Dragonball Super: So it begins - again

[Spamotron]

There's an idea for an interesting episode. Vegeta petitioning the Supreme Kai to visit Hell so he can make final amends with Nappa's soul.

[Rater202]

Someone on Tvtropes posited the theory that at some point after Ressurection F, when both Goku and Vegeta are literally gods, that they will employ the assistance of King Yemma as well as creative uses of both Earth and Namek's dragonballs

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Or the "Super Dragonballs" from universe 6

To restore Planet Vegeta and the Saiyans, and then use the fact that they're the two strongest saiyans in the universe to invoke Asskicking Equals Authority to force the Saiyan Race to clean up their collective acts and use their violent tendencies positively as a bulwark against the forces of Evil.

If it never makes it into Super, it'd make an awesome movie.

[Dienekes]

There's an idea for an interesting episode. Vegeta petitioning the Supreme Kai to visit Hell so he can make final amends with Nappa's soul.

What, why? I'm pretty sure Nappa is a big shot movie producer now.

More seriously, I don't think that's going to happen. Nappa was pretty evil, and on the list of things Veggie should feel guilt about, the planets he's destroyed, the innocents he's murdered. Killing one also evil guy is pretty small potatoes.

[Spamotron]

I don't know how the canon sits now but IIRC at one point King Vegeta Sr. distanced himself from Vegeta jr. in order to protect him from Frieza. During that time Nappa was his tutor and guardian. Nappa essentially raised Vegeta. Objectively many of the other things Vegeta did were higher on the scale of evil but it's harder to get more personal than murdering your surrogate father in cold blood.

[Jayngfet]

I don't know if that's canon now but as of Dragonball Minus it was actually Raditz who was with Vegeta at the time. Raditz wanted them to go back to the homeworld, but Vegeta figured it'd be better to just blow it off.

[Rater202]

That was in the Bardock special, which was only ever broad strokes canon in the main continuity.

[Jayngfet]

That was in the Bardock special, which was only ever broad strokes canon in the main continuity.

It was pretty much the only non-Toriyama thing that was ever canon. Except now that Toriyama has a bunch of other stuff he wants to do he's rewriting bits of it.

[Rater202]

You seem to have forgotten The Origin of Trunks, which is consistently treated as Canon but was not written by Toriyama.

[Gopher Wizard]

You seem to have forgotten The Origin of Trunks, which is consistently treated as Canon but was not written by Toriyama.

Do you mean History of Trunks?

I'm sorry if this sounds sarcastic/is a dumb question, but my knowledge of DB/DBZ/DBGT isn't great so for all I know there could be something called that.

[Jayngfet]

You seem to have forgotten The Origin of Trunks, which is consistently treated as Canon but was not written by Toriyama.

It really isn't. Several details in the film contradict what Toriyama put down in the manga.

[Rater202]

Do you mean History of Trunks?

I'm sorry if this sounds sarcastic/is a dumb question, but my knowledge of DB/DBZ/DBGT isn't great so for all I know there could be something called that.

Yes, that's what I meant.

It really isn't. Several details in the film contradict what Toriyama put down in the manga.

And those details are?

[Jayngfet]

And those details are?

Pretty much everything. Toriyama published his own Trunks origin that came before the movie and is radically different.

[Rater202]

• In the manga, Trunks is able to turn Super Saiyan before Gohan dies. In the anime, Trunks first transforms into a Super Saiyan after finding Gohan's dead corpse in a pool of blood.
• Gohan's fight where he loses his arm and his death in the manga chapter are not shown. However, in the anime, both his fight when he loses his arm, and his death against the Androids are both shown.
• Trunks' fight three years after Gohan's death is not shown in the manga. In the anime, Trunks' fight against both the Androids is shown in great detail.
• In the manga, Future Androids 17 and 18 are actually shown very briefly. In the anime, they are shown doing other activities outside of killing, such as riding carousels.

That's one detail changed. All of the other alterations are expansions.

One detail is not everything

[Mato]

BotG is apparently not canon

Anything the franchise's controller's make is canon to a certain degree.

I think you mean within the main continuity and trust me there is a huge difference. All previous movies exist in "separate dimensions" and DBS, being nothing more than an extended BoG, would be a part from that. And until real evidence proves otherwise, I'm inclined to agree that it's not part of the main story.

There was a manga chapter released a while ago which follows roughly the same plot as the first episode but with a few differences.

Yeah I noticed that too. I think it's a new way to drive state-sided people nuts too. The manga is an adaption of the anime, not the other way around, but hte manga is more closely worked on by the original author. It appears the anime will contain scenes to pad it's overall length whereas the manga will contain some additional insights on character motivation. Now try to imagine how well that'll go over in "canon" discussions when they disagree with each other about something (such as half a planet or the whole thing).

That's certainly one possibility. But there's something daunting about a thread that is nothing but a forest of spoiler boxes. I think it discourages new people from joining the thread.

What about underlined white text? Like tv tropes you can use crtl+a to highlight and read everything while still preserving the spoiler-like element.
Or you could do what I do. Read/watch the episode before reading discussions about it.

Quick question for those in the know: When will Resurrection F be out on DVD in the U.S.(in English)? I can't watch it online so please don't suggest that. I just did a quick search and Battle of the Gods is out, which is awesome, I'm going to have to convince the wifey to let me snag it here soon.

I know you said no online but Youtube isn't doing the best job of removing non-English films, including Res F, so you could just take a long lunch at McDonald's with a smart phone or Kindle.

Remember, Vegeta's character arc in the Buu saga ended with him realizing that he'd never surpass Goku and coming to terms with it.

Vegeta really has had more character development than anyone else in the series, it's really no surprise quite a few people wanted him to stand on his own in Res F.

[Spamotron]

What about underlined white text? Like tv tropes you can use crtl+a to highlight and read everything while still preserving the spoiler-like element.
Or you could do what I do. Read/watch the episode before reading discussions about it.

Doesn't work well with all monitor color settings and is kinda visible when quoted anyway.

Spoiler: episode 2

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That was a better episode that I was expecting. The preview made me worry that it would be all slapstick with Vegeta as the straightman. There was a little of that but not enough to wear out its welcome. Instead we get a good look inside Vegeta's head post-Buu. Becoming the strongest in the universe and surpassing Goku is still his chief motivation but its no longer the dangerous obsession it once was. Vegeta acknowledges that there are other things like family that are important too. So its a more healthy, friendly rivalry now. Funny study in contrasts in the previous episode its implied that Goku had to be browbeaten by ChiChi into spending time with his family where as for Vegeta it was his own idea.

[Jayngfet]

That's one detail changed. All of the other alterations are expansions.

One detail is not everything

Expansions by separate authors are not canon.



As for episode two, it really does give us a better idea of where we stand chronologically. For Vegeta to talk about that one specific conversation from before the last tournament then just be acting on it now means that basically no time has passed, at least compared to previous timeskips.

We also have a bit more characterization for Beerus going on. Beerus is dislikes body fat and uncomplex stupidity. I'd hazard that that they're setting him up to be a foil for eat-everything-don't-think Goku.

[Rater202]

You need to spoiler tag that.

[Jayngfet]

You need to spoiler tag that.

I said nothing specific, so I'm not going to bother.

[Psyren]

I'm not personally seeing anything spoiler-worthy out in the open but will use them if I drop anything plot-specific.

Doesn't work well with all monitor color settings and is kinda visible when quoted anyway.

Spoiler: episode 2

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That was a better episode that I was expecting. The preview made me worry that it would be all slapstick with Vegeta as the straightman. There was a little of that but not enough to wear out its welcome. Instead we get a good look inside Vegeta's head post-Buu. Becoming the strongest in the universe and surpassing Goku is still his chief motivation but its no longer the dangerous obsession it once was. Vegeta acknowledges that there are other things like family that are important too. So its a more healthy, friendly rivalry now. Funny study in contrasts in the previous episode its implied that Goku had to be browbeaten by ChiChi into spending time with his family where as for Vegeta it was his own idea.

Eh, while I liked that Vegeta has calmed down quite a bit from the hardline position that led to him going "Majin," I still wasn't super-thrilled at his portrayal here.

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He's still being unnecessarily cold to Bulma and just so wearily above it all. That one little day trip for Trunks is nominally a nice gesture, but he makes it so clear he doesn't want to be there that I can't imagine why Bulma wants to do anything with him. Shrugging her off, making his wife and son carry all the shopping, nearly losing it at the restaurant, then actually losing it at the beach - though at least he didn't vaporize the crowd this time - it all had shades of abuse to me that I can't quite shake. If it weren't for training to help him burn off all that excess rage he'd be impossible to live with. I much preferred the BoG Vegeta that was actually willing to go to far greater lengths for his family than seen here, and I'm hoping we get back around to that one over the course of Bills' arrival.

But his acknowledgement of Goku's superiority, and his resolve to train further - that I can get behind. I also like their divergent approaches to training - Goku's on another plane, using magical weights, reflecting his more spiritual upbringing in Dragonball, and Vegeta's use of technology-enhanced training as a callback to growing up under Freeza's rule. It's kind of cool to think that both paths to improvement are valid, and of course both men have dipped into the other's training well also.

[Spamotron]

I'm not personally seeing anything spoiler-worthy out in the open but will use them if I drop anything plot-specific.



Eh, while I liked that Vegeta has calmed down quite a bit from the hardline position that led to him going "Majin," I still wasn't super-thrilled at his portrayal here.

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He's still being unnecessarily cold to Bulma and just so wearily above it all. That one little day trip for Trunks is nominally a nice gesture, but he makes it so clear he doesn't want to be there that I can't imagine why Bulma wants to do anything with him. Shrugging her off, making his wife and son carry all the shopping, nearly losing it at the restaurant, then actually losing it at the beach - though at least he didn't vaporize the crowd this time - it all had shades of abuse to me that I can't quite shake. If it weren't for training to help him burn off all that excess rage he'd be impossible to live with. I much preferred the BoG Vegeta that was actually willing to go to far greater lengths for his family than seen here, and I'm hoping we get back around to that one over the course of Bills' arrival.

But his acknowledgement of Goku's superiority, and his resolve to train further - that I can get behind. I also like their divergent approaches to training - Goku's on another plane, using magical weights, reflecting his more spiritual upbringing in Dragonball, and Vegeta's use of technology-enhanced training as a callback to growing up under Freeza's rule. It's kind of cool to think that both paths to improvement are valid, and of course both men have dipped into the other's training well also.

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Eh, baby steps. Vegeta tried even though circumstances were pushing his buttons. Pre-Buu I don't think its something he would have attempted at all. Depending on how much of Battle of Gods stays the same we know he's about to face a trial that's going to push him even further on the road to becoming a better person.

On a different topic. Whis is just as bad as Beerus. We know how powerful he is and how amazing his scrying powers are. Odds are he could have trivially bagged his own dinosaur in the amount of time he spent arguing with the tribal champion. Who was totally justified in trying to defend his people from thieves BTW. For hunter-gathers like that one good or bad hunt can be the difference between life and death.

[Jayngfet]

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They're Villains. Did you seriously forget that pretty much everyone Goku knows except Krillin has tried to murder him and others at at least one point?

[Psyren]

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Eh, baby steps. Vegeta tried even though circumstances were pushing his buttons. Pre-Buu I don't think its something he would have attempted at all. Depending on how much of Battle of Gods stays the same we know he's about to face a trial that's going to push him even further on the road to becoming a better person.

On a different topic. Whis is just as bad as Beerus. We know how powerful he is and how amazing his scrying powers are. Odds are he could have trivially bagged his own dinosaur in the amount of time he spent arguing with the tribal champion. Who was totally justified in trying to defend his people from thieves BTW. For hunter-gathers like that one good or bad hunt can be the difference between life and death.

Actually, I think

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that planet was probably slated for destruction anyway. The whole "let me taste some of your food" song and dance is just a system Whis, Beerus or both came up with in order to determine which places to spare; since they have to destroy some planets, they might as well have a system.

In other words, it was far more about "will he share/offer his food to us, and is said food any good" than "can I take this food by force" (the answer to the latter being an obvious yes.)

[Rater202]

Spoiler: My Opinion on the topic

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Whis and Beerus are operating on Blue and Orange Morality.

They're just so jaded to planet destruction that they just don't see anything wrong with doing it casually.

since, you know, it is their Job.

I'm pretty certain that if Beerus wasn't meant to destroy that planet, Whis would have turned back time to fix it.

The way I see it, Beerus has to destroy planets, and in general he ends up destroying the ones he's supposed to( and Whis fixes the ones he wasn't supposed to)... But he can, at his choice, put off Destroying it indefinitely.(Like in BoG-he said that if Goku didn't defeat him, he'd destroy earth. But not then and there and not all of it at once)

Rather than force his Arbitrary views of morality on a planet like some other Planet destroyers do, he bases it on "Is the food good, and are the Leaders hospitable when a literal god is on their Doorstep-the second actually having a decent mythological basis to it.

It's not the best judgement, but it's far from the worst judgement.

I would, however, suspect that the Fat Kitty God, Champa, is supposed to be an evil and/or corrupt god of Destruction from a Different Universe.

And will possibly be one of the entities that's stronger than Whis and Beerus, to explain why they don't solve that problem.

[Jayngfet]

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The only flaw with that problem is the question of what could the residents of a stone age planet do that'd be so bad. It would take literal thousands of years for them to become big enough a threat to go off planet and they could just finish the job themselves then if it came to it.

If it was actually slated for destruction there'd probably be a method to their madness, but there doesn't really seem to be.

[Spamotron]

Spoiler: My Opinion on the topic

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I would, however, suspect that the Fat Kitty God, Champa, is supposed to be an evil and/or corrupt god of Destruction from a Different Universe.

And will possibly be one of the entities that's stronger than Whis and Beerus, to explain why they don't solve that problem.

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I guess a magazine just released? Champa huh? So I guess now that three make a pattern we know Toriyama's naming scheme for the gods. For people who haven't gotten it:
Beerus: Beer, Whis: Whiskey, Champa: Champagne

[Rater202]

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The only flaw with that problem is the question of what could the residents of a stone age planet do that'd be so bad. It would take literal thousands of years for them to become big enough a threat to go off planet and they could just finish the job themselves then if it came to it.

If it was actually slated for destruction there'd probably be a method to their madness, but there doesn't really seem to be.

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Maybe good or evil isn't necessarily the deciding factor(or at least, the only factor)

In BoG, Beerus makes a comment about destroying the earth helping it to realize it's potential.

It's possible that, say, four armed Caveman planet wasn't living up to it's full potential, and was thus, in the cosmic scheme, a waste of resources.

[Jayngfet]

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Maybe good or evil isn't necessarily the deciding factor(or at least, the only factor)

In BoG, Beerus makes a comment about destroying the earth helping it to realize it's potential.

It's possible that, say, four armed Caveman planet wasn't living up to it's full potential, and was thus, in the cosmic scheme, a waste of resources.

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Of course the obvious question is who gets to say what potential is and how it's lived up to, and how one judges.

Presuming of course that there is some kind of hidden depth to this, and it's not just exactly what it looks like. I mean Whis could have easily beaten up that random sushi chef if he needed do, and Beerus didn't exactly need to ask Buu if he wanted it.

[Rater202]

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Of course the obvious question is who gets to say what potential is and how it's lived up to, and how one judges.

Presuming of course that there is some kind of hidden depth to this, and it's not just exactly what it looks like. I mean Whis could have easily beaten up that random sushi chef if he needed do, and Beerus didn't exactly need to ask Buu if he wanted it.

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Exactly. There's more to it than what we see. There has to be.

[Jayngfet]

This is Toriyama we're talking about. There probably is no real deeper meaning to get. He's a comedy dude who happens to be writing action.

It's not like he's given us any super deep meanings for anything else in the past.

[Kato]

This is Toriyama we're talking about. There probably is no real deeper meaning to get. He's a comedy dude who happens to be writing action.

It's not like he's given us any super deep meanings for anything else in the past.

Yeah, I feel like agreeing with this. I like Toriyama as much as the next guy, but Dragonball is not One Piece, there's not some deep, serious theme to everything