An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time! *golf clap*

[Anteros]

For what it's worth, I figured out the thing everyone's talking about at least 4 books ahead of time. It was blindingly obvious.

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Egwene dying was fairly obvious. I don't think her magically fixing the pattern with reverse balefire was foreshadowed at all. At least not outside of AMoL itself. Also, the statement of mine you're quoting was not in regards to the event in the books but rather Mato's insistence that the scene was intended to be interpreted in the most misogynistic way possible.

[Gnoman]

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Egwene dying was fairly obvious. I don't think her magically fixing the pattern with reverse balefire was foreshadowed at all. At least not outside of AMoL itself. Also, the statement of mine you're quoting was not in regards to the event in the books but rather Mato's insistence that the scene was intended to be interpreted in the most misogynistic way possible.

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I did not grasp that part of your comment. As for the other, the concept of an inverted weave is a direct flow from one of the core themes of the series that for every light there is a shadow, for every hot there is a cold, etc. If a weave of incredible destructive power exists, an equally creative weave must also exist.

[Kitten Champion]

Egwene is able to channel the Saidar, and of course she is a prodigy, able to do on her first try what most new Aes Sedai take months to learn. This a trope in fantasy that bugs me. The heroes are able, with only the smallest amount of training, to surpass people who have dedicated their lives to a craft. Apparently being a hard worker is no match for just being super duper speshul. Now, there are times when it works, especially when the talented character gets off to a head start but the hard worker eventually overtakes them because they dedicate themselves to getting better. Other times though, it makes everyone who's not the hero just seem worthless. Looking at you, DBZ. I'll withhold judgement on this series for now, but I will say that Egwene has not grown on me at all. I think she's kind of annoying.

This is a... common thing in WoT. Whether you can accept it or not depends on whether you find the metaphysics of the universe compelling or merely an excuse for massive conveniences by the author.

[Gnoman]

In this case, however, it's not exactly the common trope. To summarize Moraine's exposition here:

There are three kinds of women in the world.

1. Women who cannot channel at all.
2. Women who can learn to channel.
3. Women who can't not channel.

The vast majority of women belong in category 1 - they can't use Saidar in any way, shape, or form.
The vast majority of the remainder belong in category 2 - without training, they'll never touch the power, but if they study and train, they'll develop the ability.
The tiny, tiny remainder will begin to channel at some point, usually in late adolescence. Without training, the power will kill them unless they learn to master it themselves, which is very unlikely.

Egwene is in category 3. She's already channeling at a very low level with no control over it - when she's doing "what most women at the tower spend months to learn" she's not showing any great skill, it's just that the women she's being compared to are category 2s that had to spend months training just to be able to touch the power at all.

As a crude analogy that breaks down very quickly, in D&D terms, most Aes Sedai are Wizards, and Egwene's a Sorcerer.

[Douglas]

The word's been mentioned before, but I just have to comment on it here. Servants of Shai'tan go by the name of Darkfriends. Darkfriends, really? Was there already a group called the Badfellas, so you had to go with something even less scary sounding? It sounds like something out a children's show. It is impossible for me to be scared of people with such a silly name.

It's the short form of "Friends of the Dark". Not sure if that's any better. And no, most of them really aren't very scary. Most of them.

In any case, almost no one ever refers to Shai'tan by his actual name because doing so causes Bad Things to happen to you. Kind of makes me wonder how knowledge of it hasn't faded away over the millennia with people not learning it because they never hear it.

For other terms in the same general direction, the overall category for the various monsters is Shadowspawn. And yes, there is a rather strong darkness/shadow theme to evil things (or at least their names) in this series.

Saidin is cursed by Shai'tan and can't be used safely. Any man who uses it dies.

Moiraine's description on that here is a bit excessively shortened and simplified. They typically go insane first. What happened to Lews Therin in the prologue (before Elan Morin showed up) is a reasonably representative example. And that, not their inevitable death, is why people are shocked, horrified, and scared by the idea of a man channeling.

Apparently being a hard worker is no match for just being super duper speshul.

I await your opinion on the concept of ta'veren when that gets explained.

Now, there are times when it works, especially when the talented character gets off to a head start but the hard worker eventually overtakes them because they dedicate themselves to getting better. Other times though, it makes everyone who's not the hero just seem worthless. Looking at you, DBZ. I'll withhold judgement on this series for now, but I will say that Egwene has not grown on me at all. I think she's kind of annoying.

Talent gets you some. Hard work gets you some. Both together is what legends are made of.

You'd have to give the "hero" label to a rather extremely lengthy list of people for everyone not on it to seem worthless in this series.

Without training, the power will kill them unless they learn to master it themselves, which is very unlikely.

As I recall it's about a 75% chance of death.

[Kitten Champion]

Also just to add onto the Darkfriend point, the common speech of WoT's contemporary setting is a decayed/progressed version of that used in the Age of Legends of Lews Therin's time. This is something that will come up frequently, how names of things change with generations and generally to become much more blunt.

Darkfriends are called a number of things by different cultures just as the Dark One is, and they roughly all mean the same thing.

[Anteros]

There's also the fact that darkfriends didn't exactly choose that name. They tend to call themselves things like "followers of the great lord" or "chosen" or other such stuff. Darkfriend is more of an derogatory term used by the good guys.

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I did not grasp that part of your comment. As for the other, the concept of an inverted weave is a direct flow from one of the core themes of the series that for every light there is a shadow, for every hot there is a cold, etc. If a weave of incredible destructive power exists, an equally creative weave must also exist.

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That really doesn't follow within the system as presented though. There are tons of weaves with no possible opposite. Gateways, shields, compulsion, etc. Rand doesn't put out a fire by countering the weave for it, he sucks the heat into himself and sends it elsewhere. He doesn't counter a lightning bolt by creating an opposite charge, he just blocks it. If you're going to base the climax of a series around a plot point like "every weave has an opposite" you need to actually introduce that plot point more than 3 paragraphs before the climax. Just tacking it on the end with no foreshadowing was poor writing.

[Feytalist]

A first-time Wheel of Time reading? I shall be following with great interest.

Although I am slightly worried about how long it's going to take. One chapter summary at a time? We're going to be here for ever. I have faith in you, however, OP

Also let me add my voice to the "holy ****, guys, spoilers" crowd.

Spoiler: Regarding Sanderson

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I do think that in general Sanderson did a decent job wrapping up such a long and detailed series. It can't have been an easy task, and for the most part he seems to have kept to Jordan's tone and theme reasonably well - certain original characters, odd characterisations and plot points aside.

Also remember that Jordan apparently left quite detailed notes for the eventual climax of the books, and if memory serves actually wrote the ending himself. While I'm not sure exactly what part he wrote, not all of those odd plot points can be lain at Sanderson's feet.

However. I feel like he completely mischaracterised a couple of characters, Mat being the most glaring example. Sanderson has this character archtype which he seems to include in most of his own works; a sort-of snarky, laid-back rogue character. He essentially turned Mat into this character, completely disregarding Mat's particular "voice" (if that's the right word). That annoyed me to no end, because it basically one-dimentionalised one of the most entertaining characters of the entire series.

Spoiler: Regarding The Theme

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I really have nothing concrete to add here; but everyone's opinions are entertaining and enlightening to read as always.

I do believe that, as one poster already mentioned, it's not always really clear that what Jordan wrote was light satire, or whether it was meant to be read in a positive or negative light, or whatever. Again, however, I do think that stretching out these themes over an entire 14 books (or 11 books, I guess) might have been a bit much. At some point, it stops becoming a thought-provoking exercise and starts being obnoxious. Stretch satire too far, and eventually it instead becomes... earnest. (Just as an example... I don't necessarily think the gender themes were meant to be satirical.)

Anyway. Following the thread. Very interested. Keep it up

[dps]

FWIW, my take on the gender theme of the series is that

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Jordan was trying to show that things work best when men and women work together as complementary, more-or-less equal partners. Unfortunately, he chose to demonstrate the point by having them do the opposite--by stupildly work at cross purposes, or trying to dominate one another repeatedly. In book after book after book.

[Mato]

Mato's insistence that the scene was intended to be interpreted in the most misogynistic way possible.

Wrong again and calling it misogyny? This is the Wheel of Time books, if the only rebuttal you can come up with is complaining about the series then you probably shouldn't be discussing it.

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Not that the point has anything to do with that, Egwane is just a plain terrible character. It's easy to get caught up in Jorden's negative portrayal of the female gender but as I've mentioned before most of them get better. Most having to be said because Egwane doesn't. And if can think otherwise all you want, but the author killed her using a weave that repairs the pattern just to clear up any confusion a rational person might have about her demise.

Rand doesn't put out a fire by countering the weave for it.

Let me fix that for you, males transfer heat but females smother it with water.

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For them, transferring heat is dangerous. Sort of like how if a male tried to travel like a female does they would be damaging the pattern (per Rand). The exact weaves, and even methods, used have a gender factor you apparently know nothing about.

You're also painting a pretty large picture why you might consider certain things to be a huge turn of events for you.

FWIW, my take on the gender theme of the series is that

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Jordan was trying to show that things work best when men and women work together as complementary, more-or-less equal partners. Unfortunately, he chose to demonstrate the point by having them do the opposite--by stupildly work at cross purposes, or trying to dominate one another repeatedly. In book after book after book.

Jordan was a little more sexist than that.

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Men and women are supposed work together, but as men are to lead and women are to counsel for them.

All other combinations - Such as female only lead, male only lead, female lead with male advisement, and truly equal - is the wrong way to do things.

[An Enemy Spy]

Chapter 13: Choices
Moiraine takes everyone's fatigue away again. She is getting very tired, and Lan is trying to get her to stop exerting herself, but Moiraine will have none of it. Everyone immediately falls asleep. Remember, they only think they aren't tired. In reality, everyone here is exhausted. Lan wakes everyone but Moiraine after a short time and they head off on the road to Baerlon.

The three Musketeers are already homesick for the Two Rivers. Egwene mocks them for wanting to go home when they've been talking about going on an adventure their whole lives. I think it should be reiterated that Egwene is the only one of them who actually volunteered to go on this quest. She snorts "Men!" at them in that smug tone that you just know she has.

A week passes by with no incident, the most interesting thing being that they pass a farm and are surprised that it looks no different than any farm in the Two Rivers. I'm not sure what they'd expect a farm to look like outside of home, but apparently they didn't expect it to look like a farm. Maybe they thought everyone outside the Two Rivers lives in crystal palaces and herds dragons. You know, exotic.

Lan trains the Three Musketeers in how to use their weapons properly. Lan tells Rand to a similar mental exercise to one that Tam taught him, involving imagining a flame and burning away any thoughts that didn't have to do with the task at hand. More evidence that Tam is a Warder? Thom has his own lessons, teaching them how to juggle. I'm sure that will be instrumental in saving the world.

Egwene unbraids her hair, which startles Rand because wearing your hair in a braid is something all women do in the Two Rivers when they reach adulthood. Egwene is eager to go out and be a part of the larger world and wants to leave everything about home behind her. I think Rand is concerned that means leaving him behind as well. Rand takes a hostile stance toward Moiraine, who Egwene idolizes, and brings up how she sunk the ferry. Egwene says "Men!" and leaves. Is this going to be her catchphrase? I really hope not. Rand is still not sold on Moiraine being a good guy.

Rand eavesdrops again on Moiraine and Egwene's nightly magic lesson. There are five powers: Earth, Wind, Fire, Water, Spirit. Long ago the nations lived in peace, but everything changed when the Dark One attacked. Only the Avatar, master of... sorry, got off track there. Any way, male Aes Sedai had power over Earth and Fire, while female Aes Sedai have power over Air and Water. Egwene thinks she got the lame elements, which is just silly. I bet Egwene would love Bloodbending. Then she could control Rand physically as well as emotionally.

Moiraine tells her that someone else in Emond's Field has the gift like she does, and Egwene tries to guess who it is. I'm going to take a wild stab and say it's Nynaeve, because I mean, come on, it has to be.

Moiraine suddenly looks directly at where Rand is hiding and he clumsily sneaks back to bed and pretends to be asleep when she comes over to look. Moiraine doesn't do anything but I bet she knows it was him.

They finally make it to Baerlon. It's a fairly small city with a wooden palisade, but to the Three Musketeers it looks like this. I wonder what their reaction will be when they see a real city. Moiraine reminds them all to keep their tongues guarded and say nothing about trollocs or evil stuff. Also, she and Lan will be going by the names Alys and Andra.

There is a group of soldiers in the city calling themselves the Children of the Light. Sounds like good guys from the name, but people sure don't like them. They appear to be an army of Knight Templars of a sort, rooting out evil wherever it is, and if there's no evil to root out, they'll just accuse someone of being evil and punish them out of spite. They especially don't like Aes Sedai. They are going down to fight the forces of the Dragon, which I guess means they're at least nominally on our side.

The Aes Sedai have already gone down to Ghealdan and it sounds that things did not go well for them. A big battle was fought and some or all of them were killed. The False(?) Dragon is growing stronger and people say he can use the One Power. He's fulfilling some of the prophecies that point to being the True Dragon, and he's off to fulfill another one. His army is moving toward the city of Tear, which is guarded by a nearly ionsurmountable fortress, that prophecy states will not be taken until the Dragon himself attacks it. The fortress holds some item called the Sword That Cannot Be Touched, that the Dragon will be able to wield. We don't know what this Sword is, but I'm sure we don't want it in the hands of evil.

They stop at an inn and get some rooms. The journey to Baerlon is finished.

[The New Bruceski]

Chapter 13: Choices
There is a group of soldiers in the city calling themselves the Children of the Light. Sounds like good guys from the name, but people sure don't like them. They appear to be an army of Knight Templars of a sort, rooting out evil wherever it is, and if there's no evil to root out, they'll just accuse someone of being evil and punish them out of spite. They especially don't like Aes Sedai. They are going down to fight the forces of the Dragon, which I guess means they're at least nominally on our side.

For fun, assume that whenever a child of the light talks they sound just like the Monty Python Spanish Inquisition sketch.

[Ifni]

Egwene unbraids her hair, which startles Rand because wearing your hair in a braid is something all women do in the Two Rivers when they reach adulthood. Egwene is eager to go out and be a part of the larger world and wants to leave everything about home behind her.

Egwene has a tendency to throw herself headlong into possible learning opportunities, and to identify very strongly with whatever she's trying to be at a given moment. This sometimes means she is too quick to discard what she's leaving behind; it also means she sometimes embraces the negative traits of the group she identifies with, as well as the positive ones. She does make progress on this front, toward leadership and trying to reform what she cares about rather than uncritically embracing it - but at this point I think she's still very much at "I'm going to behave like this because it's my idea of how Aes Sedai behave, and I want to be Just Like Them".

Spoiler discussion:

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@Mato: I think Egwene's death is pretty straightforwardly written as a Heroic Sacrifice. Mourning for her husband and Warder, suffering pain that would cripple anyone else (as observed by a helpful NPC bystander standing in for the narrator), she finds the inner strength to keep fighting, culminating in sacrificing her own life to seal the wounds in the Pattern. If I remember correctly, her death also sets the stage for Rand's big epiphany, that depriving people of their choices in order to "protect" them isn't actually doing them a favor.

Regarding the reversed weave, I think the most obvious foreshadowing is Nynaeve's healing of Compulsion, and then of madness - if I remember correctly, in both cases she overlays a modified weave which cancels out the Compulsion weave or the darkness associated with the madness.

There is a group of soldiers in the city calling themselves the Children of the Light. Sounds like good guys from the name, but people sure don't like them. They appear to be an army of Knight Templars of a sort, rooting out evil wherever it is, and if there's no evil to root out, they'll just accuse someone of being evil and punish them out of spite. They especially don't like Aes Sedai.

Pretty much spot on...

They are going down to fight the forces of the Dragon, which I guess means they're at least nominally on our side.

... oh, just you wait.

[Kitten Champion]

Lan trains the Three Musketeers in how to use their weapons properly. Lan tells Rand to a similar mental exercise to one that Tam taught him, involving imagining a flame and burning away any thoughts that didn't have to do with the task at hand. More evidence that Tam is a Warder? Thom has his own lessons, teaching them how to juggle. I'm sure that will be instrumental in saving the world.

Look at it from Thom's perspective, he see's a bunch of back-country rubes being spun into the unfathomable machinations of an Aes Sedai. He thinks they're going to end up who-knows-where without a penny to their name and with no real marketable skills beyond their physical labour, and that's if they're lucky. Teaching them something that can get them by for a while in the wide indifferent world is being quite kind.

[The New Bruceski]

Just to be clear, heron-mark blades are a sign of a master swordsman. Warders are bodyguards for Aes Sedai. Not all bearers of a sword are warders or vice-versa, and not all master swordsmen (like Lan) wield heron-blades. For that matter, not all heron-wielders are master swordsmen, but if one who deserves it sees you wearing one, you should probably have a good reason (like "my dad gave it to me.")

[Anteros]

Egwene has a tendency to throw herself headlong into possible learning opportunities, and to identify very strongly with whatever she's trying to be at a given moment. This sometimes means she is too quick to discard what she's leaving behind; it also means she sometimes embraces the negative traits of the group she identifies with, as well as the positive ones. She does make progress on this front, toward leadership and trying to reform what she cares about rather than uncritically embracing it - but at this point I think she's still very much at "I'm going to behave like this because it's my idea of how Aes Sedai behave, and I want to be Just Like Them".

Spoiler discussion:

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Regarding the reversed weave, I think the most obvious foreshadowing is Nynaeve's healing of Compulsion, and then of madness - if I remember correctly, in both cases she overlays a modified weave which cancels out the Compulsion weave or the darkness associated with the madness.

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I don't exactly agree with this, but I can see what you're getting at. Even so, if we do accept these events as foreshadowing, it's still only introduced at the very end of book 13 in a 14 book series.

Wrong again and calling it misogyny? This is the Wheel of Time books, if the only rebuttal you can come up with is complaining about the series then you probably shouldn't be discussing it.

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Not that the point has anything to do with that, Egwane is just a plain terrible character. It's easy to get caught up in Jorden's negative portrayal of the female gender but as I've mentioned before most of them get better. Most having to be said because Egwane doesn't. And if can think otherwise all you want, but the author killed her using a weave that repairs the pattern just to clear up any confusion a rational person might have about her demise.

Let me fix that for you, males transfer heat but females smother it with water.

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For them, transferring heat is dangerous. Sort of like how if a male tried to travel like a female does they would be damaging the pattern (per Rand). The exact weaves, and even methods, used have a gender factor you apparently know nothing about.

You're also painting a pretty large picture why you might consider certain things to be a huge turn of events for you.

Jordan was a little more sexist than that.

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Men and women are supposed work together, but as men are to lead and women are to counsel for them.

All other combinations - Such as female only lead, male only lead, female lead with male advisement, and truly equal - is the wrong way to do things.

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In Order

I wasn't complaining about the series. I was complaining about your skewed negative perception. I don't think the series is misogynistic at all, but you keep trying to argue that it is without actually providing any evidence.

If you're willing to stretch the idea of "each weave has an opposite" so far as to use "water can be used to put out a fire" as evidence then I don't think I can seriously debate that topic with you any further. Fire can also be put out by earth, and air. You could even cut the weave of the fire with spirit. There's nothing of "opposites" involved here.

Also, your ideas on leadership in the series are completely fabricated out of whole cloth.

Elayne is supreme leader of two nations and is written as extremely capable. Her people prosper under her.

Egwene is written as being potentially the greatest leader ever, of the most powerful institution in the world. She led the White Tower to levels of power they haven't experienced in thousands of years. Her death scene that you're so adamant about displaying her faults involves her single handedly defeating 400 enemy power users and fixing the pattern itself. She wasn't even hit by the weave in question. The tree was a result of her firing the weave into the holes in the pattern causing the entire area to crystallize.

Tuon is written as an extremely powerful ruler and the lands under her prosper. It's specifically remarked over and over that the lands under her are better ruled than most elsewhere.

Outside of Rand, the three most powerful rulers in the setting are all female, and extremely capable. In fact, all three are probably better rulers than Rand if you get right down to it. Every nation under Rand basically falls apart by the end of the series.

To enemy spy. I just have to say that I'm greatly enjoying reading the series again for the first time through your eyes. Keep it up.

[Mato]

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@Mato: I think Egwene's death is pretty straightforwardly written as a Heroic Sacrifice.

Spoiler: Please read the book

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They matched one another, in stasis, for an eternal moment. In that moment, Egwene, felt a peace come to her. The pain of Gawyn's death faded. He would be reborn. The Pattern would continue. The very weave she wielded calmed her anger and replaced it with peace. She each more deeply into saidar, that glowing comfort that guided her so long. And she drew more of the Power.

His stream of energy pushed its way through M'Hael's balefire like a sword thrust, spraying power aside and traveling right up the stream into M'Hael's outstretched hand. It pierced the hand and shot through his chest. The Balefire vanished. M'Hael gaped, stumbling, eyes wide, and then he crystallized from inside out, as if freezing in ice. A mutihued, beautiful crystal grew from him. Uncut and rough, as is from the core of the earth itself. Somehow Egwane knew that the Flame would have had much less effect on a person who had not given himself to the Shadow.

She clung to the Power she'd held. She had pulled in too much. She knew that if she released her grip, she should leave herself burned out, unable to channel another drop.

In other words, Egwene use a pattern rebuilding weave that calmed her down and told her to draw even more power from Vora's no-limit sa'angreal which burned her out. Her hand was forced.

Now burned out, Egwene realizes she has doomed her self to never channeling again unless Nynaeve pulls off another healing miracle, but even then she'd have significantly less power than she did before forcing her to start anew and without her fancy title. But she'd rather die than live a humbled life like that.

And she did, becoming the largest crystal in the process.

I wasn't complaining about the series. I was complaining about your skewed negative perception. I don't think the series is misogynistic at all, but you keep trying to argue that it is without actually providing any evidence.

At this point it's worth asking if you even read the series in the first place.

Start here: http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/One_Power

[lord_khaine]

Start here: http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/One_Power
And don't come back until you finished it.

Im with Anteros on this one, and dont think you are actually in any position to send anyone off to read anything whatsoever.

[Lethologica]

FWIW I read that and came out less inclined to believe WoT is misogynistic than before.

[Psyren]

*avoids spoilers*

I get where Mato is coming from, there was no reason for a circle of one man and one woman to always need a male lead for example. I don't consider it to be a major issue but it's a choice the author made that is worth examining.

Having said that I don't think Mato's hostile tone is at all necessary or appropriate.

[Kitten Champion]

*avoids spoilers*

I get where Mato is coming from, there was no reason for a circle of one man and one woman to always need a male lead for example. I don't consider it to be a major issue but it's a choice the author made that is worth examining.

I suspect it's his representation of the duality of spiritual energies between the sexes as appears in a number of metaphysical constructs throughout the world.

Here and here for instance, seems the biggest inspiration.

[LokeyITP]

I have no problem believing that reading the wikia.com section on WoT will hurt your understanding of the series :) They don't seem to get that RJ used unreliable narrators that operated on a lot of misunderstandings or pure guesswork.

It's part of what makes his writing interesting and annoying, there's room for interpretation everywhere. He also liked to play games with his readers, which is most of the annoying part, you shouldn't need a huge and often conflicting interview database to figure out what's going on.

Not much to contribute yet on the actual point of the thread. Maybe after a few books, the early books have their problems for discussion.

[Malak'ai]

Spoiler: Please read the book

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In other words, Egwene use a pattern rebuilding weave that calmed her down and told her to draw even more power from Vora's no-limit sa'angreal which burned her out. Her hand was forced.

Now burned out, Egwene realizes she has doomed her self to never channeling again unless Nynaeve pulls off another healing miracle, but even then she'd have significantly less power than she did before forcing her to start anew and without her fancy title. But she'd rather die than live a humbled life like that.

And she did, becoming the largest crystal in the process.

At this point it's worth asking if you even read the series in the first place.

Start here: http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/One_Power
And don't come back until you finished it.

Hey, bring the hostility down a bit mate. We're obviously all fans of the story in one way or another, and like it or not, we all have our own interpretations of the various themes all throughout the books.

And before you tell me to go read the books as well for what I'm about to say, I'll let you know right now, I've read the first 12 (that includes New Spring) over a dozen times each, TGS 4 times, ToM 3 times and aMoL twice. I've also read the BWB cover to cover half a dozen times, and The Strike at Shayol Ghul at least 3 times, so I'm pretty well versed in the story.

Spoiler: My take on WoT Male/Female Theme, and the Authours View on Sexism.

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The way I see it is that men and women were always meant to work together, in what ever combination they deemed necessary at the time. Unfortuneately, Stubborness, Pride and Ego (on both sides) gets in the way, not to mention regional bias. There is also the overall continuing theme of miscommunication (as well as just straight out just not telling other people major bits of information).
Do I think it was spread evenly for everyone all throughout the series, with no bias one way or the other? Hell no.
Do I care enough to take it to heart? Not really. I can seperate the personalities and veiws of fantasy characters from the real world. I can also accept that these are views/mistrusts that have exisisted for at least 2500 years. From even before the Drilling the Bore and the shattering of the Collam Daan, right through the Collapse and The Breaking to the end of the Third Age when Rand (along with Moiraine and Nynaeve) reseals the Dark One's prison, and presumably into the Fourth Age, and that it's going to take a very, very, very long time to change them, if they ever do get changed.

On your comments about RJ:
Did James Oliver Rigney Jr (aka Robert Jordan) portray these well? Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
Do we have a right to criticize his a writer over these issues if we happen to disagree with his particular view? Yes we do.
Do we have the same right to criticize him as a person? No. Not unless you actually knew the man. And I don't mean just meeting him at a book signing, I mean actually knowing him.

[Mato]

Dropped the last bit, I'm not aiming to be hostile but Jorden's intent is pretty clear, like painstakingly obviously clear. But how do you send an even clearer message if the first is missed?

But yes Malak'ai, I've never met the guy. He wrote the books, intended or not, in an overt sexist way. And because of such it's discussed on thousands of boards (including people claiming there is no sexism). But was Jorden truly sexist or did he just have a great marketing scheme, we'll probably never know. What is known is that it was highly effective.

[Ifni]

Spoiler: Please read the book

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In other words, Egwene use a pattern rebuilding weave that calmed her down and told her to draw even more power from Vora's no-limit sa'angreal which burned her out. Her hand was forced.

Now burned out, Egwene realizes she has doomed her self to never channeling again unless Nynaeve pulls off another healing miracle, but even then she'd have significantly less power than she did before forcing her to start anew and without her fancy title. But she'd rather die than live a humbled life like that.

And she did, becoming the largest crystal in the process.

@Mato:

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I'm away from my books at the moment, so I can't pick the exact quote I want, but this one from the WoT reread is pretty close, and covers the actual moment of Egwene's death (when she destroys the remaining Sharan channelers, after sending Egeanin to safety):

She closed her eyes and drew in the power. More than a woman should be able to, more than was right. Far beyond safety, far beyond wisdom. This sa'angreal had no buffer to prevent this.

Her body was spent. She offered it up and became a column of light, releasing the Flame of Tar Valon into the ground beneath her and high into the sky. The Power left her in a quiet, beautiful explosion, washing across the Sharans and sealing the cracks created by her fight with M’Hael.

Egwene's soul separated from her collapsing body and rested upon that wave, riding it into the Light.

So no, she didn't commit suicide because she'd prefer that to living with reduced or no ability to channel, that's not even implied. She held onto the Power because it would allow her to destroy the remaining Sharan channelers, and heal the damage to the world from Taim's attacks, albeit only at the cost of her own life. Faced with that choice, she sacrificed herself willingly, and her soul went directly to the Light. If I remember correctly (like I said, away from books), her ghost (or Rand's memory of her, it's not super clear) gets a moment to talk to Rand and gently chide him for trying to protect her, when it was her own choice to sacrifice herself. Checking the reread, the quote appears to be:

Am I not allowed to be a hero, too?

You march to your death. Yet you forbid anyone else from doing so?

Let go, Rand. Let us die for what we believe, and do not try to steal that from us. You have embraced your death. Embrace mine.

I honestly cannot see how you can interpret this as anything other than a heroic sacrifice, given that the text explicitly describes it as Egwene being a hero and dying for her beliefs - and that's the trigger for Rand finally letting go of his crippling guilt over all those who have died in his name, and standing up again to face the Shadow.

If you can't see how this is a Heroic Sacrifice, and insist on reading it as "arrogant woman blows herself up with the Power, thus demonstrating she was defying the Pattern all along"... yeah, we are just reading the series from completely different angles, and never the twain shall meet. But I'm pretty sure your reading was not the author's intent.

(Egwene's death also reflects that of the queen of Manetheren, who sacrificed herself and her city to destroy an army of the Shadow, by channeling more of the Power than her body could withstand. Ellisande has never been presented as anything other than a tragic heroic figure, and people have been using her name as a battle-cry throughout the series.)

Also, yeah, you should really be able to advocate for your opinions without accusing other people of not reading the books.

EDIT: And found another quote. Here's how Rand thinks about Egwene when defying the Dark One, a little later:

It was about a woman who would not bend her back while she was beaten, and who shone with the Light for all who watched. Including Rand.

I know Rand is not a stand-in for the author's views, but I think when your main character is saving the world through strength of will and character, and he explicitly thinks of another character as shining with the Light and draws strength from that, it's probably not meant to be ironic commentary on how dumb the hero is.

[Zrak]

To be fair, other people were accusing Mato of not reading the books first. Which isn't to say that excuses it, but rather that it's unfair to chide only Mato for doing so.

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While I think the quote you mention solidly rebuts the thesis that Egwene sacrfices herself because she is unwilling to live without her power, the line "She closed her eyes and drew in the power. More than a woman should be able to," definitely doesn't do a lot to argue against the broader charge of the scene's sexism. Not that it was necessarily your intention for it to do so, of course. I just bring it up to say that the sacrifice can still scan as pretty sexist without scanning as sexist for the reasons Mato believes.

[Iruka]

To be fair, other people were accusing Mato of not reading the books first. Which isn't to say that excuses it, but rather that it's unfair to chide only Mato for doing so.

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While I think the quote you mention solidly rebuts the thesis that Egwene sacrfices herself because she is unwilling to live without her power, the line "She closed her eyes and drew in the power. More than a woman should be able to," definitely doesn't do a lot to argue against the broader charge of the scene's sexism. Not that it was necessarily your intention for it to do so, of course. I just bring it up to say that the sacrifice can still scan as pretty sexist without scanning as sexist for the reasons Mato believes.

I don't understand why this line makes the scene sexist.

[Olinser]

I don't understand why this line makes the scene sexist.

Because he's searching for a reason to be pissed off.

ONLY women can draw on the female side of the power. So logically, since men can't draw any AT ALL, they aren't a useful data point. She's drawing more Saidar than any woman ever, and no man CAN draw any of it. It's a simple statement of fact concerning the amount of power she's drawing, there's nothing sexist about it.

[Ifni]

To be fair, other people were accusing Mato of not reading the books first. Which isn't to say that excuses it, but rather that it's unfair to chide only Mato for doing so.

Fair enough; it is also bad if others have been doing it. That said, I haven't been reading all the spoilered posts, mostly just the ones that responded to me. Mato accused me directly of not reading the books, I haven't said anything of the kind when disagreeing with others. I don't think it's "unfair" to suggest that this doesn't help his argument, and I don't think I need to trawl through all the other spoilered posts looking for other accusations before saying so.

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While I think the quote you mention solidly rebuts the thesis that Egwene sacrfices herself because she is unwilling to live without her power, the line "She closed her eyes and drew in the power. More than a woman should be able to," definitely doesn't do a lot to argue against the broader charge of the scene's sexism. Not that it was necessarily your intention for it to do so, of course. I just bring it up to say that the sacrifice can still scan as pretty sexist without scanning as sexist for the reasons Mato believes.

Given that Egwene's sacrifice is clearly portrayed in a positive light (see her soul riding to the Light, Rand's later statement about her shining with the Light, and the fact that it's the trigger for him to defy the Dark One), I find it hard to read that sentence as any kind of negative judgement on what Egwene is doing. While I might prefer they'd said "More than a person should be able to", I don't read it as "More than a woman should be able to (but it'd be just fine for a man)". Likewise, if a real-world character said "In his desperation to save the kid trapped under the rubble, he lifted far more than a man should be able to", I don't think many of us would assume the speaker meant "but of course a woman could do it". (As a note, it's pretty common for the Aes Sedai to use generic "she" and to say "a woman" when they're talking about a generic example human, which I noted as neat because in the real world of course that gets reversed.)

I can see why "more than a woman should be able to" can be read as a sexist statement in isolation, but I think it's only sexist if it comes with the implication that a woman would've been expected to fail where a man would not, or that a woman rightly should have failed and a man would not have. And that is pretty clearly not the case or the implication in this scene.

I also think the series has hammered pretty hard on the themes of Power Has Limits (That Should Not Be Broken), for both male and female characters. Rand is extremely nervous about the power of the Choedan Kal, feeling that it's too much, and the narrative supports him in that. When Rand has his moments of The Power Is Mine, I Can Do Anything!, they tend to backfire pretty badly. Seeking a new source of power with fewer limits was what freed the Dark One. The closest analogue to a male character doing this kind of suicidal draw on the Power is Lews Therin's creation of Dragonmount, which was not a positive thing.

It's actually kind of surprising Egwene's sacrifice goes as well as it does, given those precedents. You mention "more than a woman should be able to", but "more than was right, far beyond safety, far beyond wisdom" is at least as ominous. Given the outcome, I think the point of those descriptions is actually to emphasize that she's beyond self-preservation, beyond thinking of herself, transcending limits that should not be broken, in full understanding of the price. And she succeeds, and swings the whole battle, and provides the understanding that Rand needs to win his internal struggle with the Dark One.

Heh - I think I'm persuading myself that this scene does kinda conflict with prior themes of the series, regarding power and its limitations. But not in the direction of "women should know their limits and stick to them", quite the opposite And I suppose the whole idea of Sheathing The Sword is that you can achieve a goal that would otherwise be impossible, provided you are willing to pay the price.

Is it your feeling that this scene is meant to depict Egwene's punishment for reaching for more power than a woman's allotted measure? That would be sexist, but I just don't see it. I mean - she wins, through Sheathing The Sword, and her victory allows Rand to win as well.

And I guess the other possible charge of sexism would be for fridging, but I don't think it fits the bill there either - Egwene's (possible) ghost's lines to Rand later make it really, really clear that this was her triumph, her choice, her agency. She did it of her own choice, to win the battle and save the world, not to motivate Rand - and Rand isn't motivated by revenge for her loss, he's inspired by understanding her sacrifice.

(I'm actually reading a different epic fantasy series at the moment where one of my objections so far has been "There are all these awesome heartbreaking scenes of willing self-sacrifice to achieve a greater good, and EVERY SINGLE ONE IS BY A MALE CHARACTER, give me a female hero who lays down her life in a Crowning Moment of Awesome darnit!", so this may be coloring my opinion a little )

[Zrak]

Fair enough; it is also bad if others have been doing it. That said, I haven't been reading all the spoilered posts, mostly just the ones that responded to me. Mato accused me directly of not reading the books, I haven't said anything of the kind when disagreeing with others. I don't think it's "unfair" to suggest that this doesn't help his argument, and I don't think I need to trawl through all the other spoilered posts looking for other accusations before saying so.

Like I said, I wasn't bringing this up to excuse that accusation or imply that it did help his argument, merely to mention that others had already done so. I probably wouldn't have said anything were yours not the second post to single Mato out for accusing others of not reading the books when Mato had been the brunt of that accusation in a number of prior posts. I didn't mean to imply any wrongdoing on your part for having missed those posts, just that in the interest of fairness it should be mentioned that Mato was accused to not reading the books several time before bringing up the point about others.

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Given that Egwene's sacrifice is clearly portrayed in a positive light (see her soul riding to the Light, Rand's later statement about her shining with the Light, and the fact that it's the trigger for him to defy the Dark One), I find it hard to read that sentence as any kind of negative judgement on what Egwene is doing. While I might prefer they'd said "More than a person should be able to", I don't read it as "More than a woman should be able to (but it'd be just fine for a man)". Likewise, if a real-world character said "In his desperation to save the kid trapped under the rubble, he lifted far more than a man should be able to", I don't think many of us would assume the speaker meant "but of course a woman could do it". (As a note, it's pretty common for the Aes Sedai to use generic "she" and to say "a woman" when they're talking about a generic example human, which I noted as neat because in the real world of course that gets reversed.)

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I think it's hard to make a cogent reading either way without drawing on a lot more of the context of the series as a whole, and I wasn't trying to give a full reading of the scene so much as to argue how it might scan as sexist. I think part of it, like you say, is that there's a sort of double standard for this sort of statement that arises from various forms of institutionalized sexism. Most of the time when someone says something is great "for a woman" or "more than a woman should be able to," the typical implication is that a man could do better/more/whatever, and that shouldn't be discounted when reading the sentence. On the other hand, I think making that inference in all cases can end up a de facto endorsement of perpetuating the status quo of male being the generic/assumed gender.
In other words, I think there's a fine line between recognizing a pattern of institutionalized sexism and participating in it, and I think it's hard to say on which side of the line inferring a sexist slight from the sentence would fall. Were I writing it, I'd probably have gone with "a person" or the fantasy-tastic "a mortal" to avoid the entire question, but that doesn't make the choice of "a woman" sexist by any means, and I didn't mean to imply that it was, merely that it could certainly be read that way, especially by someone who read other elements of the broader narrative or its metaphysics as sexist or misogynist.

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Is it your feeling that this scene is meant to depict Egwene's punishment for reaching for more power than a woman's allotted measure? That would be sexist, but I just don't see it. I mean - she wins, through Sheathing The Sword, and her victory allows Rand to win as well.

And I guess the other possible charge of sexism would be for fridging, but I don't think it fits the bill there either - Egwene's (possible) ghost's lines to Rand later make it really, really clear that this was her triumph, her choice, her agency. She did it of her own choice, to win the battle and save the world, not to motivate Rand - and Rand isn't motivated by revenge for her loss, he's inspired by understanding her sacrifice.

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Not really. If I made it all the way through the Sanderson books, which I honestly don't recall, I was certainly skimming much too hard by the end to really give a fair and coherent reading. From the broader narrative context alone, without sufficient memory to comment on how it was written, the only charge of sexism I'd say the actual events could support would be Egwene's sacrifice revolving around Rand; as you say, her victory allows Rand to win and her ghost shows up to inspire Rand and teach him a Very Important Lesson. I don't think either of those things are really supposed to be how it reads, though, and I think the scene even tries, however unsuccessfully, to make her sacrifice not about Rand; from a character perspective, it obviously isn't about him, but from a narrative perspective it kind of ends up that way. That said, I think all that's sort of inevitable given that Rand is the main character, and I think it's a stretch at best to call a book sexist because its main character is male and the narrative ultimately revolves around the main character to a certain extent. In any case, I'd agree that it doesn't really fit with fridging or as a punishment for some sort of sexist, specifically-female hubris.