Middle Earth WW: The Two Towers

[Xihirli]

What's the usual procedure in that case?

Rocks fall, everyone's lynched.

[Ramsus]

Standard procedure is that whoever got to the tied number first gets lynched. So if I (or whoever) was the one who switched it from 7 Luizeu & 5 Vecna to 6 Luizeu & 6 Vecna.... normally nothing different would occur, Luizeu would get lynched, and I wouldn't read as a wolf from that because if I was paying attention I wouldn't have thought my vote would by itself change the outcome.

[Logic]

Day 3 Ends

TFT was lynched, and was a villager.

Night 3 Begins

Apologies for the lateness of the end of the day.

[Zar Peter]

Well, I'm pretty sure that Thematthew is lying and is a wolf. I scried him as Gimli, a mason and contacted him. He confirmed that he's a mason but insisted on being Aragon. That would mean two things: I'm the fool and Thematthew is a wolf.

Seer, if you are active, scry Lex-Kat. From the words Thematthew used I'm pretty sure he is in contact with her.

Sorry Lex if this turns out to be again a scryer/wolf thing between us two but... I didn't scry you

[Ramsus]

Uh... Zar? Did you forget how fools work? You can scry someone as anything, you don't scry specific things as specific other things. So just because you scried him as the wrong mason doesn't make him a wolf. Though certainly you are a fool.

Well actually thinking about it, considering we have no proof you are what you say you are and you're claiming a claimed mason who hasn't been counterclaimed is a wolf.... the more likely situation is that you're a wolf. Either way, you've certainly got my vote tomorrow unless a better candidate is revealed. A wolf is a good lynch and a fool who doesn't understand how their role works isn't of any value to town.

[Zar Peter]

Uh... Zar? Did you forget how fools work? You can scry someone as anything, you don't scry specific things as specific other things. So just because you scried him as the wrong mason doesn't make him a wolf. Though certainly you are a fool.

Well, at least the seer knows that he's the seer. And that I scried a Mason as Mason, but as the wrong one would be a coincindence I didn't take into account so far... and one I won't belive as long as it's not proved otherwise.

Well actually thinking about it, considering we have no proof you are what you say you are and you're claiming a claimed mason who hasn't been counterclaimed is a wolf.... the more likely situation is that you're a wolf. Either way, you've certainly got my vote tomorrow unless a better candidate is revealed. A wolf is a good lynch and a fool who doesn't understand how their role works isn't of any value to town.

Actually the only response for this should be to shake my head. And I deleted a lot of responses.

[Legato Endless]

If Zar is the fool however, that means with the death of the alpha the seer can network without fear. That said, there's a small possibly of tracking or other shenanigans being in this game, so the seer probably shouldn't be following any advice but their own currently.

[Lex-Kat]

Well, I'm pretty sure that Thematthew is lying and is a wolf. I scried him as Gimli, a mason and contacted him. He confirmed that he's a mason but insisted on being Aragon. That would mean two things: I'm the fool and Thematthew is a wolf.

Seer, if you are active, scry Lex-Kat. From the words Thematthew used I'm pretty sure he is in contact with her.

Sorry Lex if this turns out to be again a scryer/wolf thing between us two but... I didn't scry you

Wait, why am I the test scry? But yeah, go ahead and scry me. I have nothing to hide.

[Zar Peter]

Wait, why am I the test scry? But yeah, go ahead and scry me. I have nothing to hide.

It's just that Thematthew asked me if I have scried you in this game. The way he did let me inlcined to believe that he knew the story of the last two games between us wich led me to believe that you could be in contact with him since I didn't recall me seeing him in these particular games.

[Ramsus]

I've seen at least two games (I think) recently where a fool has scried someone as their correct role. Thus I find it not at all surprising that a fool could scry someone as a close to, but not correct role. I also know that Zar Peter has been playing with us here long enough to know this is a possibility too. So it smells really off when he's using a supposed fool scry as a reason that anyone must be anything.

[Xihirli]

Okay, since I'm about to be lynched, I'm going to put my main thought out there:

I'm pretty sure that at least one of legato and thematthew is probably a wolf, due to the fact that neither of them jumped on the luizeu bandwagon it felt like they both pushed my wagon in an attempt to save luizeu, but purposely ignored the wagons on each other to push a second wagon. I was really hoping we could find a way to deal with next day phase and was hoping that a CFD on Indarra would buy us the time, but that clearly isn't happening.

I'm also somewhat suspicious of ramsus, but there isn't anything I can point to other then his vote on the avatar bandwagon to use as evidence.

I really don't trust thematthew's claim, and I hope if he is faking a mason comes out and counterclaims.

Good luck team village. With the amount of confusion this game we're going to need it.

EDIT: I would still like to draw attention to the fact that the bandwagon on me is still probably to be a scapegoat for others on the avatar wagon. Once I flip villager, please spend time figuring out that wagon. It's important.

The only person who we know for sure is Town and left a good message has stated that he believes that either Legato or Thematthew is a wolf. Thematthew is a claimed Mason. I believe this claim of Fool, and one key thing that I know about the Fool is that the Fool is town. The best lynch for tomorrow is Legato. If Legato turns up wolf, I doubt that Ramsus is a wolf, since I don't think Luizeu would have two veterans (though I could be wrong). If Legato turns up villager, my next suggested lynch is Ramsus.

[Thematthew]

Hmmm... I don't know, I have no real lead here. Maybe... the only two who pointed at the same person two days in a row where Lex-Kat, who pointed at FC and Visor, who pointed at Murska. I don't really want to lead a lynch against Lex-Kat because... well, there are reasons but I didn't find much helpful from Visor. Nice posts, a bunch, but not really telling.I point at Visor, like he mentioned it day 1

Yes Zar, I asked if you scried Lex because... well I bolded reasons. But as can be clearly seen in the quicktopic I made for you, before you decided I'm a wolf (http://www.quicktopic.com/51/H/ivn7aqnuCaC9), you scried someone else. Which makes me automatically suspicious of your "reasons" by the way.

And you're right, you haven't seen me in those other games because this is my thirdish game here (let's be honest MatA counts as 1+ a dry run, and I'm not sure if CC:NT really counts) so you haven't seen me before. Ever.

Hell, I don't actually know anything about you except your voting patterns this game (which my fellowship can attest I have extensive records of the voting records) and that you apparently trust Lex for no explicable reason. Maybe you're naive, maybe you're an orc/the devil. I have no clue, but what I do know right now is that I have a screenshot of that quicktopic in case you decide to change it and that I'm a mason so the people I completely trust can be trusted.

Oh, and that 6 unique machines viewed that quicktopic, so... let's have a chance to read into that...

[Lex-Kat]

Zar's reason for not wanting to lead a lynch against me is that he has been doing so on a semi-consistent basis thus far, and I've been guilting him for it. He's scried me the last two games we've been in, and gotten me lynched. I think he's just afraid to do so again, is all. I can't say for certain if he's a Wolfy or not, butI can vouch that he is not naïve, but a really smart and fun player.

And no, Core Component doesn't count, at least I don't see it as a WW game, as there are no villains and heroes in it. We are all out for ourselves in that one.

[Thematthew]

Fair enough Lex. I just don't like that he chose to do this during the night phase when actions haven't even been solidified.

[Elenna]

I'm confused. What is the reasoning behind asking the seer to scry Lex? Zar said he didn't scry her, so it doesn't confirm anything?

[Thematthew]

He thought that my reading into his statement of not wanting to lynch Lex meant that I was in contact with her, which was not the case. Following that to his continued incorrect assumption that I'm not a mason would mean that she should be checked to make sure she isn't a wolf.

[Maleceptor]

It seems a tad too convenient that when legato and ramsus are the prime suspects this whole nonsense of Zar being a fool, claiming against matthew pops up, At night time no less. At least in my eyes. Or it could just be a breakthrough the village needed and we're doomed if we don't jump on the bandwagon(s).

My question to Zar is: What is your character name? Frodo and sam translated to lovers, Legolas to mason, Or. Are you just told you're gandalf or something like that?

Legato or Ramsus is getting my vote tomorrow. What Xihirli recommended seems good to me. But i guess we'll just have to wait and see how tonight unfolds.

EDIT: I'd also like to ask if this quick topic thing can be trusted.

[Thematthew]

Now that that one has been publicly posted, it might as well be part of the thread. But normally qts are trustworthy as not easily spied on, which is why they're used for mason chat and other forms of communication with the narrator typically.

[Ramsus]

I'm still not seeing any basis for why I or Legato are suspects, let alone supposedly the "prime*" ones, considering the fact that we're some of the only people not saying or doing things that contradict ourselves or making incredibly poor logical arguments or acting just plain shady.

*(Which is still only true if you take the word of like four people and ignore what everyone else might be thinking. And not a single of those people has offered anything that adds up to more than "because my gut says so and I refuse to look at logical arguments for anyone else".)

[Xihirli]

I'm still not seeing any basis for why I or Legato are suspects, let alone supposedly the "prime*" ones, considering the fact that we're some of the only people not saying or doing things that contradict ourselves or making incredibly poor logical arguments or acting just plain shady.

*(Which is still only true if you take the word of like four people and ignore what everyone else might be thinking. And not a single of those people has offered anything that adds up to more than "because my gut says so and I refuse to look at logical arguments for anyone else".)

So you don't contradict yourself AND there haven't been any logical reasons for being suspicious of you.

Whut. That's not even remotely true. People are just less uncertain about it when they randomly choose to distrust or trust me. (Regardless of whether they should or not.)

Though your statement about the chance Luizue picking me is probably the first logical reason anyone has actually given for being suspicious of me. Only issue with that, is that Luizeu didn't know I was part of the network for that game at the start of this one. I point out that you yourself mistakenly handed Murska all the credit for what our network in the game (that for 90% of it's existence didn't even include Murska) accomplished. So..... yeah why aren't people way more suspicious of you? You keep oscillating between self voting and finding a new excuse to vote for someone else and providing reasons to be suspicious of people that don't actually hold up on examination.

*looks at TFT telling people not to trust a claimed mason* What are you even trying to accomplish there?

Edit: I know this is probably insane for some reason or another, but would it actually be bad to tie Xihirli and TFT and lynch both of them? Right now I find the chances that one or both of them are a wolf pretty high. And one of them dying in no way clears the other. We'll basically just waste another day sometime soon on the other one and meanwhile giving the wolves plenty of time to push wagons onto people who we shouldn't be suspicious of. (Like say people who turn out to actually be masons.)

Ramsus, you started a wagon on Luizeu and then abandoned it. Wolves often try to vote for each other, as you have pointed out. You also voted for me, partially because I voted for Vecna and had voted for Luizeu earlier. So, you almost saved Sauron by taking a vote away from him and giving it to Frodo AND every argument for why I'm suspicious (except the self-lynching) ALSO applies to you. Legato is trying to get the person who killed Sauron lynched for killing Sauron. That's the main reason I suspect him. There's also the bit where I suspect Luizeu chose a really good player, someone in the league of you, Murska, and Legato. Either Legato's a harmful villager or an Evil.

http://www.quicktopic.com/51/H/S5pciEP3k25:
"Hey, ThePhantom you'll have to show us the ways. I've never started a game as a wolf before. Any hints?"
That's what Luizeu said at the beginning of the game when we were wolves together. Since we didn't get any hints or any better at being wolves that game, it would have been a really bad idea for him to go forward without Veterans. WIFOM or not, Luizeu had to pick someone who was actually good at being a wolf.

FURTHER, I would like to point out that Legato and Ramsus aren't currently arguing for their own innocence or coming up with any of these "logical arguments for anyone else." Rather, they are using ad hominem arguments stating that their opponents are blathering, illogical lynch-mongers without actually supporting this in any way.

Nonsense. Ramsus is town. My flipping town should strengthen that position, not weaken it.

Go find a new theory. You're hyper focusing.

You flipping town would prove Ramsus innocent? How does that work? At all? My argument for how Luizeu would choose at least one of the other wolves hasn't really had anything go against it. Based on Luizeu's behavior the last (and ONLY) time he was a wolf, he likes to have at least one active veteran on his side. The active veterans in this game are Ramsus, Legato, and Murska. Luizeu believed last game that the Murska constant would keep him from being a threat for too long. That leaves Legato and Ramsus. He only needs one veteran. Therefore, each veteran who turns town makes the others more likely to be wolves. Saying that you being town supports Ramsus's innocence without anything to back you up frankly seems desperate.

[Legato Endless]

The only person who we know for sure is Town and left a good message has stated that he believes that either Legato or Thematthew is a wolf. Thematthew is a claimed Mason. I believe this claim of Fool, and one key thing that I know about the Fool is that the Fool is town. The best lynch for tomorrow is Legato. If Legato turns up wolf, I doubt that Ramsus is a wolf, since I don't think Luizeu would have two veterans (though I could be wrong). If Legato turns up villager, my next suggested lynch is Ramsus.

Nonsense. Ramsus is town. My flipping town should strengthen that position, not weaken it.

Go find a new theory. You're hyper focusing.

[Elenna]

@Xihirli: If Luizeu and ThePhantom don't object, could you post that QT in the MatA thread?

Nonsense. Ramsus is town. My flipping town should strengthen that position, not weaken it.

Can you explain this statement? Because right now it makes no sense to me. We have a decent reason to believe that Luizeu would choose at least one more experienced player, and we have decent reason to believe that there was at least one wolf voting to kill AV given how close the wagons were. You and Ramsus are both in those two groups. (Well, I'm not 100% certain of how experienced everyone is, correct me if I'm wrong on that part). I'd definitely say that your flipping town would make Ramsus more suspicious, and vice versa.

[Ramsus]

Wow Xihirli, way to edit the facts to suit the story you're trying to push as true. Think anyone buys it? Gods I'd hope not.

So yeah, let's see I voted for Elenna as a trap to get wolves jumping on easy bandwagons. This then worked, which without half the people who voted for Luizeu wouldn't have done so so it's safe to actually give me at least partial credit for him getting lynched whether I was on the wagon at the end of the day or not. What kind of idiot would I have to be to set a trap for members of my own team AND point it out publicly? And then I voted for him when I noticed he fit as someone who fell for said trap. So now I'm the kind of idiot who set a trap for my own teammate, pointed it out, AND helped push their wagon? What? The only reason I wasn't on his wagon at the end of the day was because thematthew (WHO IS A CLAIMED MASON WITH NO COUNTERCLAIM AT THIS POINT WHICH PRETTY MUCH MEANS HE IS 100% FOR SURE A MASON IN CASE YOU HAVEN'T FIGURED THAT OUT YET) offered Luizeu a bargain to avoid him getting lynched, and I joined in on that because I was more sure thematthew wasn't a wolf than I was that Luizeu was/that we would be able to avoid thematthew getting lynched. So that's DAY 2 where I correctly identified a wolf AND a not-wolf. So yeah clearly I am SUPER suspicious, what with having only done things that were pro-town so far. *rolls eyes*

Then on night 1 we have a kill everyone who has played even a single game with me in the last year knows I wouldn't have approved of. Which I then condemned the wolf team for doing. Maybe some of you are the kind of people who would argue with your team not to do something and then publicly try and shame them because you didn't get your way. But I dare you to say that I am and convince everyone else I've played with here that's true. Want to take bets on how many people will take your side on that?

Also seriously sir, you are a liar. Neither Legato nor I are making ad hominem attacks on anyone. And we have made logical arguments, repeatedly, for why other people are good or bad targets as well as making logical defenses for ourselves. You have basically just started name calling at this point in the hopes that you can convince people that the opposite of what has occurred is the truth. I can assure you that nobody appreciates this. So yeah, thanks for ruining the non-hostile atmosphere we were all enjoying.

@Elenna: Both Legato and I have stood by arguments that the other is unlikely to be a wolf. If one of us flips town, that means we for sure actually meant what we were saying. Given that Xihirli is using the argument that we're experienced players = we must be wolves even if all the evidence points to the contrary conclusion, I think it's fair for me to say that given that we're experienced players that we have good reasons to hold those opinions.

[Zar Peter]

My reason for claiming at night is that: I turned out to be fool for sure, so why hide?
And my role description is Gandalf / Pippin so I think I will lean back, smoke my pipe and wait for the wizard to rescue me.

[Logic]

Night 3 has ended

The morning comes, and no one can find Elenna. What you can find is a lot of blood, and a wizard hat. A seer/fool has died.

Day 4 Begins

[Ramsus]

Well I'm going to vote for Xihirli since he stands out as the person pushing misinformation and chaos the strongest. And honestly because he made me kind of angry.

[Zar Peter]

This is bad. Grats to the wolves, anyway. I may do that, I'm the fool.

I still think that I'm right about Thematthew but I wait with my point until further discussion.

And I want to contradict Lexs statement: I am naive and I'm not a good player. At least in my eyes. I play for fun, though, so the other part may be right

[Thematthew]

Murska, because that was the last person Elanna told me to target, as can be attested to by people whom I shared this information with.

[Visor]

What were her peeks matthew?

(If any wolf peeks).

If she has villager peeks don't reveal them until there is only one mason left imo.

[Thematthew]

o given the lack of a counterclaim, I'm going to trust that you really are a mason. Also, claiming mason would be a pretty bad strategy for wolves.

I have evidence that very strongly suggests that Murska is an orc. I'd prefer not to tell you the source just yet, in case by some strange chance you aren't actually a mason, but if you lynch him you'll see that I'm telling the truth.

Only one she sent to me

edit: very important factor is that I have duty tomorrow, so my access to the game may be very limited until Wednesday afternoon. I'm sorry, but I have no control of this.