Why does no one play Rifts?

[hiryuu]

I enjoy the concept. I would like to see a reboot done by someone with more of a background than "we needed to design a military so we watched GI Joe episodes while drunk" and "we don't know anything about the southern United States, so let's just blow them up" and maybe an art core that is really good at xenobio, engineering design, and I don't know, anything other than harsh line work (I am champion of harsh line work, so I have little room to complain >_>)?

For systems! I have run RIFTS™©® MEGAOMNISUPERVERSE™©® very well in Cartoon Action Hour. It was pretty fun. Also done it in Mutants & Masterminds, and with a very heavily house ruled d20 thingy. We even drummed up a few classes before we just decided to go with M&M.

As for the base system? Why do hadrosaurs have MDC? Why?

Love the heck out of the nice treatment given to Canada.

[Knaight]

I dont mind rifts so much, and I'm not the kind of person who stays away from the systems because of personal feelings about the author.

The thing about the personal feelings about the author is that it's not driving players away directly all that much. What it's doing is preventing the rest of the people in the industry from promoting RIFTS, and in an industry that lives by word of mouth, that's terrible for RIFT's chances of spreading. It's hard to play a game that you've never heard of, and that's where the author's personality is killing the popularity of the system.

[MeeposFire]

I do not know Rifts but I do own several Robotech RPG books which runs on that system. They looked like fun but I have not tried them yet. I wonder if they are any good?

[Telok]

I do not know Rifts but I do own several Robotech RPG books which runs on that system. They looked like fun but I have not tried them yet. I wonder if they are any good?

It's good. You still get the wonky skill system where taking boxing classes gives you another burst with an assault rifle each round and such things. But without the glitterboy froo-fraw, magic, psionics, and people with megadamage knives it's much more acceptable to people with loud internet opinions.

The base Palladium system is just as functional as AD&D or Traveller. It's just that Rifts is a full bore gonzo setting. In that respect it's like Paranoia or Toon, the players have to buy into the game and the GM has some work to do.

[Lord Torath]

I do not know Rifts but I do own several Robotech RPG books which runs on that system. They looked like fun but I have not tried them yet. I wonder if they are any good?

Me too. I loved Robotech as a kid, especially the Macross/SDF portion, and my wife really liked the Mospeda/Invid portion, so I collected most of the books. There used to be a website called Third Invid War that was pretty great (by Dave Deitrich), and resolved the "Return of the Invid" storyline, but I think he took it down. It wasn't compatible with the Shadow Chronicles, but it was still a really great piece of work. Maybe it's still available on the Wayback Machine.

But yeah, the most I ever did was make a few characters and run a test combat or two. Still something I'd love to try out.

[Philistine]

I dont mind rifts so much, and I'm not the kind of person who stays away from the systems because of personal feelings about the author.

The thing about the personal feelings about the author is that it's not driving players away directly all that much. What it's doing is preventing the rest of the people in the industry from promoting RIFTS, and in an industry that lives by word of mouth, that's terrible for RIFT's chances of spreading. It's hard to play a game that you've never heard of, and that's where the author's personality is killing the popularity of the system.

This is certainly true, and also:
I don't have any personal feelings about Siembieda one way or another. It may seem that way, though, because I've seen enough from him in his professional capacity as a game designer to recognize that his philosophy of gaming is basically incompatible with the kind of games I personally find enjoyable. This causes me to avoid his games - not because I think he's a jackass, but because I realized several years ago that I don't enjoy his games.

[Xaragos]

When you boil it down, a lot of Palladium is someone's House Rules for AD&D. They've modded them a couple of times, sometimes openly (switching from "Spells per day" to PPE, or the addition of MDC to emulate Robotech mecha), sometimes by stealth (whether on purpose or through inattention; see the "2 attacks for living" debate that they finally settled), but they remain very close to being rules for AD&D, where someone added an expanded skill system and active defenses.

The system is inelegant, because it's overseen by someone who doesn't really care about systems, he just runs the game. The lack of balance is viewed as a feature... you CAN play dirt-level hobos or you can play god-level conflicts, using the same rules. You can even have a dirt-level hobo contributing to the god-level conflicts in their own way.

There's a ton of good ideas in the books, but there's also a lot of vaporware from the company; every year, there are grand pronouncements of what's going to come out that year, and the targets are almost always missed. A lot of the good work comes out of freelancers, but they have a tendency not to stay... several have left loudly because of conflicts with Kevin or other staff members; others have left quietly, either going on to other things or simply deciding not to do that any more (I've pretty well stopped writing for Palladium, for various reasons I don't care to talk about; if I do anything, it's small and just an idea I wanted to work out).

For me, it is a system I've grown beyond. I actually still play in a semi-regular Palladium-based game (a Systems Failure game that's been going on for 10 years or so, with another person who did some freelance work for them), but we've long since left the company behind. I'm a bit interested in the possibilities of the Savage Worlds Rifts conversion that's coming out, but aside from a few sentimental books, I've divested of it. If I wanted to play Rifts, I'm more likely to drag out Rifts-alumnus Jason Richard's Breachworld, use some other universal system and "wing it" creating a new game, or just play something else that's kinda like it.

I just finished playing in a Savage Worlds: Deadlands campaign and I can say that I was definitely impressed. It is relatively easy to make a character. Combat can be intense and there are quite a few options for players. You can be everything from a Martial Artist to a techno-wizard. I too found that much of the afore mentioned systems were too unbalanced and complicated. Give Savage Worlds a try.

[Anonymouswizard]

I just finished playing in a Savage Worlds: Deadlands campaign and I can say that I was definitely impressed. It is relatively easy to make a character. Combat can be intense and there are quite a few options for players. You can be everything from a Martial Artist to a techno-wizard. I too found that much of the afore mentioned systems were too unbalanced and complicated. Give Savage Worlds a try.

Yeah, Savage Worlds is a game I'm most familiar with due to Evernight (mainly because I can't be asked to shell out for my own SW books and just pinched my dad's copy), but it does a reasonably good job of balancing the reasonably diverse characters you can make with it (I really want to try the miracles and weird science arcane backgrounds), and it flows fast. Plus cards for initiative is fun, although prey that your opponent's don't draw both jokers.

I'll possibly pick up the rifts conversion a year or two down the line, when my backlog is clear and my own game has finished alpha.

[LibraryOgre]

So I take it I should cancel my pre-order for Mysteries of Magic 2 then?

There's still plenty in the manuscript I sent them years ago to cover another two books of the size of Mysteries of Magic 1. They didn't touch diabolists, summoners, warlocks, most of my priest material, witches, druids, alchemists, psi-mystics...

[barna10]

RIFTS is a decent setting, but I agree the rules are ... lackluster. That being said, if your biggest gripe with the system is the Glitterboy, you obviously haven't played much or read much of the material.

I've played RIFTS since 1991, and NEVER has a player griped about the Glitterboy being over powered. In fact, no one ever plays one because they are awful. They can't fly, are slow, and only have one weapon.

I once had a headhunter that single-handedly took out the group's Glitterboy AND a Partial Conversion Borg in the same combat, and it was two-on-one, them against the Headhunter. The numbers are deceiving in Palladium and it takes awhile to realize this. Having a TON of MDC means NOTHING if you can't dish it out. And the Glitterboy can't. As someone pointed out, they need to anchor to shoot that big boom cannon; move behind them and they can't attack you. Destroy/disable the cannon, and they are useless. The Glitterboy boy armor is hardly worth getting bent out of shape about.

[Spamotron]

The rules for the Glitterboy's anchor system are poorly written and open to multiple interpretations. One GM will read of how they "deploy automatically when the gun fires," and interpret that it means that they're mostly fluff and don't actually affect the Glitterboy's mobility all that much because deploying and retracting them doesn't use an action. Another will read that the authors wouldn't have explicitly called out the need to deploy the anchors as a weakness unless they did cost an action to deploy and retract.

I often think that the Palladium system is actually pretty decent with some good ideas but is marred by positively terrible editing.

One of my favorites is how in Spirit West there's a paragraph about how Amerindian spirit fetishes can only be used by Indian Traditionalists. Then there's another line just a few pages later about how hardline traditionalists get pissed when the spirits sometimes give the fetishes to non-Indian heroes.

Take the two literally and sometimes Indian Spirits will sometimes give out a powerful magical fetish to say a white Cyber-Knight that is impossible for him to use.

To be fair that does sound like something tricksters like Coyote or Raven might do.

[barna10]

I often think that the Palladium system is actually pretty decent with some good ideas but is marred by positively terrible editing.

Good point.

Every RPG ever made has some flaws. Most try to fix those. Palladium is unique (in my experience) in that they blatantly ignore their own mistakes and REFUSE to correct them. Their high-horse is so high they can't see the peons below them.

The worst for me was the Crisis of Treachery when because of his own mismanagement, the company was ready to fold. Instead of using good business principals to work his way out of the hole, he begged for money from the fans. Not begging them to buy product, begging them to send donations! Maybe I've had it wrong all these years...maybe it's not a company...maybe it's the Church of Palladium...

[Telok]

Good idea people are not necessarily good writers.
Good writers are not necessarily good editors.
None of the above are necessarily good business people.

tldr: People are a problem.

[VincentTakeda]

2e ad&d was largely a result of the same thing happening to Gygax. He was out gaming and shaking hands with the public while the folks running the company finances were doing their own thing. Good gamers and good game designers not having great business sense is a pretty good way to put it, yeah.

Kevin may be his own unique breed but palladium is still kickin and doing well for itself as far as I know though. I see no trouble marching to the beat of a differrent drummer if it keeps your books in the black and doesnt damage the industry or take advantage of its employees.

If d&d 1e were OGL then Kevin would be very similar in nature to every modern day kickstarter style game designer hoping to translate his homebrew into a paycheck. I hold Kevin in the same esteem I hold Gygax. A guy who loves gaming, is decent at game design, and maybe not so hot at keeping his business partners from doing what greedy people are good at... Playing with the money while these gamers are out playing the game.

Game development wise I'd still say zeb did a better job with the decades of playtesting that went into putting 2e together. So 2e and heroes unlimited are still my systems of choice to this day. Zeb, Greenwood, and Wujcik are my guys. Kevin and Gygax are gamers first, businessmen second. I respect gamer first, troubles and all.

[LibraryOgre]

The rules for the Glitterboy's anchor system are poorly written and open to multiple interpretations.

With that edit, you have a general statement for Palladium.

[mabriss lethe]

I'm going to second what most everyone else is saying. Rifts is a fun world to play in, but a god-awful game system. It actually seems to work better the more rules you ignore. On the odd occasion I actually run a Rifts game, I wind up stripping out a lot of rules just to make it playable in a reasonable timespan.

One of my ongoing pet projects is what I've jokingly called my Nickel system. (both for the Periodic table reference and because it's definitely the discount version) I gut the Palladium system down to its bare bones and then rebuild it into something quick and elegant. Its...not coming along very well. The core mechanics were easy enough, but systemizing some way to quickly port over even a fraction of the ungodly number of OCCs is daunting.

[Telok]

As I read it (haven't gotten to play it, sad-face) the actual Palladium game seems a nice solid fantasy game with a decent system and better combat than D&D (parry & dodge are real things at least). But without really playing it I can't say how well the magic and psionic systems interact with it. Likewise Robotech is decent and doesn't have the reputation that Rifts does even though the system is something like 90%+ exactly the same.

I think it's the combo of magic & psi getting shoehorned into the Robotech system (not really well either) and giving MDC to non-mecha-level critters and weapons. The whole mash up of everything in one place seems to be the biggest mechanical issue. Well, except the skills, those aren't well done at all.

mabriss lethe: How did you handle the skills? I think you can simplify the OCCs a lot without really losing anything. Lots of them are really just skill bundles with a few aditional +# thrown on for various stuff and different starting gear. All the mundane pilot, soldier, scholar, OCCs work that way if I recall correctly. After that it's mostly the RCCs, borgs, juicers, and magic/psi users.

[Milodiah]

I play Rifts. I enjoy it.

The fact that it gets around the fact that it's janky and broken by making everything janky and broken is wonderfully absurd and I adore it.

[mabriss lethe]

mabriss lethe: How did you handle the skills? I think you can simplify the OCCs a lot without really losing anything. Lots of them are really just skill bundles with a few aditional +# thrown on for various stuff and different starting gear. All the mundane pilot, soldier, scholar, OCCs work that way if I recall correctly. After that it's mostly the RCCs, borgs, juicers, and magic/psi users.

Here are some of the broad strokes of the changes I'm working with. In the last iteration, I removed most of the individual skills and replaced them with the base skill groups. Some individual skills were left alone and some groups were split into smaller groups if it felt right. It's not perfect, but it still functions pretty well. Skills now have a single standard for percentile bonuses based on what type of skill they are for the OCC and level. (occ/related/secondary/other) Since most secondary bonuses from physical skills were removed when I made the change, I gave relevant OCCs a few bonus sdc and attribute points to compensate where appropriate. I removed things like boxing and fencing skills entirely and wrapped them into a simplified Hand to Hand system. I also reduced the different attribute scales from whatever ungodly number to 2. instead of normal/ augmented/ robotic/ supernatural/ puppy/ lolwtf, I simplified the scales down to "standard" and "powered." I simplified the magic/psionic system by having everything run off of PPE. (and combining PPE and ISP pools into one resource where appropriate. Converting ISP to PPE on a point for point basis worked well enough.) I left the MDC system basically alone, but allowed for a "called shot" rule that would let a SDC weapon deal minor MDC.

[LibraryOgre]

Here are some of the broad strokes of the changes I'm working with. In the last iteration, I removed most of the individual skills and replaced them with the base skill groups. Some individual skills were left alone and some groups were split into smaller groups if it felt right. It's not perfect, but it still functions pretty well. Skills now have a single standard for percentile bonuses based on what type of skill they are for the OCC and level. (occ/related/secondary/other) Since most secondary bonuses from physical skills were removed when I made the change, I gave relevant OCCs a few bonus sdc and attribute points to compensate where appropriate. I removed things like boxing and fencing skills entirely and wrapped them into a simplified Hand to Hand system. I also reduced the different attribute scales from whatever ungodly number to 2. instead of normal/ augmented/ robotic/ supernatural/ puppy/ lolwtf, I simplified the scales down to "standard" and "powered." I simplified the magic/psionic system by having everything run off of PPE. (and combining PPE and ISP pools into one resource where appropriate. Converting ISP to PPE on a point for point basis worked well enough.) I left the MDC system basically alone, but allowed for a "called shot" rule that would let a SDC weapon deal minor MDC.

Somewhat in line with some stuff I wrote a while ago...

http://rpgcrank.blogspot.com/2015/07...ll-monkey.html

http://rpgcrank.blogspot.com/2015/07...at-styles.html

[Raimun]

I have no knowledge of the game. That might explain why I've never played it.

[Lord Torath]

Robotech question: Does my W.P. Assault Rifle apply to the GU-11 gunpod my veritech is holding? Or does the Weapons Systems skill cover that?

[LibraryOgre]

Robotech question: Does my W.P. Assault Rifle apply to the GU-11 gunpod my veritech is holding? Or does the Weapons Systems skill cover that?

Answer unclear, try again later.

That said, I generally let folks in Robotech Mecha use their WP with hand-held weapons for their mecha... especially since they created "Mecha Su Dai" in "Return of the Masters"

[Max™]

I always liked the S.D.C. settings more for playing, and I loved/started out with Heroes Unlimited back in the day anyways. I loved the settings, the fluff, the ridiculous little details like what sort of art supplies a given shop in a little town might have.

The mechanics though, well, once I tried M&M I put the Palladium system out of my head entirely. I used to have character archetypes I'd chase and try to make "right" with the Palladium systems. Took me a few minutes with Hero Lab to get them down as I had always wanted in M&M.

The way I actually ran games in HU/Rifts/Robotech was more like M&M anyways, so I'm not sure I can blame anything but being stubborn and loving the setting sourcebooks for keeping me from checking out M&M before I did.

[dream]

I always liked the S.D.C. settings more for playing, and I loved/started out with Heroes Unlimited back in the day anyways. I loved the settings, the fluff, the ridiculous little details like what sort of art supplies a given shop in a little town might have.

The mechanics though, well, once I tried M&M I put the Palladium system out of my head entirely. I used to have character archetypes I'd chase and try to make "right" with the Palladium systems. Took me a few minutes with Hero Lab to get them down as I had always wanted in M&M.

The way I actually ran games in HU/Rifts/Robotech was more like M&M anyways, so I'm not sure I can blame anything but being stubborn and loving the setting sourcebooks for keeping me from checking out M&M before I did.

If you like superhero games, check out Champions as well. While not as fast as M&M, Champions is more organized and consistent.