nicest things, and still got incredibly nice things in PoW. Ranged full-attack spam is good, always has been good, and thanks to a 1st level Tempest Gale stance, has one of its few weaknesses removed. Wind Wall and Fickle Winds basically aren't a problem.

[Turion]

Why though? Why is ranged not allowed to have nice things? (Also, this is assuming the Dex replaces Str, not is added to damage along with Str)

We're just talking about damage, though, which bows already can do quite well (via extra attacks, Deadly Aim, Clustered Shots, and various other things). I'd be fine with it on a crossbow, personally, since crossbow characters don't really have a way to increase their damage aside from Bolt Ace and Deadly Aim (and they need extra resources to function reliably anyways), but when it comes to DPR, longbows really don't need the help.

[Anlashok]

Because ranged already has the nicest things

If by "ranged" you mean composite longbows. Shortbows, crossbows, guns for anyone that isn't a gunslinger (and even then they don't particularly stand out without using some specific tricks) and thrown weapons are all less than impressive.

[Morcleon]

I cant twll if you're joking or not, but archers already have all the nicest toys.

I'm coming from a 3.5e background primarily, so I'm not sure how much PF changed with regards to melee having better damage than ranged. I'm pretty sure melee is still less MAD with regards to only needing Str for attack and damage, whereas ranged would need Str for damage and Dex for attack. Plus, ranged essentially requires PBS and Precise Shot unless you want to skewer your own allies.

Because ranged already has the nicest things, and still got incredibly nice things in PoW. Ranged full-attack spam is good, always has been good, and thanks to a 1st level Tempest Gale stance, has one of its few weaknesses removed. Wind Wall and Fickle Winds basically aren't a problem.

What are said nice things? Also, yes, their weaknesses have been lessened. But melee also gets a lot of nice things in PoW.

[Turion]

I'm coming from a 3.5e background primarily, so I'm not sure how much PF changed with regards to melee having better damage than ranged. I'm pretty sure melee is still less MAD with regards to only needing Str for attack and damage, whereas ranged would need Str for damage and Dex for attack. Plus, ranged essentially requires PBS and Precise Shot unless you want to skewer your own allies.



What are said nice things? Also, yes, their weaknesses have been lessened. But melee also gets a lot of nice things in PoW.

Deadly Aim (basically ranged Power Attack), Clustered Shots (only check for DR once per full attack), changes to Manyshot (now gives a second arrow in the first shot of a full attack), Point Blank Master (fighter only, threaten with a bow), Zen Archer (monk archetype, allows you to flurry with a bow, gives Wis to attack, several other goodies), Gravity Bow (spell, increases the die size on bows), more ways to deal with DR, an item enhancement that scales a composite bow's rating to the user's strength, and a few other odds and ends. Ranged combat is really quite good in Pathfinder.

[Extra Anchovies]

We're just talking about damage, though, which bows already can do quite well (via extra attacks, Deadly Aim, Clustered Shots, and various other things). I'd be fine with it on a crossbow, personally, since crossbow characters don't really have a way to increase their damage aside from Bolt Ace and Deadly Aim (and they need extra resources to function reliably anyways), but when it comes to DPR, longbows really don't need the help.

I think that Killer's Implements shouldn't be applicable to any non-thrown ranged weapons, both for consistency's sake and to avoid stepping on the Gunslinger/Bolt Ace's toes.

I'm coming from a 3.5e background primarily, so I'm not sure how much PF changed with regards to melee having better damage than ranged. I'm pretty sure melee is still less MAD with regards to only needing Str for attack and damage, whereas ranged would need Str for damage and Dex for attack. Plus, ranged essentially requires PBS and Precise Shot unless you want to skewer your own allies.

Ranged is feat-heavy but is by far the most viable and highest-damage combat style in Pathfinder. It's also rather feat-heavy (PBS, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, and Manyshot is the standard setup), but the absurd amounts of damage it can output is worth the investment.

Also, Solar Wind has crazy amounts of damage. Too much, IMO.

[Kaidinah]

What are said nice things? Also, yes, their weaknesses have been lessened. But melee also gets a lot of nice things in PoW.

Big changes from the 3.5 > PF transition:
Deadly Aim, which is ranged power attack.
Manyshot now makes your first arrow do double damage in a full attack.
There is a feat that allows all your ranged attacks to add their damage together before applying DR.
Rapid shot is still good.

Basically, before PoW, ranged in pathfinder was so ridiculously better than melee, that PoW managed to equalize them (probably? I think a ranged character might still be better, especially with PoW stuff.)

Tempest Gale discipline has a 1st level stance to get through wind walls and fickle winds.

Tempest Gale has a 3rd level stance to get your initiator modifier to ranged damage rolls as well.

[Turion]

I think that Killer's Implements shouldn't be applicable to any non-thrown ranged weapons, both for consistency's sake and to avoid stepping on the Gunslinger/Bolt Ace's toes.

-snip-

I'm inclined to agree, but more because wording it to say "all weapons except bows" is kinda jarring. I'm kinda against allowing thrown weapons for the same reason.

The options for actually doing damage with a crossbow should go beyond "play a Bolt Ace" and "play a Hawkguard," honestly; it's a cool weapon, but it takes a disproportionate amount of effort to make work (4 feats to make a heavy crossbow even viable, and it's still doing crap damage without investing heavily in maneuvers or Bolt Ace).

Honestly, we'd probably be better off with a separate option for ranged combat, possibly broken down by combat style (e.g. a feat/item/art for crossbow users, a feat/item/art for throwers, etc...). It's easier to predict and control damage output that way, and it looks neater on paper.

[tekevil]

I would be ok with a Stalker Art to be awesome with throwing.

Something like

"This Stalker art gives your Initiator modifier to damage when throwing a weapon. Additionally Thrashing Dragon maneuvers may be applied to thrown attacks"

[Elricaltovilla]

I would be ok with a Stalker Art to be awesome with throwing.

Something like

"This Stalker art gives your Initiator modifier to damage when throwing a weapon. Additionally Thrashing Dragon maneuvers may be applied to thrown attacks"

There's already several thrashing dragon maneuvers that work with thrown weapons

[tekevil]

But more is always cool :)

I know I'd love to use the 2wf Thrashing Dragon maneuvers and Stances while dual wielding Shuriken pouches!

[ghanjrho]

There's already several thrashing dragon maneuvers that work with thrown weapons

Not to mention the entire Steel Serpent discipline.

[tekevil]

Not to mention the entire Steel Serpent discipline.

That's not saying much tbh.

Edit: Just double checked and just about every maneuver and stance in Thrashing Dragon for 2wf specifies melee. Including the Thrashing Dragon Stance.

[Eloelle]

Animus Adept
I love this PrC. Here I will nitpick it or make a fool of myself (probably both!)

Saves: It's a prestige class, so shouldn't it start at 1.0 in the Good save instead of 2.5?

Animus Pool: Since it's required to have an animus pool to enter the class in the first place, wouldn't it be clearer to start off by saying how it changes your existing anima pool (add your Animus Adept level to your Mystic Level, or replace Tap Animus with Extra Animus and the new anima pool)? Or is it supposed to add a second anima pool for Mystics?

Glyphs: General: A lot of them target 'allies' but might be useful to use on enemies - for example, using Brilliant Aura to make someone easier for your ranged attackers to hit, or Corpse Strength to make an enemy unable to be healed by positive energy. I assume that's not possible since it doesn't say what type of saving throw would be involved, but it would be neat if that was an option!

Also: can you only activate one glyph per martial strike? Since it's a free action, it could be argued that you can activate an unlimited number of them as long as you have targets and Anima remaining.

Energy type: what happens if you change active energy types while you have a glyph active? e.g. elemental weapons. Do all active elemental glyphs change when you do that, or do they keep the energy type that they had when you activated them?

Basic Glyphs
Blinding Blade: Grants the ally a chance to temporarily blind an opponent when struck with a critical hit or a martial strike, or when using deadly strikes or sneak attack; a successful Reflex save negates the blinding condition.
1) Blind an opponent when struck or blind an opponent when your ally strikes them?
2) Does this happen only once, or every time they hit with a (critical, martial strike, deadly strike, sneak attack)? Does the blind last until the glyph expires? The end of the encounter?
Suggested revision: Whenever the affected ally strikes a foe with a martial strike, deadly strike, sneak attack, or confirmed critical strike, the foe must make a reflex save or be blinded for one round.

Brilliant Aura: As written, melee attackers with a reach greater than 15ft (e.g. Enlarged person with a reach weapon) still suffer the penalty; intentional? Either way, it seems weirdly mismatched that the effect has a radius of 15ft when the Light spell has a radius of 20ft/40ft.

Dead Steel: Does it heal undead or just do nothing? I assume nothing but some GMs might assume otherwise.

Evasive Armor: Grants the ally of this a single use of the evasion class feature on the next Reflex save they make until the end of the encounter.
How come this has a different duration compared to all the other ones?
Suggested revision: When the ally is affected by an effect which allows a partial effect (such as half damage) on a successful Reflex saving throw, if they succeed, they are instead completely unaffected. This glyph expires after one successful Reflex saving throw, or its normal duration, whichever happens first.

Flowing Blade: Grants the ally the ability to ignore a target’s miss chance for the duration of this glyph.
Does this mean concealment less than total? Does it mean to include total concealment? Does it mean ignoring Mirror Image? 'miss chance' is not specific enough.
Suggested revision: Grants the ally the ability to automatically succeed on rolls to pierce concealment.
Even then, that's pretty powerful for an ability available at level 6 - maybe it should let them roll twice, or ignore concealment less than total, or something.

Ghost Armor: Grants the ally the ghost touch property on worn armor and shield for the duration of the ???.
I assume it's just missing the word 'glyph' at the end there. Still, professionalism!

Shadowmeld: Grants the ally a layer of protective, smoky shadows that grants a 20% miss chance on enemy attacks.
I like the bit of flavour but should just call it Concealment.
Suggested revision: Gives the ally a layer of protective, smoky shadows that grants Concealment (enemy attacks have a 20% chance to miss).

Advanced Glyphs
Corpse Strength: Grants the ally a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, gain Necromantic Affinity while this is in place.
Should specify that it's a feat. Also, this is a run-on sentence (Maybe not the first D: )
Suggested revision: Grants the ally a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, and they have the Necromantic Affinity feat for the duration of the glyph.
On second thought, maybe it's better to just list the effects. Granting feats temporarily is tricky business, especially feats that are in campaign supplements (inner sea world guide according to PFSRD).
Suggested revision #2: Grants the ally a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, and a +2 bonus on saving throws made to resist spells and effects that utilize negative energy, cause negative levels, or cause ability damage, ability drain, or ability penalties. In addition, for the duration of the glyph, damage caused by inflict spells heals them as if they were an undead creature, but they also take damage from cure spells.

Death Shield: Grants the ally energy resistance to negative energy damage equal to the animus adept’s initiator level and a +4 resistance bonus to saves vs energy drain and negative energy effects.
A resistance bonus? Everyone's going to have a cloak of resistance by this point. It's thematically appropriate but it should probably be either untyped or a different type. Death Ward is a morale bonus for example.

Illusionary State: The ally is under the effects of a mirror image spell, using the animus adept’s level as the spell’s caster level.
Seems like it should be the Animus Adept's Initiator Level? This is the only one that doesn't scale with initiator level otherwise.

Spiritual Anchor: When cast on an enemy, this glyph inflicts a dimensional anchor effect on the target.
No save, no attack roll? (Dimensional Anchor the spell is no-save but a ranged touch attack)

Master Glyphs
Dispelling Burn: This glyph acts as a targeted greater dispel magic on the target’s beneficial ongoing effects and each effect dispelled inflicts 1d4 points of damage per level of the effect dispelled.
"beneficial" needs more explanation since it's not part of the default behaviour of Dispel Magic.
Suggested revision: This glyph acts as a targeted greater dispel magic, using your initiator level as the caster level, except that it only dispels effects considered 'harmless' and each effect dispelled inflicts 1d4 points of damage per level of the effect dispelled.

Drowning Curse: Causes the victim to choke and gasp when cast on a victim, nauseating and rendering them unable to speak on a failed Fortitude save; target may make the save each round to negate the glyph.
This needs to be more specific in general (lol)
Suggested revision: Causes the victim to choke and gasp, rendering them nauseated and unable to speak or perform the verbal components of spells. They may attempt a fortitude save each round, including the first; if successful, the glyph expires and they may act normally that round.

Gravity of Iron: Target is under the effects of a hold monster spell (caster level equal to your initiator level) and knocked prone on a failed Reflex save when this glyph is applied; the target must be wearing ferrous metal armor or be composed of metal to apply this glyph.
Again, this is different enough from the original effect that you might as well just spell it out. Also, the ferrous metal armor thing is cool and apropos, but seems kind of unnecessarily specific? Also this kind of effect seems more like a fortitude save than a reflex save.
This glyph can only be applied to targets who are wearing metal armor or are made of metal. The target is paralyzed and knocked prone unless it succeeds on a Fortitude save. It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech. Each round on its turn, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to end the paralysis effect. This is a full-round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. A flying creature falls. A swimmer can't swim and may drown.

Incandescent Array: The ally who bears this glyph emits light as the daylight spell in a dazzling array of colors, and is protected by a 50% miss chance due to the brilliant light.
Again with the 'miss chance'. Does it apply to spells?
Suggested revision: The ally who bears this glyph emits light as the daylight spell in a dazzling array of colors, and attackers have a 50% chance to miss the ally as if under total concealment. This concealment does not allow the ally to use Stealth or treat enemies as flat-footed; it only affects attacks made against them. Spells without attack rolls, and creatures which do not rely on sight to target their attacks, are unaffected.

---

Okay. Some of those suggestions/nitpicks have more meat to them than others but hopefully that will help bring the Animus Adept towards the exceptional level of polish DSP is known for!