Darths and Droids V: Thread IV Was Eaten By Dogs

[Keltest]

Leaving Yoda probably would've seemed more final. They may not have re-introduced Nute to set up the EWOCs. Etc.

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around how a technology based ghost managed to influence a stone age culture, to any degree.

[eschmenk]

New comic

I think this is an example of what the Irregulars are trying to do. It may seem like stalling, but they are riffing on something in the original movie (a tropical vine in a redwood forest). That's what the comic is about, as much as anything.

[137beth]

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around how a technology based ghost managed to influence a stone age culture, to any degree.

Makes about as much sense as in the original movie.

[SirKazum]

Makes about as much sense as in the original movie.

Honestly, IMO the only thing in Darths & Droids that doesn't make more sense than the original is the whole business with the japor snippet (which in my mind I keep calling "jade snapor"), and that's because I ignored it so thoroughly when it was first introduced that I had no idea what the hell they were talking about when they referenced it in the Ep. V reveal, and still don't.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Today's vocabulary word that Nerdo literally learned from reading a screencap webcomic about Star Wars as a roleplaying game is "liana".

Also Wikipedia says that they are sometimes found in temperate rainforests, in one of which the Endor scenes were filmed. I think. Northern California's part of the Pacific Temperate Rainforest, right?

[Peelee]

Today's vocabulary word that Nerdo literally learned from reading a screencap webcomic about Star Wars as a roleplaying game is "liana".

I choose to believe it's more common in Aussue vocab, because I'm callin' that a vine.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Actually, lianas are a specific type of plant with a general structure that features vines. Similar to ivies.

[Beneath]

Honestly, IMO the only thing in Darths & Droids that doesn't make more sense than the original is the whole business with the japor snippet (which in my mind I keep calling "jade snapor"), and that's because I ignored it so thoroughly when it was first introduced that I had no idea what the hell they were talking about when they referenced it in the Ep. V reveal, and still don't.

I don't know if there are really any clues other than the ones they mention in 1154, but it's introduced in 125.

It's not mentioned much, though, and even the clues we get look like GM fudging (like the landing platform thing).

[eschmenk]

Today's vocabulary word that Nerdo literally learned from reading a screencap webcomic about Star Wars as a roleplaying game is "liana".

Also Wikipedia says that they are sometimes found in temperate rainforests, in one of which the Endor scenes were filmed. I think. Northern California's part of the Pacific Temperate Rainforest, right?

Yes, the redwood forest in the movie is part of the Pacific Temperate Rainforest. The second picture on that page certainly looks like it shows several moss covered lianas. However, the trees aren't redwoods and the picture appears to have been taken in the state of Washington, which is North of California. [ADDED: OK, this picture was taken in the redwood forest. Also, while looking for pictures, I found out that English Ivy, which is a liana (and an invasive species), is causing problems there. I think it typically clings too tightly to one tree to be useful as a swinging vine, though.] Still, the vines in the movie probably weren't the anachronism that the comic page made it out to be.

When I saw the word in the comic, I did a quick search and looked at the dictionary definitions, which typically included something like "mostly tropical" and I didn't go any further. Thanks to your comment, though, I looked at Wikipedia and learned that liana even covers things like wild grapes! Heck, back when I was in the Boy Scouts (temperate hardwood forests), we would try to imitate Tarzan and swing from them. The stems weren't mossy or leaf covered, so they didn't look like the movie vines, though. To be fair, we didn't look much like Tarzan, either.

[137beth]

New comic. I hate it when someone rolls a bunch of dice at once and forgets which die corresponds to which thing they were rolling for.

[Lethologica]

oh nooooooo they'll never get it working

[Porthos]

"Walker, Flexes Danger"

Spoiler

Show

[137beth]

Well, they got it working.

I continue to feel like this scene drags on too long, exactly as I felt in the movie. Or, rather, the part of this scene showing the fight outside the death star felt dull--I liked the sequences with Luke and Palpatine.

[Rogar Demonblud]

You know, the Irregulars raise a good point in the commentary today. One I'd never considered before.

[Rockphed]

You know, the Irregulars raise a good point in the commentary today. One I'd never considered before.

Well, you will note that only the front guns are ever used. There are more guns on the walker than just the front ones. Maybe the Gunner is there to control the non-forward mounted guns.

[AdmiralCheez]

Well, they got it working.

I continue to feel like this scene drags on too long, exactly as I felt in the movie. Or, rather, the part of this scene showing the fight outside the death star felt dull--I liked the sequences with Luke and Palpatine.

Yeah, all of the forest segments I thought were the dragging points of the movie. I actually really liked the space battle, but it doesn't compare to the throne room scenes. Those were great.

Ironically, I'm actually kinda enjoying the forest scenes in the comic, but feel the space battle and throne room are dragging. Maybe once Luke and Vader start dueling, it will pick up.

[eschmenk]

Well, you will note that only the front guns are ever used. There are more guns on the walker than just the front ones. Maybe the Gunner is there to control the non-forward mounted guns.

Oh, is that what the "good point" was supposed to be about? I just assumed that we were supposed to think that Chewie and the Ewocs were working together to work the thing. What else were we supposed to assume?

Yeah, all of the forest segments I thought were the dragging points of the movie. I actually really liked the space battle, but it doesn't compare to the throne room scenes. Those were great.

Oh, I thought the throne room scene was painfully slow. It was like sitting and listening to someone scraping their nails on a chalkboard over and over again. There was no way I could suspend disbelief about Luke possibly switching sides and it seemed like that was all the throne room scene was about! Were we supposed to believe that Luke would "give into his anger" and that would make him switch sides? What would happen if Darth Vader was amused by something and gave into the humor? Would that make switch to the light side? The Emporer seemed pleased because he expected Luke would switch to the dark side. Why didn't that make the Emperor switch to the light side, if it was that easy to switch? The whole idea that making a side seem repulsive to Luke would cause Luke to switch to that side just didn't go over with me. And it just kept repeating and repeating. Yes, the Emperor was annoying the whole time in part because he was supposed to be annoying, but why would I want to sit through that? Just shut up dude, and stop spouting that nonsense! Luke isn't going to listen to it anyway!

Of course, a lot of other stuff was ridiculous by that point in the movie, but at least there was more variety in how the other scenes were ridiculous, so I didn't mind them as much. But maybe all that little kiddie stuff was part of the reason I found it impossible to suspend disbelief for the stuff involving Luke.

[Keltest]

Oh, is that what the "good point" was supposed to be about? I just assumed that we were supposed to think that Chewie and the Ewocs were working together to work the thing. What else were we supposed to assume?



Oh, I thought the throne room scene was painfully slow. It was like sitting and listening to someone scraping their nails on a chalkboard over and over again. There was no way I could suspend disbelief about Luke possibly switching sides and it seemed like that was all the throne room scene was about! Were we supposed to believe that Luke would "give into his anger" and that would make him switch sides? What would happen if Darth Vader was amused by something and gave into the humor? Would that make switch to the light side? The Emporer seemed pleased because he expected Luke would switch to the dark side. Why didn't that make the Emperor switch to the light side, if it was that easy to switch? The whole idea that making a side seem repulsive to Luke would cause Luke to switch to that side just didn't go over with me. And it just kept repeating and repeating. Yes, the Emperor was annoying the whole time in part because he was supposed to be annoying, but why would I want to sit through that? Just shut up dude, and stop spouting that nonsense! Luke isn't going to listen to it anyway!

Of course, a lot of other stuff was ridiculous by that point in the movie, but at least there was more variety in how the other scenes were ridiculous, so I didn't mind them as much. But maybe all that little kiddie stuff was part of the reason I found it impossible to suspend disbelief for the stuff involving Luke.

In theory, he was trying to provoke Luke into giving into his anger and attacking. He would either be killed by Vader or kill Vader, and thus rid Palpatine of one skywalker. I assume the followup plan was to bludgeon Luke into submission and make him Vader 2.0

[Rogar Demonblud]

Oh, is that what the "good point" was supposed to be about? I just assumed that we were supposed to think that Chewie and the Ewoks were working together to work the thing. What else were we supposed to assume?

For starters, you might be assuming that a bunch of stone age primitives aren't going to know how to successfully use the hyper-advanced combat vehicle they just climbed into.

[Nerd-o-rama]

In theory, he was trying to provoke Luke into giving into his anger and attacking. He would either be killed by Vader or kill Vader, and thus rid Palpatine of one skywalker. I assume the followup plan was to bludgeon Luke into submission and make him Vader 2.0

Palpatine made two mistaken assumptions, basically. He assumed Luke would be as simple to manipulate as Anakin had been (when he hadn't spent a decade grooming him, nor was he aware of nearly as many emotional levers that he could pull), and he assumed Vader would not act against him on the same attachment-based homicidal tendencies that got him where he was in the first place.

[Rockphed]

Palpatine made two mistaken assumptions, basically. He assumed Luke would be as simple to manipulate as Anakin had been (when he hadn't spent a decade grooming him, nor was he aware of nearly as many emotional levers that he could pull), and he assumed Vader would not act against him on the same attachment-based homicidal tendencies that got him where he was in the first place.

Anakin was a broken shell of a former slave who transferred all his natural maternally oriented affections to the first female who showed him kindness after leaving home. He never developed a proper sense of self, much less a proper moral character. Luke, on the other hand, was impulsive and foolhardy because his morals came into conflict with the wisdom of his elders. If Luke had walked in on Windu about to execute Palpatine, he would have had a little discussion, and then run Palpatine through with a lightsaber.

Which isn't to say that Luke didn't try to make plans and be peaceful. He had either a full xanatos gambit going in to Jabba's Palace, or he is very good at coming up with things on the fly. He tried to negotiate with Jabba, just not very successfully.

[Peelee]

Palpatine made two mistaken assumptions, basically. He assumed Luke would be as simple to manipulate as Anakin had been (when he hadn't spent a decade grooming him, nor was he aware of nearly as many emotional levers that he could pull), and he assumed Vader would not act against him on the same attachment-based homicidal tendencies that got him where he was in the first place.

Imean, none of that was set when the movie came out, so it's hard to fault him for that.

[eschmenk]

For starters, you might be assuming that a bunch of stone age primitives aren't going to know how to successfully use the hyper-advanced combat vehicle they just climbed into.

Why would that be any more ridiculous than the other stuff involving them? Little kiddies would love to see them turn the tables and wouldn't have a problem with the logic. Why else would the Ewocs have been in that scene if it wasn't to appeal to that? We had already seen that it was a two person vehicle. Each Ewoc was about a 1/2 a person, so Chewie plus two Ewocs could crew it. That would make perfect sense by little kiddie logic. We had already seen an Ewoc use a hoverbike. That was 1/2 person on a one person vehicle, which kind of worked.

[137beth]

Imean, none of that was set when the movie came out, so it's hard to fault him for that.

If you watch the movies in Machete order (IV, V, II, III, VI), then the throne room scene becomes a lot stronger because of the parallels between Anakin and Luke.

[eschmenk]

In theory, he was trying to provoke Luke into giving into his anger and attacking. He would either be killed by Vader or kill Vader, and thus rid Palpatine of one skywalker. I assume the followup plan was to bludgeon Luke into submission and make him Vader 2.0

Palpatine only wanted to get rid of Darth Vader if he could replace him with someone more potent: Luke. He wouldn't have wanted to get rid of Vader otherwise. It was all about turning Luke to the dark side.

Somehow giving into his anger (and killing Vader?) would have caused Luke to automatically switch to the dark side and obey the Emperor. (Yet, since Vader was a threat to the Rebellion and Luke wasn't in a position to take him prisoner, killing Vader would have been a very rational thing to do.) I guess the Emperor could have had some magic that required anyone who killed Vader to replace him, but if so, that was never explained.

No, the Emperor didn't have a backup plan to bludgeon Luke into submission. At that point, the Emperor was simply pissed because his plan failed, so he was trying to kill Luke.

Imean, none of that was set when the movie came out, so it's hard to fault him for that.

Really, it's more that those excuses weren't available at the time, so the audience wasn't inclined to think along those lines.

IMO, portraying the Emperor as being just plain nuts is a very effective way to parody the scene. I remember him coming across as a very annoying and disgusting nuisance, but I just couldn't imagine him succeeding.

He tried to negotiate with Jabba, just not very successfully.

For all definitions of "negotiate" that are synonyms of "mind-control."

(Or am I forgetting things? I don't remember Luke having anything to offer Jabba, but I could have forgotten. I just remember "Jedi mind tricks" not working.)

[Keltest]

Palpatine only wanted to get rid of Darth Vader if he could replace him with someone more potent: Luke. He wouldn't have wanted to get rid of Vader otherwise. It was all about turning Luke to the dark side.

Somehow giving into his anger (and killing Vader?) would have caused Luke to automatically switch to the dark side and obey the Emperor. (Yet, since Vader was a threat to the Rebellion and Luke wasn't in a position to take him prisoner, killing Vader would have been a very rational thing to do.) I guess the Emperor could have had some magic that required anyone who killed Vader to replace him, but if so, that was never explained.

No, the Emperor didn't have a backup plan to bludgeon Luke into submission. At that point, the Emperor was simply pissed because his plan failed, so he was trying to kill Luke.

I didn't say backup, I said follow-up. Youre right, the emperor's plan did fail. Neither skywalker died. If luke had given into his anger and killed Vader, it would have opened him up to the Dark Side, at which point the Emperor could capture him, force him to watch the rebels die horribly, torture him and drive him insane until he agrees to become vader 2.0

Alternatively, if he didn't give into his anger, Vader was supposed to win and just kill luke. The plan went wrong because Luke calmed down enough to not go off the deep end into the Dark Side, but Vader was still defeated.

[Lethologica]

If you watch the movies in Machete order (IV, V, II, III, VI), then the throne room scene becomes a lot stronger because of the parallels between Anakin and Luke.

Can I just order a half-hour thematic summary of II+III and skip the dreck?

[Aquillion]

If you watch the movies in Machete order (IV, V, II, III, VI), then the throne room scene becomes a lot stronger because of the parallels between Anakin and Luke.

I don't know. In a way, it kind of undermines it. This is the outlook and priorities of the Anakin we see in Episodes II and III:

1. If he gets angry, he will respond by impulsively choking people.

2. He will murder absolutely anyone, no matter what, to protect people he loves.

3. Based on his discussions with Padme, he also thinks fascism is kinda great.

He killed the Emperor because of the first two, not because he suddenly changed his political outlook or anything. If you look at his actions towards Luke for the entire second and third movies, it's pretty much "all right, I want to satisfy both my desires by saving my son and preserving the Empire's fascist state with him." And when Luke made that impossible, he was forced to go with protecting his loved ones, which he valued even higher than his desire for an authoritarian state.

But he didn't become a good person or anything. If Luke had been like "oh hey I have a bacta tank right here, let's fix you up," Vader would have responded with "excellent, now I can take you as my Sith apprentice and we can rule together as father and son like I planned."

[Rockphed]

But he didn't become a good person or anything. If Luke had been like "oh hey I have a bacta tank right here, let's fix you up," Vader would have responded with "excellent, now I can take you as my Sith apprentice and we can rule together as father and son like I planned."

Yet as he was dying he was muttering at Luke to tell his sister that he was right. I can only assume that he meant about Luke's earlier claim that he could feel the good in Vader. Yes, it would have been a long, hard row to hoe for Vader to not be an intrinsically evil overlord, but without the Emperor, I think he could have done it. Or at least he could have tried to atone for his crimes by using force lightning to power the galaxy.

Here's a question: how do power generators in Star Wars work? Do they have really angry sith chained up constantly trying to get out using force-lighting?

[Keltest]

Yet as he was dying he was muttering at Luke to tell his sister that he was right. I can only assume that he meant about Luke's earlier claim that he could feel the good in Vader. Yes, it would have been a long, hard row to hoe for Vader to not be an intrinsically evil overlord, but without the Emperor, I think he could have done it. Or at least he could have tried to atone for his crimes by using force lightning to power the galaxy.

Here's a question: how do power generators in Star Wars work? Do they have really angry sith chained up constantly trying to get out using force-lighting?

Vader cant use force lightning. depending on who you ask, its either because getting all his limbs chopped off crippled his force ability, or because shooting lightning through your life support equipment (while youre wearing it, even) is bad for you.