Saga Edition Thread III: Saga Academy

[LibraryOgre]

So what's the deal with Severing Strike? It seems like all the iconic Jedi characters have it, yet it might be the most useless talent ever (it only works after you've already killed your opponent). If it is necessary for the movie Jedi to have, and something a player would never take because it offers no real benefit, shouldn't it just be a mechanic of the game?

D6 Star Wars simply made it so, if your Jedi had killed someone, you could instead declare that you removed a limb.

[stanprollyright]

I'd probably make this house rule:

If you a) kill someone with a slashing weapon or b) get a crit with a slashing weapon that brings your opponent to the bottom of the condition track, you (or the GM) can instead choose to sever a limb.

Then it becomes more of a GM tool for not outright killing your players, or for not letting your players kill the BBEG outright. It also can be used by characters wielding vibroblades and the like.

[Malifice]

Force grip is dc 15 for 2d6, hardly a guaranteed kill, you would need to get at least 20 to reliably down the stormtrooper in 1 turn.
Besides force grip has only got a range of 18 meters, barely more than a charge.

Your average 1st level Human Jedi has a UtF of +12. DC 15 isnt exactly difficult to hit.

And he just maintains it.

It takes BBEG's out of the fight every single time.

The scaling evens out as you get closer to 20th level, but its an issue for many.

I'd probably make this house rule:

If you a) kill someone with a slashing weapon or b) get a crit with a slashing weapon that brings your opponent to the bottom of the condition track, you (or the GM) can instead choose to sever a limb.

Then it becomes more of a GM tool for not outright killing your players, or for not letting your players kill the BBEG outright. It also can be used by characters wielding vibroblades and the like.

I do just this, but tie it into the expenditure of a Destiny point.

[Jayngfet]

Your average 1st level Human Jedi has a UtF of +12. DC 15 isnt exactly difficult to hit.

And he just maintains it.

It takes BBEG's out of the fight every single time.

Unless the trooper takes initiative. Which he has a good shot of given how few skills Jedi have and how much needs to be done in a Saga game. Then he pulls his grenade and knocks the Jedi down the condition track. Because every trooper has a grenade. Then he just needs to get lucky once to take the victory. Its not a consistent thing but he has a damn good shot at winning. Especially given an unarmored Jedi is way easier to hit than an armored stormtrooper.

Not to mention that realistically, your trooper is at least part of a fire team of like four other guys that won't be clumped together in convenient slamming range. If a Jedi starts throwing force powers out he WILL draw fire, and since he's burned everything he had he's basically useless for the encounter, and better hope he gets a break or a critical to recharge after.

Which is the thing. Your player is literally dumping all his resources to kill a singular mook in a squad. If he gets most of them in one go that's just your fault as a GM for badly planning the encounter since. If he's able to get a boss with that trick and no henchmen can stop him its also your fault and nobody else's because as a GM you knew he had that trick ahead of time and failed to plan for it.

UTF is op for a lot of things. It replaces like half the skills in the game. You can knock someone down the condition track at light years with the right gear. But them doing what an out the box heavy weapon can do consistently once or using all their actions to do less damage round to round what their lightsaber does is a non issue. Especially when the books outright say pulling that stunt too often will attract inquisitors and the like anyway.

[Malifice]

Unless the trooper takes initiative. Which he has a good shot of given how few skills Jedi have and how much needs to be done in a Saga game. Then he pulls his grenade and knocks the Jedi down the condition track. Because every trooper has a grenade. Then he just needs to get lucky once to take the victory. Its not a consistent thing but he has a damn good shot at winning. Especially given an unarmored Jedi is way easier to hit than an armored stormtrooper.

A grenade does 4d6 damage. The Jedi has 30 hit points. If the trooper is in grenade range he's also in force choke range.

Lets assume he wins initiative, hits and deals 14 damage. After that, he dies.

Not to mention that realistically, your trooper is at least part of a fire team of like four other guys that won't be clumped together in convenient slamming range. If a Jedi starts throwing force powers out he WILL draw fire, and since he's burned everything he had he's basically useless for the encounter, and better hope he gets a break or a critical to recharge after.

Man absolutely. I have no problems with stormtroopers being cut down like the mooks they are, but being dangerous in numbers.

Its just annoying when your BBEG gets cut down with an auto death every combat. Its like having a save or suck autofail ruin your encounters all the time.

Also; when you use the same tactic on the players with an enemy force user it sucks all the worse.

There really is no need for it; I prefer the skills to stage along the same line and at the same rate as other attacks (like 4E and 5E do).

Its a common complaint with SWSE.

[stanprollyright]

I do just this, but tie it into the expenditure of a Destiny point.

Good idea. Turning death into a lost limb seems an appropriate use of a Destiny Point.

[Mando Knight]

I do just this, but tie it into the expenditure of a Destiny point.

A Force Point is by RAW all you need to spend to avoid a killing blow. Destiny points are for dodging a blow outright.

[Malifice]

A Force Point is by RAW all you need to spend to avoid a killing blow. Destiny points are for dodging a blow outright.

Yeah, I should add that I use destiny points for this, and not force points. Force points do everything else though aside from saving you from death, and buying off DSP's (and I allow calling on the dark side 1/ encounter for a bonus FP as well).

I house ruled destiny points to do:

Destiny points:

• If your character would ever die for any reason (such as taking damage equal to his damage threshold that also reduces his HP to zero) your character may elect to spend a destiny point to avoid death. The damage is instead ignored; however the GM is free to assign an unpleasant consequence or story element (unconsciousness, the loss of a limb, destroyed equipment etc) and to describe what ‘saves’ the character as he desires. This use of a destiny point is a non-action (and thus can be taken even when your character is unconscious or otherwise prevented from taking actions).
• You may spend a destiny point as a reaction (or a free action on your turn) to gain a +10 destiny bonus to all defences, damage rolls, skill checks, ability checks and attack rolls until the end of your next turn.
• You may spend a destiny point as a reaction to act out of turn (thus changing your position in the initiative order), once per encounter.
• As a reaction, you may spend a destiny point to take damage that would otherwise harm another character within three squares.
• You may spend a destiny point as a free action to increase the effect of some Force powers (as noted in their descriptions).
• You may spend a destiny point as a free action to use some applications of Force secrets (as noted in their descriptions)
• As a free action you may spend a destiny point to immediately gain 3 temporary Force Points (see Force Points, page 92). These temporary force points last 24 hours, until spent, or until the characters force points refresh, whichever comes first.
• 'Forever will it dominate your destiny' A hero tainted by the dark side can work his way back to the light through heroic deeds, the use of Destiny Points, and by atoning for past misdeeds. A character can sacrifice 1 Destiny Point to and undertake a period of atonement (representing a period of meditation, reflection, and absolution on the part of the character) and reduce his Dark Side Score by up to three (and clear up to three boxes on his Dark Side Score tracker). If desired by the player and GM, this atonement can be worked into the campaign as part of an adventure, but it isn't necessary. It can occur between adventures.

A dark character cannot use this option; A dark character may only attempt to turn away from the dark side by performing an act of dramatic heroism without relying upon or utilising the dark side of the Force. Such an act should require extreme personal cost, be made in a selfless manner, and provide a significant benefit to the galactic balance. Darth Vader performed such an act of dramatic heroism at the end of Return of the Jedi when he sacrificed his own life to save his son and destroy the Emperor. Kyp Durron (in the expanded Star Wars universe) performed a similar act of dramatic heroism by destroying the Sun Crusher, a super weapon prototype. Additionally, Jedi history tells of a Jedi named Bastila Shan (from Knights of the Old Republic) falling to the dark side, but in an act of dramatic heroism she turned the Republic fleet against Darth Malak using a powerful form of Battle Meditation

It makes DP's a lot more like WEG's force points, and removes auto success from the picture.

I also award 1 DP for acts of dramatic heroism, in addition to all PCs getting one for advancing a level.

[Jayngfet]

A grenade does 4d6 damage. The Jedi has 30 hit points. If the trooper is in grenade range he's also in force choke range.

Lets assume he wins initiative, hits and deals 14 damage. After that, he dies.

Man absolutely. I have no problems with stormtroopers being cut down like the mooks they are, but being dangerous in numbers.

Its just annoying when your BBEG gets cut down with an auto death every combat. Its like having a save or suck autofail ruin your encounters all the time.

The problem you describe I still feel is only an issue for a GM with poor planning. In that scenario the tooper isn't even a useless mook, its a team of equal size to the PC's. Hell, a trooper knocking off only half a PC's hp in one hit being an issue is laughable in any well designed encounter.

Because, and this is the thing, if your players are consistently fighting in flat, featureless close range combat where they can pull that trick off, its because you have failed at level design. If your big boss has defenses low enough a low level party can stun lock him, you failed. If you design your bosses to show up alone with nothing that can occupy a jedi PC from doing that, you failed.

Thats literally all their is to it. In this scenario you have a player with only one basic trick thats easy to counter. If your big important dudes have defenses that poor, never use long range attacks, never use stealth, amd never use backup, they don't deserve the title.

[Malifice]

The problem you describe I still feel is only an issue for a GM with poor planning. In that scenario the tooper isn't even a useless mook, its a team of equal size to the PC's. Hell, a trooper knocking off only half a PC's hp in one hit being an issue is laughable in any well designed encounter.

Because, and this is the thing, if your players are consistently fighting in flat, featureless close range combat where they can pull that trick off, its because you have failed at level design. If your big boss has defenses low enough a low level party can stun lock him, you failed. If you design your bosses to show up alone with nothing that can occupy a jedi PC from doing that, you failed.

Thats literally all their is to it. In this scenario you have a player with only one basic trick thats easy to counter. If your big important dudes have defenses that poor, never use long range attacks, never use stealth, amd never use backup, they don't deserve the title.

Look man, this isnt an argument thing. SWSE's scaling is off. Its the most common complaint with the system. The poster I was talking to wanted to know some common house-rules peeps use, or problems with the mechanics of the game.

The most common houserule (aside from allowing skill training instead of a feat on MCing) are ones that deal with the disparity (uneeded disparity IMO) with the scaling of skill/ attack/ defence scores in the system.

Its the most common complaint with the system. Google 'skill focus use the force' and youll see what Im talking about. You might not agree its an issue; but a heck of a lot of people do.

[Waar]

The problem you describe I still feel is only an issue for a GM with poor planning. In that scenario the tooper isn't even a useless mook, its a team of equal size to the PC's. Hell, a trooper knocking off only half a PC's hp in one hit being an issue is laughable in any well designed encounter.

Because, and this is the thing, if your players are consistently fighting in flat, featureless close range combat where they can pull that trick off, its because you have failed at level design. If your big boss has defenses low enough a low level party can stun lock him, you failed. If you design your bosses to show up alone with nothing that can occupy a jedi PC from doing that, you failed.

Thats literally all their is to it. In this scenario you have a player with only one basic trick thats easy to counter. If your big important dudes have defenses that poor, never use long range attacks, never use stealth, amd never use backup, they don't deserve the title.

Look, skill focus use the force is a problem a low levels, sure the GM can build around it, but you shouldn't have to, and yes force griping a storm trooper isn't the best example, but move object on massive beasts, deflect, block etc. limit the amount of situations you can present where the rest of the party won't feel outclassed by the force user.

[Jayngfet]

Look, skill focus use the force is a problem a low levels, sure the GM can build around it, but you shouldn't have to, and yes force griping a storm trooper isn't the best example, but move object on massive beasts, deflect, block etc. limit the amount of situations you can present where the rest of the party won't feel outclassed by the force user.

The thing is, that's such a wide array of situational stuff that a first level character who doesn't have an 18 won't be able to do much outside of a few specific situations.

And I am being a bit too aggressive here, but c'mon guys. This is a d20 system here. The magic guy being OP isn't a new problem. This is way less of a problem than dealing with a 3.x caster who can do all of this and then some.

A low level Jedi is about equal to a burst fire heavy weapons soldier or a demolitions guy with concussion grenades in terms of damage. They can mind trick, but that doesn't work on droids and they're common enough to throw a wrench in that, and using it too much is a clear way to the dark side and will attract attention from enemy force users explicitly.

As for them stealing focus, anybody with Tech Specialist or Superior Tech is going to be consistently giving party wide bonuses. Any noble with born leader will be having an effect even beyond just shooting at mooks. The Jedi can't have vehic combat if they go that much all in at low levels with the force and needs to step back in space combat. There are enough options that the party can much more consistently contribute than most other D20 games.

I just don't really see it as much of an issue by comparison. The only real thing separating a Jedi from the rest of the party is their stuff is per encounter instead of per credits, but beyond the first couple of sessions that just means they use their force stuff less, not more.

[Waar]

A low level Jedi is about equal to a burst fire heavy weapons soldier or a demolitions guy with concussion grenades in terms of damage. They can mind trick, but that doesn't work on droids and they're common enough to throw a wrench in that, and using it too much is a clear way to the dark side and will attract attention from enemy force users explicitly.

As for them stealing focus, anybody with Tech Specialist or Superior Tech is going to be consistently giving party wide bonuses. Any noble with born leader will be having an effect even beyond just shooting at mooks. The Jedi can't have vehic combat if they go that much all in at low levels with the force and needs to step back in space combat. There are enough options that the party can much more consistently contribute than most other D20 games.

Sure 5d10 is great damage, but that misses out on the accuracy of force powers, and concussion grenades, how could anybody prefer frag grenades over them? No I have not included concussion grenades in any game I have run, if the players want more devastating grenades they can try to get a hold of thermal detonators.

Now born leader is often great, but it is higly dependent on group size while superior tech is quite hard to get.

And all this comparing to specific editions of dnd, just because it has been done worse in other games, does not mean it can't be improved here.

[Jayngfet]

Sure 5d10 is great damage, but that misses out on the accuracy of force powers, and concussion grenades, how could anybody prefer frag grenades over them? No I have not included concussion grenades in any game I have run, if the players want more devastating grenades they can try to get a hold of thermal detonators.

Now born leader is often great, but it is higly dependent on group size while superior tech is quite hard to get.

And all this comparing to specific editions of dnd, just because it has been done worse in other games, does not mean it can't be improved here.

Born leader is basically a must have if your PCs ever run with people outside of just PC's. Which Star Wars assumes since you default to being part of a wider military, order, or cartel in almost every assumed Backstory.

The fact is Saga assumes your PCs are allowed to be powerful. That's why everyone is level 5 or so at minimum even with generic nameless NPCs if they have class levels and anyone actually named usually has at least seven. Actually important people are ten to fifteen. You aren't gonna force slam Vader into submission. You couldn't even manage Starkiller or a random inquisitor until late game. Hell, consistently dealing with squads of non generic troopers will usually be a mid level problem.

PCs in Saga are strong. Because they NEED TO BE STRONG. Even just in ANH you have giant high stakes problems and rewards in tens of thousands of credits. If a low level player can be expected to survive to level up they need to survive situations where they are always outnumbered and outgunned and default troopers can hit their threshold consistently.

And while this is really blunt I'm just going to be aggressive about it: If you have a problem with players in a futuristic game about super psychics and kilometers long battleships having cool powers and strong toys: suck it up. You knew exactly what you were getting into because it was right there on the box. Its on you to make it interesting regardless. You can whine it isn't easy but there's a dozen solutions to the issue in the core book alone if you get creative and literal hundreds in all the books together.

[Malifice]

And I am being a bit too aggressive here, but c'mon guys. This is a d20 system here. The magic guy being OP isn't a new problem. This is way less of a problem than dealing with a 3.x caster who can do all of this and then some.

No, but it IS a problem. And the poster wanted to know about any problems in the system, and any potential mechanical fixes for it.

A low level Jedi is about equal to a burst fire heavy weapons soldier or a demolitions guy with concussion grenades in terms of damage. They can mind trick, but that doesn't work on droids and they're common enough to throw a wrench in that, and using it too much is a clear way to the dark side and will attract attention from enemy force users explicitly.

Mate; Do you consider 4th level to be high level? Here is a pretty standard [Jedi 3/ Noble 1] dark side (can just as easily be light side) Force wizard:

Species: Human
S: 8, Dex 14, Int 8, Con 11, Cha 16, Wis 16
Talents: Grenade defence, Deflect, Exceptional Skill UtF (GoI)
Feats: Force sensitive, Lightsaber, simple weapons, blaster pistol, liguist, Force training [3], Skill focus UtF
Skills: Initiative +9, UtF +15 (treats any roll of 2-7 as an 8)
Force powers: Force grip, Negate energy, Mind trick, Dark Transfer, Move object, Rebuke, Force slam, Force lightning, Surge, Energy resistance, Phase, Farseeing

I could add some transfer essence cheese in there too, but thats more of an issue with transfer essence rather than anything else.

Next level its a level of scout for evasion. Then its soldier for another force talent (channel energy). Then scoundrel for another one (illusion is nice... and some more force training - ill be loading up on a few lighsaber form powers for the next few levels). Then its off to Sith Apprentice for Block and Ataru and to load up on force techniques [first force point recovery, then dominate mind then improved force lightning), heading into Sith Lord ASAP for force secrets.

Its a monster. Yeah, I know there are ways around it [any build that renders it flat footed and thus unable to use reactions is a good start, and it has a relatively short range] but its a real headache to DM against.

Simply making UtF scale in line with BAB and defences brings it down to earth and makes it comparable (although still nasty) against both other PCs and likely threats.

[Jayngfet]

...now take that build into a space battle. Or throw on a droid with locked access that has something you want. Or any other of a million standard campaign options where being a powerful Jedi means nothing since dumping your skills into one niche means you can do nothing elsewhere.

If this is meant to be a major intimidation thing about s fourth level heroic Jedi being a problem, remember the average force using imperial has a level of FIFTEEN. Random dark Jedi from the academy manual are still six or seven on average. Every single time that your Jedi build does ANYTHING he sends a beacon to anyone more powerful that he's a giant target and the Empire has literally thousands of people around for this exact reason. Those are "likley threats" for someone trying to pull that kind of stunt with a Jedi build.

So yeah, I'm not really seeing a problem.

[Malifice]

...now take that build into a space battle.

I never said its a perfet fit for every encounter. But run it through dawn of defiance or any other standard encounter featuring a majority of battles with clone troopers/ sith troopers/ storm troopers plus BBEG type etc and its a monster.

Or throw on a droid with locked access that has something you want.

Lightsaber. Or just mind tricks someone to do it for him.

Or any other of a million standard campaign options where being a powerful Jedi means nothing since dumping your skills into one niche means you can do nothing elsewhere.

Dude, the overwhelming majoity of encounters can be smashed by this character. He can mind trick (and later dominate) any social encounter to give him what he wants or to do what he wants. Standard combat encounters he can equally dominate, shutting down any BBEG with virtual impunity. Exploration? He can walk through walls. Compared to any other standard 4th level character, outside of certain niches like space combat, he has a way of defeating any encounter, with no real difficulty at all,

If this is meant to be a major intimidation thing about s fourth level heroic Jedi being a problem, remember the average force using imperial has a level of FIFTEEN.

Dude, Jedi Masters and Sith Lords are 13th level. Feel free to have a standard inquisitor at the same power level as Vader (who himself was only 19th level at the end of Ep V1) its up to you.

Speaking of Vader, the force wizard I posted earlier could reasonably easily take him down at around 12th level (UtF + 20, treat a 2-7 as an 8 vs Vaders +17). Chosen one? Pfft.

Every single time that your Jedi build does ANYTHING he sends a beacon to anyone more powerful that he's a giant target and the Empire has literally thousands of people around for this exact reason. Those are "likley threats" for someone trying to pull that kind of stunt with a Jedi build.

Now youre placing narrative restrictions on a mechanical problem.

'If you use a mechanical problem with the system, yes youll smash many encounters, but the bogeyman will come and get you'

So yeah, I'm not really seeing a problem.

Cool but youre virtually on your own here. Seriously - google it.

[Jayngfet]

I never said its a perfet fit for every encounter. But run it through dawn of defiance or any other standard encounter featuring a majority of battles with clone troopers/ sith troopers/ storm troopers plus BBEG type etc and its a monster.

Yeah. It destroys an out the box encounter that ignores large chunks of the system. But that just brings us back to "this is not a problem for a good GM."

Lightsaber. Or just mind tricks someone to do it for him.

...a Jedi is going to flawlessly open an internal system with a lightsaber and keep it intact? OK.

Likewise if theres locked access and the guy with access is easy to find there's no point to locking it.

Dude, the overwhelming majoity of encounters can be smashed by this character. He can mind trick (and later dominate) any social encounter to give him what he wants or to do what he wants. Standard combat encounters he can equally dominate, shutting down any BBEG with virtual impunity. Exploration? He can walk through walls. Compared to any other standard 4th level character, outside of certain niches like space combat, he has a way of defeating any encounter, with no real difficulty at all,

And if he uses the force to solve every problem he attracts inquisitors before he can ever reach a high enough level to do anything.

Dude, Jedi Masters and Sith Lords are 13th level. Feel free to have a standard inquisitor at the same power level as Vader (who himself was only 19th level at the end of Ep V1) its up to you.

An emperors hand is explicitly level fifteen and inquisitors are in the same range. That's not me BSing, that's just the rules as written.

Speaking of Vader, the force wizard I posted earlier could reasonably easily take him down at around 12th level (UtF + 20, treat a 2-7 as an 8 vs Vaders +17). Chosen one? Pfft.

So he could fights Vader at the same level Luke did. I still fail to see a problem.

Now youre placing narrative restrictions on a mechanical problem.

'If you use a mechanical problem with the system, yes youll smash many encounters, but the bogeyman will come and get you'

This is just an explicit rule by the book. Check TFU. The same book that gives imperial dark siders such high levels. The system puts this into account already.

Cool but youre virtually on your own here. Seriously - google it.

I'm on my own enforcing the rules as written. OK.

[Sith_Happens]

Last I checked "Rocks fall, everyone dies" is not considered good game design or good GMing.

[Jayngfet]

Last I checked "Rocks fall, everyone dies" is not considered good game design or good GMing.

The threat of the action is as important as the action itself. The players only need to encounter a higher level Jedi hunter once or twice before they get the message. They can survive by burning force and destiny points at that point.

This is Star Wars. There's always either a sith lord in control or aiming to be and the setting defaults to the idea that there are darksider characters that will challenge the PC's. That the GM enforces this is expected and why characters are allowed to be strong: this is the kind of thing you need to be able to survive, if not always win.

[Sith_Happens]

There's always either a sith lord in control or aiming to be and the setting defaults to the idea that there are darksider characters that will challenge the PC's.

The idea that every last one of those darksiders is high level, impeccably trained, and willing to travel from the other side of the galaxy to fight you specifically, on the other hand, is highly specific to a single short-lived era.

[MeeposFire]

SO if I have a carbine with no stock so it is treated as a pistol and I am a gunslinger is there any reason to use an actual pistol over a carbine? I know there are carbine specific gunslinger talents but I think some of those are designed to cover the weapon even if used as a rifle but is there an advantage I am missing for an actual pistol, for instance a heavy pistol compared to a carbine, over carbine with no stock?

[Scowling Dragon]

Funny, I don't remember Jayngfet being all that particularly happy when every force user I threw at you could hit you reliably until I implemented a scaling system with UTF checks.

Game balance wise no: The force isn't balanced perfectly in Saga. But whatever, I always found the "WELL I COULD MAKE A UBER AWESOME BUILD therefore the game isn't balanced!" a not very good reasoning for anything. You can't balance a RPG perfectly and part of the appeal is playing different power levels. Otherwise you get a linear track.

Reality wise: Should it be?

The force kinda occupies a very major role in star wars and how it has been has changed with the times and the new movies come out.

Reading the old West End Star Wars Books, the force was pretty much omnipotent. A Jedi could add sense and control to his lightsaber attacks and damage meaning they could chop up just about anything and could be blocked by nothing (And could block anything). The force was not made to be balanced, and its penalties was EXTREMELY harsh dark side point accumulation. I mean you had to be a saint of saints (Except for lightsaber use. I mean force pushing a guy into a concussion is EVIL, but cutting his head clean off with uber enhances senses as you feel the very life force draining from the individual; Go ahead!) . Regardless it fit with the idea of the force being this mysterious force and required you to be super good.

The Star Wars Universe always has a difficulty with placing Jedi in the power level spectrum. Too little, and then they are just dwarfed by deathstars and the like, too much and it just doesn't feel satisfying playing with other characters as they become glamorous cheerleaders for the Force Sensitive Uber Race and should bow down to their randomly chosen by the universe masters. I always hated the aspect of force sensitivity. Makes the universe this massive ******* that plays by ubermensh. Of course if its available to anybody, then why doesn't everybody do it cause its awesome is another dealio (One solved pretty easily in my book but whatever).

Whatever, point is the Force kinda depends on setting to work. The original films WHERE made with the idea that the Force Was a tipping point against the seemingly invincible forces of evil. Star Wars was made to work with some evil empire, or some evil forces hounding you with overwhelming force only to be barely balanced with your own unique force abilities.

And the older RPGs and books did suggest that more force use caused you to be detectable. So there was that.

[Malifice]

And the older RPGs and books did suggest that more force use caused you to be detectable. So there was that.

Chancellor Palpatine likes this.

[Jayngfet]

SO if I have a carbine with no stock so it is treated as a pistol and I am a gunslinger is there any reason to use an actual pistol over a carbine? I know there are carbine specific gunslinger talents but I think some of those are designed to cover the weapon even if used as a rifle but is there an advantage I am missing for an actual pistol, for instance a heavy pistol compared to a carbine, over carbine with no stock?

If I understand it right, carbines are too big to dual wield without mods and you'll likley pick up an ascension gun or something else modified when you get the cash anyway just because it has more utility. A carbine, especially for somebody actually trained in rifles, is a good option. But it isn't the be all and end all. A straight scoundrel will probably take a heavy pistol or an ascension gun then drop in some kind of modification to it. Especially since you'll need to dip in other classes to use it as a rifle while other pistols can already autofire.

Funny, I don't remember Jayngfet being all that particularly happy when every force user I threw at you could hit you reliably until I implemented a scaling system with UTF checks.

To be honest I was never a fan of it then. But that's less an issue with the system and more specifics with one encounter. But I wasn't even playing a force user then so it wasn't really my fight to engage.

Back to the force user question: The majority of books and stats are either neutral or assume the Empire is a thing. If they aren't a thing most of the others have plenty of dark siders.

As for most imperial dark siders being highly trained: that's just how the book says it goes. But that's in line with Saga in general where generic smugglers have seven heroic levels and stock R4 droids can do better than a PC with tech focus until like level five and only cost like 1500.

Which is the thing. Saga is a game that assumes high power level. You can make it play closer to the OT or have less power behind it, but only if, as discussed, you refuse to allow a number of weapons and slash everyone's skills while keeping them at less than half the level of everyone else they ever talk to. Its not about the force being overpowered, ultimately. Its about every single thing being stronger than 3.X by design and the GM needing to compensate.

I mean don't get me wrong, me and Scowling Dragon between us have probably an entire splatbook worth of lower tier generic NPC's, simple droids, ships, and weapons. But that's a fundamental difference since its adding stuff to facilitate that kind of balanced lower level game instead if going to your players and declaring you can't do the one thing you can actually consistently accomplish because the GM decides being lower level than a generic youngling isn't bad enough.

[Mando Knight]

If I understand it right, carbines are too big to dual wield without mods

They're Medium, which means they can be one-handed just fine if the stock is folded, and in Saga the only time the concept of "light weapon" is ever mentioned is with regards to non-lightsaber finesse-able melee weapons.

The main reason to buy a heavy blaster pistol is that even with the licenses (assuming you either pass the bureaucracy check on the first go or the GM waives it, which isn't guaranteed), it's a whole 90 credits cheaper than a carbine with a folding stock... though if you're going to keep the stock folded, you can upgrade to a regular rifle for only 110 more credits, and then you lose the Inaccurate tag.

[Jayngfet]

They're Medium, which means they can be one-handed just fine if the stock is folded, and in Saga the only time the concept of "light weapon" is ever mentioned is with regards to non-lightsaber finesse-able melee weapons.

The main reason to buy a heavy blaster pistol is that even with the licenses (assuming you either pass the bureaucracy check on the first go or the GM waives it, which isn't guaranteed), it's a whole 90 credits cheaper than a carbine with a folding stock... though if you're going to keep the stock folded, you can upgrade to a regular rifle for only 110 more credits, and then you lose the Inaccurate tag.

Right. But doesn't a carbine only count as a pistol when folded?

But then again, an ascension gun is still a better option due to giving mobility options without needing a bulky jetpack or having force powers.

[Mando Knight]

Right. But doesn't a carbine only count as a pistol when folded?

That's MeeposFire's point: why would you ever buy a heavy blaster pistol when you could just buy a carbine instead and keep the stock folded? The ascension gun gives you more features than a regular heavy pistol, sure, but it's also quite a bit more expensive than a carbine and doesn't offer autofire, and what you're really looking for there is the grapple launcher part that WotC conveniently forgot to list separately.

[MeeposFire]

They're Medium, which means they can be one-handed just fine if the stock is folded, and in Saga the only time the concept of "light weapon" is ever mentioned is with regards to non-lightsaber finesse-able melee weapons.

The main reason to buy a heavy blaster pistol is that even with the licenses (assuming you either pass the bureaucracy check on the first go or the GM waives it, which isn't guaranteed), it's a whole 90 credits cheaper than a carbine with a folding stock... though if you're going to keep the stock folded, you can upgrade to a regular rifle for only 110 more credits, and then you lose the Inaccurate tag.

Inaccurate tag? What does that do? I do not remember what that does. Also wouldn't a rifle not allow opportunity attacks?

Lastly what essentially is an accession gun and how is it beneficial over either a heavy pistol, carbine, etc especially a gunslinger?

[RandomLunatic]

The reason to use the heavy blaster is that, even with the stock folded, the carbine is still a rifle, even if it still uses pistol proficiency. And a Gunslinger (the PrC, as opposed to just a gunslinger) is one of the few builds where the distinction matters, as the carbine won't work with several of its class features, including Trusty Sidearm (without the Old Faithful talent, at least) or the Pistoleer talent tree.

Now, it's an open question whether you care enough to give up the autofire.

The Acension Gun is what the NSF to get the jump on the Trade Federation when invading the Theed Palace at the climax of Phantom Menace. It's in Galaxy of War, and it's a heavy blaster plus a zipline launcher. It costs and weighs more than the standard heavy blaster, and it takes a steep penalty to conceal it on your person (It's as hard to conceal as most heavy weapons. Because this is clearly as bulky as this).