Saga Edition Thread III: Saga Academy

[Jayngfet]

So my players are going to Mandalore and I'm wondering if there are any statted Mandalorian NPC's besides the ones seen in threats to the galaxy?

My players are decently mid ranged(sitting at level 10), but every active combatant being around level 16 seems kind of ridiculous. Is there like a mandalorian rookie or mandalorian scout block hiding somewhere in the system?

By the same token, is there a stat block for Blackhole(Cronal) hanging around in the books I haven't found? One of my players may try to take a shot at him at some point.

[Mando Knight]

Your average, run-of-the-mill Mandalorian soldier is probably basically just a Soldier or Mercenary. A Mandalorian Supercommando from Threats would represent a Named Character (note that the Supercommando has only Heroic levels), not some mook.

While Cronal himself is not specifically statted out, generic Prophets of the Dark Side are listed on page 125 of JATM. They're only level 9, but you could add Force Adept/Disciple levels to bring him up to where you want him.

[Jayngfet]

Your average, run-of-the-mill Mandalorian soldier is probably basically just a Soldier or Mercenary. A Mandalorian Supercommando from Threats would represent a Named Character (note that the Supercommando has only Heroic levels), not some mook.

While Cronal himself is not specifically statted out, generic Prophets of the Dark Side are listed on page 125 of JATM. They're only level 9, but you could add Force Adept/Disciple levels to bring him up to where you want him.

To be fair, Supercommandos are like hundreds strong. Mandalorian Protectors, which are basically the same thing, also number in the hundreds.

They aren't generic mandalorians, sure, but there's still a lot of them and they're still going to be on the forefront of any major operations involving mandalorians.

[Waar]

So my players are going to Mandalore and I'm wondering if there are any statted Mandalorian NPC's besides the ones seen in threats to the galaxy?

My players are decently mid ranged(sitting at level 10), but every active combatant being around level 16 seems kind of ridiculous. Is there like a mandalorian rookie or mandalorian scout block hiding somewhere in the system?

By the same token, is there a stat block for Blackhole(Cronal) hanging around in the books I haven't found? One of my players may try to take a shot at him at some point.

The old republic book has a chapter on mandalorians, including quite a few statblocks (but some of the equipment is a bit of, especially the upgrade slots, since it was produced before scum and villany)

[Nerd-o-rama]

While Cronal himself is not specifically statted out, generic Prophets of the Dark Side are listed on page 125 of JATM. They're only level 9, but you could add Force Adept/Disciple levels to bring him up to where you want him.

The Unknown Regions also has stats for the Sorcerers of Rhand (a species-like template), as well as something either similar or identical to the Crowns he used in Shadows of Mindor, buried in the statblock of an example Sorcerer. I'm unclear on whether Cronal is a "true" Sorcerer, but he certainly picked up a number of their abilities.

I've actually thought about having "Agent Blackhole" make a cameo in my home game if my wife's character keeps taking Slicer talents and screwing around on the HoloNet where she shouldn't, but it'd be entirely in the form of a remote transmission. His entire shtick is being as far from physical conflict as humanly possible while still being able to influence it through the Force/Dark or plain old mundane manipulation, so skills and Force Powers are going to be more important than most other abilities.

[Mando Knight]

To be fair, Supercommandos are like hundreds strong. Mandalorian Protectors, which are basically the same thing, also number in the hundreds.

They aren't generic mandalorians, sure, but there's still a lot of them and they're still going to be on the forefront of any major operations involving mandalorians.

Hundreds, from a world of millions, in a galaxy of quintillions. The Supercommando statblock, representing a level 16 Heroic opponent, means that the character is on an individual basis on-par with the Fetts or Canderous Ordo. Unless they decide to assault the governor's palace, it's highly unlikely that the players would see more than one at a time.

[Philistine]

Yeah, this is one of those "sense of scale" things that Star Wars (and most other SF franchises, to be fair) is notoriously bad at. "Hundreds strong" isn't even a police force for a medium-sized city. "Hundreds," spread across an entire planet (or worse, spread across more than one planet), means your party will probably never even see one of these guys.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Hundreds of Mandalorian Supercommandos is basically one company of dedicated asskickers and/or a small squad of asskickers in several companies of an army. In the entire galaxy. You might run into half a dozen of them playing siegebreaker in an offense or a couple dozen defending whoever the current Duke/Mandalore is, but you're not going to see them in anywhere near every combat involving Mandalorians in any era.


Unrelated, but I haven't lost control of my life, you've lost control of my life.

Made with 28 point buy, still not sure on Rey's first feat or if I should give Kylo armor proficiency.

[Jayngfet]

My main concern with the Mandalorians is that the PC's weren't just looking for a random bunch of bounty hunters. They were specifically looking for the Mandalore and his men and those are the ones who'd be supercommando tier, and had been able to get some good. Saying "they're a statistical improbability" isn't really reassuring since my usual approach to these things is also"Unless the players get thrown into something higher than their pay grade every so often, things get stale".

Anyway: On those sheets

I'd say Rey's stats are kind of off. There's no way a character who has to clumsily drag stuff around like that has 14 strength. She's a clear example of a character who'd leave it at 8 then pick up weapon finesse. Those extra points would pump her INT and CHA up to a 14, which is far more accurate for a scavenger-mechanic who's also got some force aptitude.

If it were me though I'd also make her a solid level five by the end, with the other two being scoundrel and the scoundrel levels being starship surge and spacehound(since she's a good pilot and starship scale stuff is a decent thing to pump in without breaking the character). She needs to be able to stand a chance against a Kylo Ren who's gone "only" a couple steps down the condition track by the end and the penalties don't really stack too high until three steps. She also can't really burn destiny points to fake her way through that fight because Kylo Ren is obviously the kind of NPC that'd also have them given his position, backstory, and relevance.

Those two levels are also enough to fit Scavenger and Gearhead solidly due to the leveling bonus feat. I wouldn't really worry about advanced prof. since she only uses a metal rod and nothing like a vibroblade.

Rey basically needs to be higher than three for the same reason default Saga luke needs to be higher than 12: He can't even actually do the stuff he does in the films, even just in the core rulebooks(he uses a trick that's clearly Force Slam and also uses Force Disarm, but knows neither and thus needs at least one more round of Force Training, so he's got to be at least 15th level when he fights Vader, which also puts them on the more even combat footing the film actually displays).

[Nerd-o-rama]

I figured Kylo was three steps down during their fight, really: Two from Chewbacca breaking his DT with an aimed shot (Chewie being like level 15+ and probably having taken Debilitating Shot at some point) and one from Finn blowing a DP on a crit. And he doesn't take a couple rounds to Recover from these because...plot.

You might be right about the strength vs. Weapon Finesse thing. I was mostly going off of how comfortable she is with melee weapons (and the Climb skill), especially compared to Actual Stormtrooper Finn, who gets his ass kicked every time he's not using a blaster. For practical purposes, Finesse and a couple more levels might make more sense.

About the only thing I'd question is the idea that Luke and Vader are on an even combat footing in Empire. Vader's clearly toying with Luke for most of the fight until he decides to bust out the TK-spam and corner him.

[Jayngfet]

Luke kicks Vader down the stairs and takes his hand off. He's not Vader's equal but he's clearly good enough to be on reasonable footing against him. Its just Luke's goal ISN'T to kill Vader so even though he can press an advantage he doesn't until the very end.

There's also the fact that again, Saga Luke can't do the things Movie Luke can, and the ONLY way to get him to that level is an entire extra round of force training. We can argue day and night about relative levels but the fact is there are powers Luke is meant to have that he doesn't. He needs Disarm and Slam because he's displayed having those in his arsenal.

As for Kylo Ren, I assume him hitting himself between the actual sword fights is meant to be equivalent to the swift actions. So even if he goes down the track he would go back up it to -2 or -1 given he does it twice. So a started Rey needs to be able to account for that.

As for Finn: Dude doesn't have lightsaber proficiency. Its not a strength thing, or even him being lower level, its clearly that he's basically taking a penalty for using an unfamiliar weapon.

If I was doing Finn he'd have three levels in soldier then gain two more in scoundrel. Plunk down weapon focus rifles and heavy weapon proficiencies as his base feats, toss on focus heavy weapons to let him act as a gunner for level 2, then at four give him running attack and a skill focus in initiative or something at level 5. His skills would basically be the same load out as a stock stormtrooper and I'd say his INT is like 10 anyway, while his physical stats are high due to his physical training. Those high stats and decent BAB mean he could fake his way through generic mooks with a lightsaber while not really being a solid threat to someone like Kylo Ren, who's both proficient and should have block and deflect to stop lucky shots except a destiny point hit.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Actually my main problem is that I misinterpreted you and can't read and thought we were talking about the ESB duel, not the RotJ one. I mean, never mind that Luke clearly burned all his consumable resources on that last mad rush (not realizing that Palps was even more dangerous in a physical confrontation than Vader), they are pretty clearly on a less horribly skewed footing in that second encounter, yes.

(Also, while +1 to attack is pretty important in SAGA, I still think Book Luke could perhaps sacrifice Weapon Finesse for an extra Force Training. Book NPCs are just...bad in general, especially in the Core.)

[Jayngfet]

Actually my main problem is that I misinterpreted you and can't read and thought we were talking about the ESB duel, not the RotJ one. I mean, never mind that Luke clearly burned all his consumable resources on that last mad rush (not realizing that Palps was even more dangerous in a physical confrontation than Vader), they are pretty clearly on a less horribly skewed footing in that second encounter, yes.

(Also, while +1 to attack is pretty important in SAGA, I still think Book Luke could perhaps sacrifice Weapon Finesse for an extra Force Training. Book NPCs are just...bad in general, especially in the Core.)

Yeah. For my campaign I basically had to rebuild Luke almost from scratch to get him to do the things he's meant to be able to. Since the PC's met him after ANH but before ESB I started him off with four levels of scout and four levels of base jedi, and capping that off with Ace Pilot, but force regimes and starship tactics instead of force training, since at this point Luke is a leader of Rogue Squadron and his force training is "only" smacking around a remote and meditating a bit. He took a couple more levels of Ace Pilot before Hoth as the plot progressed since rogue squadron had to fly interference for a couple of points. Then after Hoth his 12th level was jedi knight with force training and I gave him the basics(surge, move object, battle strike). Since he's not present in the game currently if he's encountered post endor he'd be about level 15 and that's where force slam and force disarm and the rest will come in. Past that point I'm going to give him Shoto Pin(and up his wisdom as he levels to give him twin strikes and another saber power) to reflect the stuff he did in Marvel Comics and then another base jedi level for saber throw, before finishing him off with Master around the time of Thrawn and the formation of NJO.

A "well made" Luke Skywalker actually performs pretty well. With movement based scout talents he can basically bounce across the battlefield at 8 squares movement knocking over Mooks, which only gets stronger with Surge. Ace Pilot and the starship tactics associated with Skywalkers and Rogue Squadron mean he can also buzz in and blast apart enemies in the air pretty well at the same time.

This is just canon Luke being rebuilt. Mercifully my PC's haven't tried messing with the guy too badly out of an understanding that metaplot and destiny can be a huge deal. The only difference that's really relevant is that he has a slightly different lightsaber so I'm just building him as I go.

As for Vader vs Luke, it's important to remember that Luke and Vader both have Destiny points, and Vader actually has more of them than Luke. If it comes down to spamming consumables that's not a fight Luke would win. Even if you gave Luke a couple more than Vader, Luke would need them just to hit Vader at all, or else stop Vader from hitting him, that it wouldn't really balance out. At Endor, Vader recognizes Luke's training as being complete and that he has all the skills ready to be a Jedi. By the same token Yoda and Obi-Wan feel confident Luke can do it, so the gulf between them needs to have Narrowed.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I do maintain that Scout/Jedi is the "Hero Build" in Star Wars - Scout's Fringe Savant synergizes extremely well with a Skill-based combatant, their starting features make up for 100% of the Jedi class's deficiencies (except social skills which let's be honest, none of the leads are great at), and Evasion and Deep Space Gambit are basically plot armor in Talent form. And of course, Longstrider is great for any light or no-armor melee build. The flavor of the class is also built for Luke, Rey, and...well, if you wanted to give 9 year old Anakin a class level, it'd probably be Scout too. I wouldn't, though, or I'd call it "retrained" by the time he's done Padawaning.

Only problem is having to blow a general feat on Force Sensitivity, but that's why the leads are all human, I guess.

[Jayngfet]

Force sensitive scoundrel is also a decent mix if you don't want to dump into INT. You can use a talent to act as if you had skill training UTF once per encounter and that'll get you through everything dramatic, similar to Rey in TFA. Rey would have decent INT but not that training so scoundrel is pretty good for her. Especially since she needs endurance, acrobatics, mechanics, knowledge tech, use computer, ect. Ect.

[Mando Knight]

Force sensitive scoundrel is also a decent mix if you don't want to dump into INT. You can use a talent to act as if you had skill training UTF once per encounter and that'll get you through everything dramatic, similar to Rey in TFA. Rey would have decent INT but not that training so scoundrel is pretty good for her. Especially since she needs endurance, acrobatics, mechanics, knowledge tech, use computer, ect. Ect.

She doesn't show any Use Computer (it's basically all Mechanics), and Scout actually has one trained skill over Scoundrel. Plus, it has exclusive access to Survival.

[Jayngfet]

Mechanics with Hotwire works. But Hotwire is a scoundrel talent so she'd need scoundrel levels even if she had skill training UTF.

Rey clearly doesn't have survival though. That would mean she'd be able to forage for her own food and not be dependent on Mister Portions.

EDIT: I'd misspoken. I was referring to a noble talent: Spontaneous skill. However, mixed with Fools Luke it essentially means a force sensitive hero can act as if they'd had skill focus UTF despite no training.

[Malifice]

I had Kylo at at least 7th level (he's made his own sabre) but not much higher. Power attack, wpn focus lightsaber, strong in the force and brutal finish feats, and Block and Deflect talents. Crossguard lightaber with an unstable crystal (self made). That DSP force power from the Threats book that lets you read people minds, force grip, battlestrike, move object and a refluffed negate energy to stop the blaster bolt.

9th level at a stretch. His core trait was his relative inexperience. Blew a destiny point to kill his old man, whos Con has gone down due to age [those scoundrel d6 hit die really hurt]. A [2d10+22]x2 crit was all it took for dad to cark it. Sadly dad was all out of DP's and FPs to save himself and clocked out.

I had Rey as a FS Scout 2. Jury rigger talent, force sensitive and strong in the force. She leveled up early in the ovie and picked up vehicular combat at 2nd level as a bonus feat, and then leveled up again while in captivity on Starkiller and took a level of Jedi (the DM handwaved it thanks to her background and her prior interaction with Skywalkers lightsaber). She picked up proficiency with the lightsaber and force training with her 3rd level feat, and selected battlestrike, rebuke [both used on Kylo] and mind trick.

Chewbacca has leveled up since we last saw him. He nailed Kylo with debilitating shot from his Bowcaster and moved him 2 or 3 steps down the CT and smoked a lot of his hit points. Likely blew a destiny point too. He's probably picked up some new talent that lets him make the condition persistent, or Kylo simply didnt have the time to take the recover action (being overconfident and having to chase Rey and Finn) instead taking it duing the battle. Kylo couldnt deflect or negate it as he was flat footed, not noticing Chewie and being too busy being all moody.

Finn also blew a destiny point to crit Kylo who wasnt happy at all. Rey the same to smoke him [in conjunction with battlestrike].

[Jayngfet]

Rey was established as being a pilot early on and would have had to level off two nameless thugs which usually go as CL 1 each. She physically can not get enough experience from that encounter to level and it makes no sense for her to level then anyway. You also need to remember Rey is mostly a non-combat build so she needs room for feats like Scavenger early on.

Though this discussion reveals a whole lot of bad assumptions people make about Saga Edition: Destiny points are not a valid band-aid for underlevelled characters. Kylo Ren is very, very clearly the kind of antagonist who has a bunch of destiny points of his own(as in at least three). Burning DP's to hit him just plain will not work because he has enough of them to burn that a low level party can't afford to burn them back. Not to mention he took what'd very clearly count as a recover action twice.

Kylo needs to be level seven on the nose, but Rey and Finn need to be around level five to stand a chance against him. Because Rey is a non-combat scoundrel build (and speaking from experience, those hurt when you get dragged into any reasonably hard fight), Finn is a soldier build using none of the armor he's proficient in that'd still be better at this level and a weapon he's not actually proficient with, and their party is way understaffed with just two guys plus Chewie.

It's the same reason the Luke in the books just doesn't work: He's under levelled and he has way fewer destiny points than Vader.

[Malifice]

Rey was established as being a pilot early on and would have had to level off two nameless thugs which usually go as CL 1 each. She physically can not get enough experience from that encounter to level and it makes no sense for her to level then anyway. You also need to remember Rey is mostly a non-combat build so she needs room for feats like Scavenger early on.

Re her skills as a Pilot: Shes a human scout, so go nuts with her 6 skills. Pilot, Stealth, Mechanics, Initiative, Climb, Endurance sound about right.

Re the XP she earnt, she not only dealt with the thugs (on her own - so XP divided by 1) but also survived getting smoked by the TIE fighters [that dropped Finn to 0 HP] and got to the Falcon [possible skill challenge], she also blew up two TIE fighters in the Falcon, while flying through a ruined SD. More than enough to get her to level 2.

Though this discussion reveals a whole lot of bad assumptions people make about Saga Edition: Destiny points are not a valid band-aid for underlevelled characters. Kylo Ren is very, very clearly the kind of antagonist who has a bunch of destiny points of his own(as in at least three). Burning DP's to hit him just plain will not work because he has enough of them to burn that a low level party can't afford to burn them back. Not to mention he took what'd very clearly count as a recover action twice.

Kylo, being around 8th level (give or take) probably has around 2-3 destiny points at the start of the film. Remember - this is the bloke who wiped out the nascent Jedi academy a few years prior when he was much younger and even more inexperienced - that probably cost him a few right there.

Rey probably tried to use on one him when he was stalking her through the forest [which he countered] leaving him 1-2 more.

He blew another DP to kill his father and fulfill his corruption destiny - gaining +1 to 2 stats in the process, and turning to the Dark side.

Note that Han is all out of DPs - or better yet, he elected to die a 'heroic death in pursuit of his destiny' from the SWSE CRB - Chewie elected to use the 'vengance' option for +2 to hit and damage, while everyone else in the star system allied with Han - Rey, Finn, Poe and the other X wing pilots - got a +1 destiny bonus to attack rolls and defences from the 'Noble sacrifice' option.

Thematically totally in line with the SWSE CRB.

Meaning Kylo enters the fight with Finn and Rey with 1 DP at most. He also enters the fight betwen 2 and 3 steps down the CT, down a fair few HP from getting smoked by Chewie, and wastes a bit of time taking the recover action. He doesnt have enough DP's to counter both Finn and Rey.

He force slams Rey and knocks her to 0 HP. She spends a FP to not die (and wishes she took evasion instead of jury rigger for her 1st scout level).

He then engages Finn, who quickly realises that he is in over his head, and blows 2 DPs [Kylo counters the first] but the second lets him crit Kylo and drop even more HP. Kylo [in response] activates his Dark rage force power, scoring high enough to gain a +6 to hit and damage, blows a FP to keep it up all encounter, and proceeds to power attack Finn to 0 HP. Finn spends a FP to stay alive [but unconscious].

By this stage Rey has jagged a Con save and woken up, and been furiously taking the recover action via shake it off [and used her second wind].

Kylo enters the fight with Rey, critically low on HP, unable to use the block and deflect talents or any other force power, out of DP's, and a step or two down on the CT. Rey enters the battle with a DP to spend [she holds it back] low on HP, but at the top of the CT, and with a +1 to her defences and to her attack rolls from Hans noble sacrifice. Shes also using Anakins lightsaber [an heirloom weapon] which may have granted her an additional bonus.

She has also picked up the Block talent with her recently aquired Jedi level [although she is not yet trained in UtF so her bonus is only around the +3 mark - meaning she blows a lot of FP to block Kylos attacks - luckily, she is Stong in the Force having taken this as her human bonus feat at 1st level, like the Skywalkers both did :)].

Lukily for her, Kylo likes to use his Power attack and rapid strike feats. She manages to block his attacks [if one lands she faces 3d10+28 damage] for a round or two, before a saber lock occurs [Rey's block result equalled his attack roll and the DM is using the rules from JaTM] and decides maybe not to kill her, and instead monologues for his action to try and turn her to the Dark Side. This pisses Rey off so she instead decides to activate battlestrike, and spend her own DP - critting Kylo and reducing his HP to 0 [who spends a FP to stay alive].

Then the crack opens up and Chewie flies in.

Kylo needs to be level seven on the nose, but Rey and Finn need to be around level five to stand a chance against him. Because Rey is a non-combat scoundrel build

Rey is very clearly a Scout. Kylo is around 7-9th level in this fight [all of them Jedi, and possibly a level of force adept], and Finn and Rey are around 3rd level. Finn is a [Soldier 1/ Scoundrel 1] and Rey is a [Scout 2/ Jedi 1].

In a straight up fight, Kylo would have owned them both, however he stumbles upon them with just the 1 DP remaining, 2 steps down the CT, down on HP, and [after activating dark rage] unable to use two of his talents and activate any other force powers. After smashing Finn down to 0 HP with power attack and rapid strike, he's dropped another step down the CT and lost 2d8+5x2 more HP, is out of DPs and is critically low on FPs.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I'm glad I started this incredibly pointless discussion. It's fascinating.

TFA's still not nearly as much of a SAGA game as Rebels, though.

Incidentally, I put Kylo at level 8 right on the dot because he's clearly using Mind Probe on Poe and Rey. This also means I used three of his Talents on Force Talents and only gave him Block from Jedi - did we ever see him Deflect a blaster bolt or just catch the things?

[Mando Knight]

He only ever got shot at twice, IIRC: once by Poe (which he stopped mid-air) and once by Chewie (which hit).

[Jayngfet]

Sorry but that doesn't add up.

Kylo Ren did what would clearly count as recovering up the condition track. He sits there and does something vaguely resembling tending his wound, twice. So even if he was three steps down he'd only be taking a -1, he'd have a -2 if he was all the way near the bottom at very worst.

Likewise, Rey very clearly can't just dump all her base feats into force sensitive and strong in the force. She very clearly has Scavenger as her early feat because that's how she earns her food.

Strong in the force also doesn't allow for UTF to actually go up. She'd need a level in scoundrel to gain Fools Luck to actually pull off an opposed UTF check against Kylo Ren if there's any signifigant gap in their UTF checks. Given Rey clearly wouldn't have skill training UTF she has no actual options but to also take a noble level and grab spontaneous skill. Because that is literally the only way to replicate what she does in the film without deciding she spent a week with a jedi master between scenes. A one off +10 to UTF per encounter lets her beat interrogation and grab the saber, but not be an actual jedi.

So she'd start out with a couple of scout to pick up Scavenger, Force Sensitive, and Vehicular Combat. For her to outfight a couple of TIE pilots with no copilot to give bonuses means she'd most likely need Fools Luck by that point as well. Just because handling a colossal ship through hazards. The DC to go through that destroyer was minimum 25 a round.

[Malifice]

Kylo Ren did what would clearly count as recovering up the condition track. He sits there and does something vaguely resembling tending his wound, twice. So even if he was three steps down he'd only be taking a -1, he'd have a -2 if he was all the way near the bottom at very worst.

Not when you consider he needs to blow 3 swift actions on the same or consecutive turns to take the recover action. If each 'punch' is one swift action, he barely has time to recover the 1 step before Finn smokes him with a DP and pushes him back down the CT.

Considering he is using his standard action to attack Finn each round, and the occasional two swift actions on mighty swing [also using rapid strike and power attack] or one swift action on second wind and to activate dark rage, plus he moves around a lot [using his move action] he doesnt have much room left over in the action economy to get the 6-9 swift actions needed to recover his CT damage.

There is no way he is fully recovered on the CT as he fights Rey; in fact he's depicted as still being negatively affected by his injury from both Chewie and Finn in the novelisation.

Likewise, Rey very clearly can't just dump all her base feats into force sensitive and strong in the force. She very clearly has Scavenger as her early feat because that's how she earns her food.

You can strip components from a crashed Star Destroyer without the Scounger feat. The Scrounger feat just gives you automatic crafting components that you can use to make something straight away.

As she is a Skywalker [most likely] she has the Strong in the force and Force sensitive feats at 1st level as they all do. As does Kylo (although he took a level of Jedi, so was free to take Force training at 1st). She is clearly depicted as being both force sensitive and strong in the force from the moment we meet her.

Strong in the force also doesn't allow for UTF to actually go up. She'd need a level in scoundrel to gain Fools Luck to actually pull off an opposed UTF check against Kylo Ren if there's any signifigant gap in their UTF checks.

Nah man, her bonus in UtF isnt good at all. She just blew a FP and rolled an 8 on the d8, and Kylo rolled badly.

Given Rey clearly wouldn't have skill training UTF she has no actual options but to also take a noble level and grab spontaneous skill. Because that is literally the only way to replicate what she does in the film without deciding she spent a week with a jedi master between scenes. A one off +10 to UTF per encounter lets her beat interrogation and grab the saber, but not be an actual jedi.

Nah man, she just spends a FP for a +1d8 to the roll, or Kylo rolls bad, and she rolls well.

Kylo desnt have SF [UtF] for mine. He is raw and not focused with his force use [but he is also Strong in the force like his uncle and grandfather]. Assuming a Cha of 14, 8th level and skill training, his bonus to UtF = +11. Rey is 3rd level with a Cha of around 14 also. Shes not trained in UtF giving her a UtF of +3

Even without FP expenditure to bump her UtF check up, its not out of the picture for her to activate rebuke as he attempts to memory walk her, she then rolls 9 better than Kylo on the opposed D20s (he rolls an 8, she rolls a 17), she then blows a FP on the Rebuke power [to turn it back on him].

The real question is 'if she is not trained in UtF, how did she move light object [trained only] on Anakins L/S?

Judging by the look of surprise and shock on Kylos face, he was asking himself the same question. I put it down to the obvious macguffin nature of the L/S. Kylo used move light object on it, and the DM had it fly to Rey instead.

He only ever got shot at twice, IIRC: once by Poe (which he stopped mid-air) and once by Chewie (which hit).

Crossguard lightsabers grant him a -2 to his deflect checks. Explains why he prefers to negate energy [fluffed as him catching the bolt in midair] vs ranged attacks.

Also, Chewie caught him flatfooted so he was unable to take any reactions [negate energy or deflect]. This also triggered Chewies dastardly strike talent [he's taken another level in Scoundrel] in addition to the damage itself pushing him 2 steps down the CT. Possibly three steps if chewie took some Gunslinger levels over the past 30 years.

He was also shot at by Rey as he stalked her through the forest outside of Maz Kanatas place from memory, and he was deflecting (but not redirecting) those blasts, so its fair to say he has either the deflect or L/S defence talents.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Whosoever pulleth out this lightsaber of this stone and snowbank shall rightwise be crowned new main character born of Star Wars.

(I'm saying it was a plot thing, but also, has anyone with Force Sensitive ever not marked UtF "trained", regardless of whether the character has in fact been ICly trained in their backstory? I can see starting without Force Training but come on.)

[Malifice]

Whosoever pulleth out this lightsaber of this stone and snowbank shall rightwise be crowned new main character born of Star Wars.

I can see where theyre headed with the story.

Two Skywalkers [for mine, Rey is Kylos twin brother - hidden from her father and mother at birth - if they maintain the mirroring of the OT, or alternatively Lukes daughter] - one light and one dark.

With just the two of them, only then will the force be 'balanced' in accordance with the Prophesy.

The next episode will see Luke training Rey and Snoke training Kylo [it'll mirror Yodas training in ESB). Finn and Poe will almost certainly be captured by Kylo at the end of the film and tortured to draw Rey into a trap.

There will be a big reveal at the end of the film from either Luke or Kylo [No Rey YOU are my sister/ daughter!]. Luke probably dies [becoming a force spirit for the third film] at the end after doing something ridiculous with the force like standing alone and using Move object on a dozen TIE fighters at once and smoking a legion of Storm troopers - something equalling TFU levels of obscene power. Fans will lose their **** at this point in the film.

Third movie will have Rey taking down Snoke, and leading up to a showdown between Rey and Kylo. Probably featuring a new Starkiller superweapon derivative capable of galactic annhilation, with the fate of the entire galaxy resting on the epic final lightsaber duel.

Whosoever pulleth out this lightsaber of this stone and snowbank shall rightwise be crowned new main character born of Star Wars.

(I'm saying it was a plot thing, but also, has anyone with Force Sensitive ever not marked UtF "trained", regardless of whether the character has in fact been ICly trained in their backstory? I can see starting without Force Training but come on.)

There is a third option that the films are hinting quite strongly at.

Rey didnt just suddenly learn how to use rebuke and mind trick from nowhere.

The inference from the films is she was one of Luke's students at his academy, and also either Kylos sister or cousin [explains why he didnt kill her when he smoked the other padawans].

In other words, she has previously been trained, and then either had her mind wiped or forgotten about it/ blanked it out and been dumped on Jakku by Luke.

Rather then levelling up and spontanously learning rebuke and mind trick, Kylos messing with her mind [remember she only started tossing around force powers after he memory walked her] may have simply unlocked a few levels she had already attained as a young girl.

[Jayngfet]

Of course then we run into the issue that you're just assuming that they can roll above a 15 every single time if this is the case. Because for going through a star destroyer DC 25 per round is generous. That'd easily be 35 in terms of DC. Because if it isn't then nothing is.

If you seriously believe Rey can hit DC 35 multiple consecutive times at level one then I don't know what to tell you.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I can see where theyre headed with the story.

Two Skywalkers [for mine, Rey is Kylos twin brother - hidden from her father and mother at birth - if they maintain the mirroring of the OT, or alternatively Lukes daughter] - one light and one dark.

With just the two of them, only then will the force be 'balanced' in accordance with the Prophesy.

The next episode will see Luke training Rey and Snoke training Kylo [it'll mirror Yodas training in ESB). Finn and Poe will almost certainly be captured by Kylo at the end of the film and tortured to draw Rey into a trap.

There will be a big reveal at the end of the film from either Luke or Kylo [No Rey YOU are my sister/ daughter!]. Luke probably dies [becoming a force spirit for the third film] at the end after doing something ridiculous with the force like standing alone and using Move object on a dozen TIE fighters at once and smoking a legion of Storm troopers - something equalling TFU levels of obscene power. Fans will lose their **** at this point in the film.

Third movie will have Rey taking down Snoke, and leading up to a showdown between Rey and Kylo. Probably featuring a new Starkiller superweapon derivative capable of galactic annhilation, with the fate of the entire galaxy resting on the epic final lightsaber duel.

Okay, I liked TFA, and I'm not saying you're wrong, but I really hope they get away from just copying the plot points of the original trilogy starting with Ep VIII. It's already gotten kind of ridiculous. (Why did Starkiller Base even exist from a story perspective other than to be another Death Star? No reason whatsoever. It wasn't even connected to the initial conflict.)

All I'm expecting regardless is Skywalker Cousins and Training not-Montages in the second film, the second with more certainty than the first. Beyond that, I'd be very happy to see the plot go in a new direction. Also, hopefully given interview hints, Captain Phasma stepping up to the Big Bad Of The Movie role. She was more criminally underused than Max von Sydow.

There is a third option that the films are hinting quite strongly at.

Rey didnt just suddenly learn how to use rebuke and mind trick from nowhere.

The inference from the films is she was one of Luke's students at his academy, and also either Kylos sister or cousin [explains why he didnt kill her when he smoked the other padawans].

In other words, she has previously been trained, and then either had her mind wiped or forgotten about it/ blanked it out and been dumped on Jakku by Luke.

Rather then levelling up and spontanously learning rebuke and mind trick, Kylos messing with her mind [remember she only started tossing around force powers after he memory walked her] may have simply unlocked a few levels she had already attained as a young girl.

I can sort of see it, given that Rey seemed to "remember" where Luke was, or rather what the place looked like. I think it's a bit lame to go with deliberately-induced amnesia as a plot device (and a bit distressing to still go with the give-a-five-year-old-combat-training policy from the prequels) and would rather they didn't, but it's feasible.

[Jayngfet]

Yeah, Rey suddenly having a bunch of force training from five years old would be really, REALLY stupid.

Though to be fair a lot of TFA was stupid. Captain Phasma can never, EVER be a credible big bad when she got jumped without a fight, surrendered without any resistance, and got thrown in a garbage dump as a joke. It doesn't matter how skilled she is, she'll always be the garbage woman to me. Though to be fair Boba Fetts death was almost as bad, but he at least did a few things to actually establish his character as badass first like track down the Falcon.

But back to the discussion at hand, this reveals the fundamental problem I have with the Saga edition. Half the stuff you see main characters do is impossible to replicate without burning destiny points. I don't just mean like crazy stunts, but R2-D2's shock probe can't cut through Leiad chain on the sail barge without a destiny point and Max damage.

The raw fact of the matter is that Rey needs to be higher level because the only counter argument is "all her non combat skills she clearly has are fluff only and she rolled high enough to get a DC35 multiple times while using vehic combat at level ONE". Just like Luke needs to be like level fifteen minimum because he needs an entire second round of force training to replicate what he does in the film's by that point and beat Vader, who has almost double his Destiny Points, and that's not even getting into Starship Tactics, half of which are associated with or created by him.

Assuming that movie characters start out at level one, four to six levels lower than stock NPC's with the same background, is the worst assumptions one can make.

[Malifice]

Yeah, Rey suddenly having a bunch of force training from five years old would be really, REALLY stupid.

Though to be fair a lot of TFA was stupid. Captain Phasma can never, EVER be a credible big bad when she got jumped without a fight, surrendered without any resistance, and got thrown in a garbage dump as a joke. It doesn't matter how skilled she is, she'll always be the garbage woman to me. Though to be fair Boba Fetts death was almost as bad, but he at least did a few things to actually establish his character as badass first like track down the Falcon.

But back to the discussion at hand, this reveals the fundamental problem I have with the Saga edition. Half the stuff you see main characters do is impossible to replicate without burning destiny points. I don't just mean like crazy stunts, but R2-D2's shock probe can't cut through Leiad chain on the sail barge without a destiny point and Max damage.

The raw fact of the matter is that Rey needs to be higher level because the only counter argument is "all her non combat skills she clearly has are fluff only and she rolled high enough to get a DC35 multiple times while using vehic combat at level ONE". Just like Luke needs to be like level fifteen minimum because he needs an entire second round of force training to replicate what he does in the film's by that point and beat Vader, who has almost double his Destiny Points, and that's not even getting into Starship Tactics, half of which are associated with or created by him.

Assuming that movie characters start out at level one, four to six levels lower than stock NPC's with the same background, is the worst assumptions one can make.

Lando Calrissian is a 9th level scoundrel and he managed to fly the MF through a much tighter passage than Rey did.

There would be a few DC 20 pilot checks involved to do what she did in the movie. Thats about it. DC 25 at most. Considering she can spend a FP for +1d8 (she levels up after the fight, so use em or lose em) its not beyond the realms of possibility for her to pull it off.