My pitch for a alternative Vampire game

[Anonymouswizard]

I can't think that of it would and even if it did temporarily the Kindred's body would re-set every new day and so would instantly lose the tan
Sufficiently high Viccistude would enable him to alter his skin colour though so you just got to make friends with a Tszimisce

Or just do it long enough to deal a point of damage, and never heal it

[Sith_Happens]

I can't think that of it would and even if it did temporarily the Kindred's body would re-set every new day and so would instantly lose the tan

So the character concept still works!

[Brother Oni]

Or just do it long enough to deal a point of damage, and never heal it

There's a difference between bronzed greek god and British tourist lobster red.

[Anonymouswizard]

There's a difference between bronzed greek god and British tourist lobster red.

That reminds me, I should get out of the sun.

Although it does make the Chinese ladies who come to England looking for the vampires completely jealous. Seriously, some young Chinese people think England is vampire central, must be all the lobster red British tourists.

[comicshorse]

There's a difference between bronzed greek god and British tourist lobster red.

As an Englishman may I say that I resemble that remark

[Beleriphon]

To be honest, your best bet as a Vampire is the following strategy:
1) Dominate 1: 'surrender'.
2) Dominate 3: remove all knowledge of vampires.
3) Dominate 2: 'never interact with me again'.

Or, you know Magneto drops the Golden Gate Bridge on a vampire. I mean no big deal right?

The power differential between the mutants in the X-Men movies and the vampires in VtM are enormous. Even the weakest of the mutant outshines most vampires in just straight up asskicking abilities. So what if a Nosie can turn invisible, a Venture can control minds, or a Brujah can punch dudes extra hard, Nightcrawler can teleport into the sewer at noon, grab some schlubs and teleport out making those vamps crispy critters.

If you get into werewolves you have it even worse. Wolverine is basically a WoD werewolf without any of the drawbacks, never mind that Magneto can control werewolves greatest weakness with his mind.

[Anonymouswizard]

Or, you know Magneto drops the Golden Gate Bridge on a vampire. I mean no big deal right?

The power differential between the mutants in the X-Men movies and the vampires in VtM are enormous. Even the weakest of the mutant outshines most vampires in just straight up asskicking abilities. So what if a Nosie can turn invisible, a Venture can control minds, or a Brujah can punch dudes extra hard, Nightcrawler can teleport into the sewer at noon, grab some schlubs and teleport out making those vamps crispy critters.

If you get into werewolves you have it even worse. Wolverine is basically a WoD werewolf without any of the drawbacks, never mind that Magneto can control werewolves greatest weakness with his mind.

I should point out I did make this argument, but Bloodtomb thinks that the mutant cure solves the fact that any mutants you'd want to use it on are running at at least the mid-werewolf level, and the most troublesome (Phoenix) is as close to immune as makes no difference. And without the cure a mutant in the films just flat out beats a vampire in their area of expertise, as the films left out the really unlucky mutants for those with lame powers.

You know how a Celerity 5 vampire basically destroys everyone else in combat (oWoD)? They still aren't moving as fast as Age of Ultron Quicksilver (I liked him, he was fast but just about beatable), let alone what I've heard of Days of Future Past Quicksilver.

[Beleriphon]

I should point out I did make this argument, but Bloodtomb thinks that the mutant cure solves the fact that any mutants you'd want to use it on are running at at least the mid-werewolf level, and the most troublesome (Phoenix) is as close to immune as makes no difference. And without the cure a mutant in the films just flat out beats a vampire in their area of expertise, as the films left out the really unlucky mutants for those with lame powers.

You know how a Celerity 5 vampire basically destroys everyone else in combat (oWoD)? They still aren't moving as fast as Age of Ultron Quicksilver (I liked him, he was fast but just about beatable), let alone what I've heard of Days of Future Past Quicksilver.

DofP Quicksilver disarms a room of gun totting guards after a sprinkler system goes off. The water droplets are barely moving to emphasize how fast he is going. We're talking like Pre-Crisis Flash time travel fast.

[TheCountAlucard]

Disregarding that the cure kinda stopped being a thing in the movies set after the third movie, plus the fact that it was derived from a mutant whom we see going to the mutant school after that (meaning the company making it probably can't continue to synthesize it out of his blood or however they made it), plus the fact that the end shows us that it is only temporary.

Plus, that was on Alcatraz. How the hell is a NYC (remember, the X-Men are based out of New York State) Kindred gonna get his hands on even one dose of the stuff, let alone weaponize it in some sort of war against mutants?

Also what happens when Kindred start Embracing mutants?

[Bloodtomb]

Well of course maybe settings like this I think Vampire disciplines need to be beefened up to match Mutant level powers. Or maybe the PCs should be extremely low generation or high blood potency which they need to be Elder/Methuselah level powers?

Of course though for those who played Dark Ages: Fae I wonder if a Fae can beat a Mutant and Mutate since I heard Unleashings and Dominions are really powerful and maybe up there with Mutant powers.....

Well what supernatural can beat a Mutant basically?

[comicshorse]

Well what supernatural can beat a Mutant basically?

A decent Mage would have a chance against most

[Anonymouswizard]

Well of course maybe settings like this I think Vampire disciplines need to be beefened up to match Mutant level powers. Or maybe the PCs should be extremely low generation or high blood potency which they need to be Elder/Methuselah level powers?

Let me rephrase this: 'I don't like the answer so of course we need to change the setting to make it fairer.'

Well what supernatural can beat a Mutant basically?

A lucky Werewolf abusing stepping sideways. A Wraith using the Outrage Arcanoi. A Giovanni abusing a Wraith with the Outrage Arcanoi. Possibly a demon manifesting their apocalyptic form.

A decent Mage would have a chance against most

Just a note, as long as a smart mage has a rating of 2/3 in forces, life, matter, or mind and 2/3 correspondence they could probably beat the X-men 5 minutes after becoming aware of them and a good few days before the remaining mutants know what's up.

[The Glyphstone]

Let me rephrase this: 'I don't like the answer so of course we need to change the setting to make it fairer.'



A lucky Werewolf abusing stepping sideways. A Wraith using the Outrage Arcanoi. A Giovanni abusing a Wraith with the Outrage Arcanoi. Possibly a demon manifesting their apocalyptic form.



Just a note, as long as a smart mage has a rating of 2/3 in forces, life, matter, or mind and 2/3 correspondencepermissive storyteller they could probably beat the X-men 5 minutes after becoming aware of them and a good few days before the remaining mutants know what's up.

Ascension was/is never about what you could do with the dots actually written on your sheet, but how well you the player could argue the ST into permitting the effect you wanted with the dots you did have.

[Raimun]

Okay. I guess some super fast vampire (for example) could beat D- or C-list mutants (like "the spine thrower guy" from Last Stand) or Wolverine. Wolverine is not that tough. Okay, he's tough but he doesn't really have the most amazing power set.

Yet, it's unlikely vampires could beat the mutant heavy hitters. Except maybe Xavier. That's only if the writers needed him out of the story, so he will not solve the whole thing with his telepathy, "locate people ability" and mind control.

[Pilo]

Remember in WOD, science is a kind of magic, so mutant are supernatural too. If the mutations are unexplainable, or sleepers not ready to admit them in reality, they will generate paradox and destroys themselves and the technocracy.

Days are not a that good weapon against vampires otherwise hunters will have won a long time ago.

Vampires have servants : animals, humans, ghouls, shadows, wraiths, demons, spirits, vicissitude blood beasts.
Vampires have tactics : they corrupt, bribe since the start of their existences.
Vampires have magic : How long until a ward versus mutant ritual
Vampires are dead : plagues can erradicate the livings

Mutants have famillies : why not turn parents and sibblings into ghouls and vampires and makes them fights their childrens and relatives, it is a small cost for immortallity.

[Anonymouswizard]

Remember in WOD, science is magic, so mutant are supernatural too. If the mutations are unexplainable, or sleepers not ready, they will generate paradox and destroys themselves and the technocracy.

Yeah, the Technocracy takes 10 minutes out of the ascension war to put down the 'reality deviants' as soon as they show up. And they will, because mutant powers are too all over the place for the Technocracy, and will make it easier for reality deviants to use their barely understood parascience.

You thought Sentinels were bad? They'll send squads of HIT-marks after you, shut down the school, and whip up an 'anti-mutant' field. It will take a year or two to quiet down, but the Technocracy can do enough damage in 10 minutes to switch from 'war' to 'cleanup'.

[LibraryOgre]

The Mod Wonder: Combined a lot of similar threads here. Carry on.

[TheCountAlucard]

Yeah, the Technocracy takes 10 minutes out of the ascension war to put down the 'reality deviants' as soon as they show up. And they will, because mutant powers are too all over the place for the Technocracy, and will make it easier for reality deviants to use their barely understood parascience.

You thought Sentinels were bad? They'll send squads of HIT-marks after you, shut down the school, and whip up an 'anti-mutant' field. It will take a year or two to quiet down, but the Technocracy can do enough damage in 10 minutes to switch from 'war' to 'cleanup'.

A discussion on X-Men vs. the Men In Black. Hmm.

Honestly that's more interesting than X-Men vs. Anne Rice anyway.

[McStabbington]

For everyone except mages, they are chaff against Marvel comics characters. Spiderman canonically is not particularly strong by Marvel standards, in that the amount he can lift over his head is about 20 tons. Strong certainly, and stronger than many mutants, but nowhere close to being in the same range as Colossus or The Thing, let along Juggernaut or Hulk. But it's also 20 times as much as the theoretical lifting strength of an 8th generation vampire with 5 Potence and strength buffed to 10. Marvel characters are quite literally an order of magnitude more powerful than WoD PC's at their maximum. Werewolves fare even worse, though they start out tougher.

So the only things that can really affect them are mages, who can warp reality to suit their whim, some fae, who can do the same, and elder vampires, who can also do the same. Disciplines are quadratic in power at the higher levels, which means very old, very low-generation vampires could easily tangle with an Omega-level mutant. A fifth generation Gangrel who has mastered Protean could turn into a dragon. Baba Yaga could enslave a gaggle of dragons and toss them into the fight. Lasombra himself could cocoon Magneto or Phoenix in an empty pouch of the Abyss fashioned just for them and leave them there for thousands of years. Zillah could likely convince every mutant in existence that she doesn't exist had she survived.

[Bloodtomb]

Okay, a couple of things:

One, the example I gave was specifically designed to be based of Abrahamic stuff, so as to justify more Abrahamic demons. If you ask an Angel what the truth is they'll give you their religion, although nothing actually metaphysically separates 'angel' from spirit, they are a spirit society.

However you kept falling into the trap of using Abrahamic mythology as a basis which is something I find highly problematic especially the notion of "Demons posing as Gods" is culturally imperialistic or plays into Christianity demonizing other Deities that is not their own and treating it as fact is highly problematic.

That's why Abrahamic religions should stay out defining others.

Second, that setting includes five Clans, guess which five.

Third, GIOVANNI AREN'T BASED ON THE MAFIA STEREOTYPE, THEY ARE MERCHANTS.
MERCHANTS!
Giovanni are merchants and bankers. Their ties to the mob are that they likely have a mobsters money in a bank they run. A few minority are involved in organised crime, most are in more traditional businesses. You see, I like the Giovanni because they aren't vampire gangsters.

However though, the kicker is that the Giovanni are still in their core, are business oriented which often leads to the Mafia stereotype. So that means if I was going to be a Vampire Necromancer in VtM and then I'm shoehorned into a Merchant/Business person/Banker which is something I don't want. Not to mention the Giovanni's painful bite weakness as well.

[Anonymouswizard]

However you kept falling into the trap of using Abrahamic mythology as a basis which is something I find highly problematic especially the notion of "Demons posing as Gods" is culturally imperialistic or plays into Christianity demonizing other Deities that is not their own and treating it as fact is highly problematic.

That's why Abrahamic religions should stay out defining others.

I did not 'faqll into the trap', I specifically wanted to use Abrahamic mythology as a basis. For the 'demons posing as gods' (no capitals) bit, well yeah they do that, but that because when you get past the angel/elemental/wyld/whatever differentiation I'm making up for spirits, powerful angels may as well be gods. The same with strong elementals (Luna is definitely up there), the same with especially strong ghosts, whatever. I just didn't mention that because I was concentrating on the demons/dark angels. Every type of spirit being has at least a few members who posed as gods or usurped the gods of existing legends (Odin was a ghost who posed as a god for a bit, other spirits do they same thing). I've also specifically decided that the version of the setting using it has no gods.

Also, can you please not start with the Christianity bashing? It comes across as arrogant and is too likely to lead to breaking the rules.

However though, the kicker is that the Giovanni are still in their core, are business oriented which often leads to the Mafia stereotype. So that means if I was going to be a Vampire Necromancer in VtM and then I'm shoehorned into a Merchant/Business person/Banker which is something I don't want. Not to mention the Giovanni's painful bite weakness as well.

Hmmm.... businessman is the same as a gangster? Can you please give me an example of a Giovanni who is involved in organised crime. I've never seen one played (those sort of players tend towards Brujah or Gangrel), and cannot find a canon example.

[The Glyphstone]

Hmmm.... businessman is the same as a gangster? Can you please give me an example of a Giovanni who is involved in organised crime. I've never seen one played (those sort of players tend towards Brujah or Gangrel), and cannot find a canon example.

While data is not the plural of anecdotes, I've never seen a Giovanni played who was not involved in organized crime, and any other character who wanted to be a Mob member would be interacting with or against Giovanni often. So if the stereotype is mistaken, it's a very widespread one.

[Bloodtomb]

I did not 'faqll into the trap', I specifically wanted to use Abrahamic mythology as a basis. For the 'demons posing as gods' (no capitals) bit, well yeah they do that, but that because when you get past the angel/elemental/wyld/whatever differentiation I'm making up for spirits, powerful angels may as well be gods. The same with strong elementals (Luna is definitely up there), the same with especially strong ghosts, whatever. I just didn't mention that because I was concentrating on the demons/dark angels. Every type of spirit being has at least a few members who posed as gods or usurped the gods of existing legends (Odin was a ghost who posed as a god for a bit, other spirits do they same thing). I've also specifically decided that the version of the setting using it has no gods.

Also, can you please not start with the Christianity bashing? It comes across as arrogant and is too likely to lead to breaking the rules.

The bolded part is exactly where the main problem lies since you don't seem to understand that if you ever noticed, like the example you gave with Odin is exactly what I was trying to explain when other supernaturals are used as the "Source of the Myths" it robs the legitimacy of those religions but yet Yahweh still remains untouched as a actual Deity as if the legitimacy of Abrahamic faiths is never really questioned, which is something to be expected in societies that are predominated in Christianity where they take other religions as if they're up for grabs and use them as playthings but turn around respect the Abrahamic faiths which downright hypocritical.

Perhaps you should read this for a better explanation what I'm trying to explain: http://pastebin.com/HUmmfscB

And I never really once bashed Christianity itself, I'm only criticizing it when it's used as the main framework and as a basis which I feel is problematic.

Well basically, I would rather have Odin as a Deity as what he is (no different than Yahweh...), not some ghost....

[comicshorse]

While data is not the plural of anecdotes, I've never seen a Giovanni played who was not involved in organized crime, and any other character who wanted to be a Mob member would be interacting with or against Giovanni often. So if the stereotype is mistaken, it's a very widespread one.

I've got to say my experience is the exact opposite. I've never seen a Giovanni played who was connected with the Mafia and while interacting with criminal groups has thrown up the odd Giovanni NPC its thrown up more Brujah, Setite's and Lasombra (not to mention the odd Tszimsce and Ventrue)

[Anonymouswizard]

The bolded part is exactly where the main problem lies since you don't seem to understand that if you ever noticed, like the example you gave with Odin is exactly what I was trying to explain when other supernaturals are used as the "Source of the Myths" it robs the legitimacy of those religions but yet Yahweh still remains untouched as a actual Deity

So YHWH is untouched as an actual deity by... being specifically called out as not being a deity? You seem to think that just because you've seen something 615 times it'll be exactly the same the 616^th time. Not that I shouldn't be surprised that you didn't bother to actually read it and jumped to conclusions instead, you seem to do this a lot with me.

as if the legitimacy of Abrahamic faiths is never really questioned, which is something to be expected in societies that are predominated in Christianity where they take other religions as if they're up for grabs and use them as playthings but turn around respect the Abrahamic faiths which downright hypocritical.

Except my 'history' had all modern Abrahamic faiths as being wrong. Even the ancient Caanite and Hebrew faiths were likely wrong, but only in the way every other culture was.

Perhaps you should read this for a better explanation what I'm trying to explain: http://pastebin.com/HUmmfscB

If you'll excuse me, I gave ALL faiths the same treatment: the closest thing we can find to your deities are spirit beings who may be them, may be using their names, or may just have the same name. I wanted an atheistic supernatural world, and I did it by flatly stating 'there are no gods, but beings that act like them may exist'. If I'm misrepresenting one faith, might as well misrepresent them all.

And I never really once bashed Christianity itself, I'm only criticizing it when it's used as the main framework and as a basis which I feel is problematic.

You implied that it's bad for currently using an approach that it abandoned.

Well basically, I would rather have Odin as a Deity as what he is (no different than Yahweh...), not some ghost....

Odin is a ghost (and still around, that Wodan has a great deal of power behind him), YHWH was an angel (read: spirit) before he died (and he cannot come back, he's gone). I don't really see how different that is beyond 'starting point'.

[LibraryOgre]

The Mod Wonder: I would suggest moving away from the discussion of real-world religion, as we are veering out of purely game territory.

[Beleriphon]

While data is not the plural of anecdotes, I've never seen a Giovanni played who was not involved in organized crime, and any other character who wanted to be a Mob member would be interacting with or against Giovanni often. So if the stereotype is mistaken, it's a very widespread one.

It doesn't hurt that the two VtM video games basically played the Giovanni as the Mafie. But I mean what do you want, a hierarchical group of "legitimate businessmen", from Italy, that don't give a rat's petard about rules, or killing people, aren't the mafia. Just because the Giovanni don't run protection or numbers rackets doesn't make them any less involved in organized crime. I tend to view them more as moving weapons, money laundering and other illegal activities as much as legitimate business. Besides, when you're effectively immortal the long game is probably a good way to go. Besides, if you want well connected humans to turn in ghouls Mafiosos are hard to beat since the Don comes with a built group of loyal thugs.