game/not a game

[ag30476]

The usual thing in this common-man-transported-to-an-alternate-universe-where-he-becomes-the-reluctant-hero type story is that the hero must learn to care about the fate of the alternate universe and in the process grows up or becomes a better person (Narnia, Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever).

Parson is more than willing to win the game for Stanley. But Stanley is the Big Bad Evil Guy. And Parson's nature, as revealed so far, is essentially good. For example, Parson, unlike Stanley or Wanda, has shown compassion for his underlings (Bogroll, Sizemore, Misty the Lookamancer).

So Parson's goal, though he does not realize it yet, is to win the game - defeat Ansom as required by the Perfect Warlord spell - but not let Stanley win for that would let Stanley's evil rule over Erfworld.

In other words, Parson must win the game but not treat Erfworld like it was just another one of his games. Parson must learn to care about Erfworld like he should have cared about his "real world".

Cliched? No. It's just good storytelling. Love it so far.

[JazzManJim]

Cliched? No. It's just good storytelling. Love it so far.

There are a couple really tasty story possibilities that could come around.

1) Parson has gained enough confidence from those around him that they will follow him willingly (out of respect or affection or simply because he treats them decently) and he'll realize that, if he wants to, he could supplant Stanley.

2) Parson will realize that Erfworld has mattered to him to that point because it's a game but that he's reached a point where it's not simply a game to him. The characters he's met actually matter to him in a way that no one's mattered to him before. He'll have a decision whether to return to Earth or remain in Erfworld.

[Ultimatum479]

Parson can't supplant Stanley. The Tool will just go Vaarsuvius on the fat slob.

"Aha! My troops outnumber yours a thousand to one, Stanley! Bow to my might!"

"Dismissal!"

*PLOT*

[JazzManJim]

Parson can't supplant Stanley. The Tool will just go Vaarsuvius on the fat slob.

"Aha! My troops outnumber yours a thousand to one, Stanley! Bow to my might!"

"Dismissal!"

*PLOT*

What if, in the ensuing melee that's coming, Parson gets hold of an Arkentool. the Arkenpliers could certainly be in play. What, then if he figures out, thanks to one of his new friends who is explaining magic to him (or maybe even because he's familiar with how it's used), how it gets attuned?

Being attuned to an Arkentool ought to be more than enough to break you free of the spell's effects.

[Ultimatum479]

The Arkentools seem to attune naturally to their chosen wielder. I doubt any of them would be attuned to a being not from that planet.

[JazzManJim]

The Arkentools seem to attune naturally to their chosen wielder. I doubt any of them would be attuned to a being not from that planet.

Possibly, but we certainly don't know nearly enough to say that with any real certainty.

It seems a common fictional theme for there to be something of great importance in a world that can only be used by an outsider. Perhaps there is an Arkentool like that also.

[Firestar27]

The Arkenpliers will attune to Parson. Someone on the boards (forgot who) had a theory. It was that whenever someone is talking about Parson and they don't know it, they use the word "no-one". Not "nobody". It is always "no-one". Ex: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0005.html
And
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0022.html
In 22, he could have said, "I don't know who can use them." But he said "I know of no-one who can use it".

[JazzManJim]

The Arkenpliers will attune to Parson. Someone on the boards (forgot who) had a theory. It was that whenever someone is talking about Parson and they don't know it, they use the word "no-one". Not "nobody". It is always "no-one". Ex: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0005.html
And
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0022.html
In 22, he could have said, "I don't know who can use them." But he said "I know of no-one who can use it".

Interesting theory there.

I don't see a reason that the Arkenpliers wouldn't attune to Parson. If he gets hold of them and attunes them, then he's every bit the equal to Stanley.

That leaves followers to determine who stands and who falls.

[ag30476]

Interesting theory there.

I don't see a reason that the Arkenpliers wouldn't attune to Parson. If he gets hold of them and attunes them, then he's every bit the equal to Stanley.

That leaves followers to determine who stands and who falls.

Very interesting theory, Parsom becoming attuned to the Arkenpliers. Or maybe Jillian becomes the Arkenplier wielder to make up for her betrayal (after Ansom's death?). Or maybe "no-one" means that no one person can wield the Arkenpliers, that is that it takes 2 or more people to wield them (Ansom and Jillian, Jillian and Wanda, Wanda and Ansom???).

It's all delicious speculation but good serial writing makes that possible.

[Vreejack]

The Arkenpliers will attune to Parson. Someone on the boards (forgot who) had a theory. It was that whenever someone is talking about Parson and they don't know it, they use the word "no-one". Not "nobody". It is always "no-one". Ex: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0005.html
And
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0022.html
In 22, he could have said, "I don't know who can use them." But he said "I know of no-one who can use it".

You got that quote wrong. What Ansom says is "I know of no-one who can [unlock their secrets.]"

This a world away from being attuned to them. Still, someone tried to make the point that Parson, being not from the Erfworld "planet," would not attune to the Arkentools, but in point of fact the Titans of Ark are not from Erfworld either, and by one possible interpretation are from the real version of the fictional Earth that Parson is from, so he very well may attune to them all.

[Azukar]

So Parson's goal, though he does not realize it yet, is to win the game - defeat Ansom as required by the Perfect Warlord spell - but not let Stanley win for that would let Stanley's evil rule over Erfworld.
.

S'far as I understand it, Stanley's not out to rule the world (yet, anyway). The eleven cities he used to hold may have already been under the control of whichever monarch he killed to become Noble. All we know for sure is that Stanley was questing for the three other Arkentools, and during that time he's attacked all kinds of races around Erfworld.

[ag30476]

S'far as I understand it, Stanley's not out to rule the world (yet, anyway). The eleven cities he used to hold may have already been under the control of whichever monarch he killed to become Noble. All we know for sure is that Stanley was questing for the three other Arkentools, and during that time he's attacked all kinds of races around Erfworld.

Whether he's trying to rule Erfworld or controll all the Arkentools, Stanley is the the big bad evil guy. He started the war. Many in Erfworld have died while others have been made to suffer.

The point is if Parson simply treats Erfwolrd as a game and wins the battle for Stanley, then this evil will continue. And what's more, Parson will be compliticit in the evil even though he is in part compelled by the spell to win for Stanley.

[Moechi_Vill]

Stanley isn't evil just because he started a war. I'm not trying to be a relativist, but give it a few thousand turns and if Stanley achieved something good and durable his evil acts will be forgotten by the present turn.

What I'm saying is he's evil by his acts, but so are all men. He's definitely on the evil side for now but let's give him a chance and not settle the ethical calculus till we know what he is trying to accomplish.

[ag30476]

Stanley isn't evil just because he started a war. I'm not trying to be a relativist, but give it a few thousand turns and if Stanley achieved something good and durable his evil acts will be forgotten by the present turn.

What I'm saying is he's evil by his acts, but so are all men. He's definitely on the evil side for now but let's give him a chance and not settle the ethical calculus till we know what he is trying to accomplish.

Normally starting a war for the gain of power, especially personal power, is considered evil, if not in real life than in a comic strip for sure.

Stanley might achieve a real good in a few thousand turns, which would be a few hundred of our years. I doubt Erfworld will last that long.

Stanley has to be judged on his actions and motives so far.

All men are not evil, or at least equally evil, by their acts. For example, it would be safe to say that Jeffrey Dahmer was 20 or so ritualistic cannibal murders more evil than almost everyone else.

As for what he is trying to accomplish, he has stated it: to gain the Arkentools for his holy purpose. That is his end. The pain and lives of others do not matter to Stanley.

The moral calculus is out for the other characters but by action and intent, Stanley is the bad guy. And this serves the stories purpose.

[ZeroNumerous]

This isn't a debate of good or evil, gentlemen.

As for it being a game, I don't know, though I'm inclined to believe it is.

[ag30476]

This isn't a debate of good or evil, gentlemen.

Erfworld may not be about good or evil but this debate has turned to that topic. Why do you object to the debate?

As for it being a game, I don't know, though I'm inclined to believe it is.

Erfworld's rules are game-like. Erfworld may or may not be a game.

But my original observation is that Parson is acting as if Erfworld were just a game. This is typical of the hero's beginning in stories where the hero is a common man from another thrust unwillingly into a supernatural world that he must save. Typically, the hero learns to care about this new world.

I was just observing that although the story is following this typical pattern it is still very engaging. Parson has already shown something of his basically decent character. I expect that, as the story proceeds, Parson will have to turn in some way, not necessarily directly, against Stanley because Stanley is the big bad evil guy. (And thus the debate on good and evil started on this thread.)

[JaxGaret]

Stanley might achieve a real good in a few thousand turns, which would be a few hundred of our years.

Isn't a Turn a day? So a few thousand turns would be 5-10 years.

Or did I miss something in the comic that defined a Turn as more than a day?

[nooblade]

Normally starting a war for the gain of power, especially personal power, is considered evil, if not in real life than in a comic strip for sure.

Absolutely not true. People fight for power all the time. Look at World War 2. You could be snot-nosed and say that the Germans started it and that the Germans embody everything completely evil and such, but the Japanese attacked the US because they couldn't get any oil. That's a move for power and it certainly isn't evil in itself, even though the Japanese did some nasty things at the time.

Who knows what kind of situation Stanely was in. I'd give him the benefit of the doubt.

Stanley might achieve a real good in a few thousand turns, which would be a few hundred of our years. I doubt Erfworld will last that long.

Stanley has to be judged on his actions and motives so far.

Except we don't even know exactly what he did and exactly why.

All men are not evil, or at least equally evil, by their acts. For example, it would be safe to say that Jeffrey Dahmer was 20 or so ritualistic cannibal murders more evil than almost everyone else.

I don't get what you're saying here at all.

As for what he is trying to accomplish, he has stated it: to gain the Arkentools for his holy purpose. That is his end. The pain and lives of others do not matter to Stanley.

Maybe instead, the pain and deaths of others is bearable. There are always casualties in a war. Stanley might seem unconcerned, but it is just a game. It must be hard to be concerned when you can buy a unit practically instantly, see all of its stats, probably including intelligence, and buy one just like it back when it dies. Maybe none of those gobwins (?) are even somewhat different from each other.

Its funny because Stanley is going to end up with fewer casualties by using recycleable units like undead and powerful tank-units like dwagons, probably even regardless of not having healing. Stanley doesn't need to have every individual troop feel valued, he's got bigger fish to fry. In fact, it would be kinda dumb to appeal to the favor of units who only come for a certain amount of gold.

The moral calculus is out for the other characters but by action and intent, Stanley is the bad guy. And this serves the stories purpose.

I don't think "moral calculus" really works. Maybe things are relative and maybe they're not, but I would wait until things get interesting before judging Stanley's character. He might yell a lot or he might do something really insightful and interesting. And maybe even it isn't such a bad thing to be yelling a lot.

[ag30476]

Isn't a Turn a day? So a few thousand turns would be 5-10 years.

Or did I miss something in the comic that defined a Turn as more than a day?

It was a rhetorical point. Parson may be confused as to whether Erfworld is real but we, as readers, don't have to be. It's a story and at less than 1 Erfworld turn per real world week, it could literally take a 100 years to cover a few Erf years in detail. Of course, that could be shortcut with a epi-Klog describing Stanley's benevolent rule after Parson's supposed victory but that's not the point.

The point is that it's no use of debating what Stanley might or might not do. As readers, we have to go on what's given. And, luckily for us, this strip has a lot of reading between the lines. But it shouldn't be too hard to figure out from in-story and literary perspectives Stanley is the evil guy.

[ag30476]

Absolutely not true. People fight for power all the time. Look at World War 2. You could be snot-nosed and say that the Germans started it and that the Germans embody everything completely evil and such, but the Japanese attacked the US because they couldn't get any oil. That's a move for power and it certainly isn't evil in itself, even though the Japanese did some nasty things at the time.

Why bring up WWII unless you want to invoke Godwin's Law? Look you could argue that saying Germany started WWII and that Hitler was evil is a snot-nosed but, really, you're not going to get most people to agree with you. And by most people I mean 99%.

Normally, starting a war for personal gain is a very bad thing in the real world. In literature, it is the hallmark of the big, bad evil guy.

Who knows what kind of situation Stanely was in. I'd give him the benefit of the doubt.

Absolutely we don't know the details. That would be boring storytelling.

Except we don't even know exactly what he did and exactly why.

I don't get what you're saying here at all.

We know he destroyed 1 or 2 clans - that is wiped out, killed, Erf-beings. That is bad. We know he allows Wanda to torture people. We know he ordered the linking of the Eyemancers which obviously had bad personal consequences for Misty. We know he is an egomaniac. We know he cares little for his own underlings. We know he thinks that all that is happening is OK because he has a "holy" purpose.

Too bad Erfworld's rules do not include an alignment system. Then Parson might be able to see 'AL: CE' when looking at Stanley through his glasses and we might save all this debating.

Maybe instead, the pain and deaths of others is bearable. There are always casualties in a war. Stanley might seem unconcerned, but it is just a game.

Yup that is exactly how Stanley thinks. Normally that is called evil-thinking unless it was all a game. But then it is Erfworld and even Stanley thinks Erfworld is real to him. See the question is not whether Erfworld is really real, that is real to us. It's not. It's a comic strip. The question is whether Erfworld is a real world for Parson. But Parson's play-within-a-play concern does not effect Erf-worlders perceptions of themselves as "real". The question of whether Stanley is evil is not a real-world question as in, "Is Stanley evil in the real world?" No. He is a comic strip character. The question is whether Stanley is evil in Elfworld and the answer is yes.

It must be hard to be concerned when you can buy a unit practically instantly, see all of its stats, probably including intelligence, and buy one just like it back when it dies. Maybe none of those gobwins (?) are even somewhat different from each other.

But Ansom, Parson, Jillian, Vinny and other characters do seem to be concerned. In fact, that the outsider Parson concerns himself with the lowest of the low underscores Stanleys cold-heartedness.

Its funny because Stanley is going to end up with fewer casualties by using recycleable units like undead and powerful tank-units like dwagons, probably even regardless of not having healing. Stanley doesn't need to have every individual troop feel valued, he's got bigger fish to fry. In fact, it would be kinda dumb to appeal to the favor of units who only come for a certain amount of gold.

Using uncroaked is evil. Croakamancy is a subset of Naughtymancy for heaven's sake.

I don't think "moral calculus" really works. Maybe things are relative and maybe they're not, but I would wait until things get interesting before judging Stanley's character. He might yell a lot or he might do something really insightful and interesting. And maybe even it isn't such a bad thing to be yelling a lot.

If it's not interesting yet, why are we having this debate?

[Marbit-Chow]

Stanley said "What makes you think we're the 'bad guys'?"

What makes everyone think Parson is a good guy?

Parson is anti-social and has no real ambition. He escapes into fantasy worlds because he feels powerless in the "real world". Now he's being given real power, the kind he's always wished for. And, in his fantasies, he prefers to play the bad guys.

He's learning how to be manipulative - of Stanley and of the 'game world'. He treats the units under his command as pawns, not as living creatures. He doesn't seem to be bothered by Wanda's Hobbies.

Parson is not going to 'change sides'. He is going to come into his own, and become the evil overlord he always dreamed of being.

Anti-heroes can be just as much fun as heroes, and are often more interesting. See Elric and Thomas Covenant for further details.

[ag30476]

Stanley said "What makes you think we're the 'bad guys'?"

What makes everyone think Parson is a good guy?

Parson has friends in his real world. Friends that care about him. That's a quality of nice people. Notice that Stanley is not nice and nobody caresa about him. Parson has shown kindness to his twoll servant, to Sizemore and to Misty the necromances. And again they in turn have been responsive to his "niceness".

Parson is anti-social and has no real ambition. He escapes into fantasy worlds because he feels powerless in the "real world". Now he's being given real power, the kind he's always wished for.

He has friends in his real world. Ambition is neither good or evil but generally is not a "nice" trait. And nothing in the comic shows that Parson wanted "real" power.

And, in his fantasies, he prefers to play the bad guys.

No he said he wanted to play the bad guys in a loosing role - just like the one he's in. That does not make him not nice.

He's learning how to be manipulative - of Stanley and of the 'game world'.

That's out of necessity. Besides the nice can be not nice to the not nice and still be nice.

He treats the units under his command as pawns, not as living creatures.

Absolutely not. What's shown in the comic is that he is the only commander on his side that does not treat his underlings as mere pawns.

He doesn't seem to be bothered by Wanda's Hobbies.

He does not know what they are and she has been evasise as to the nature of her control ober Jillian.

Parson is not going to 'change sides'. He is going to come into his own, and become the evil overlord he always dreamed of being.

Fan-fic much?

Anti-heroes can be just as much fun as heroes, and are often more interesting. See Elric and Thomas Covenant for further details.

Of course, but whiny, cry baby Covenant can't hold a candle to Elric as an anti-hero. And if you want a real anti-hero, check out the classics.

[SteveMB]

No he said he wanted to play the bad guys in a losing role

Where does he specify that last part?

He does not know what [Wanda's hobbies] are

Stanley plainly tells him in the last frame of page 24.

[ag30476]

Stanley plainly tells him in the last frame of page 24.

Oops missed that. Stand corrected. But I would still say that Parson has yet to fully experience the bad side of his side.

Where does he specify that last part?

First frame of same page above, page 24, Parson says "I was just about to game a scenario like this when you summoned me."...Then he says "More evidence I'm dreaming." That refers to the game he was about to play with the volvano caldera when he tells his gaming group on page 15 "You're about to command armies in a desperate struggle for survival...between all that is noble and decent and all that is vile and unholy". On page 31 he says, "I always did like to play the bad guys which we obviously are".

So maybe I'm stretching it to say that in the scenario he was going to play he was the bad guys in a seeminly loosing and defensive position but it's not much of a stretch.

[Marbit-Chow]

Parson has friends in his real world. Friends that care about him. That's a quality of nice people.

Really? I saw a 'gamer group', not friends. From his first klog, he suspects them of spiking his drink with acid. Some friends.

He has friends in his real world. Ambition is neither good or evil but generally is not a "nice" trait. And nothing in the comic shows that Parson wanted "real" power.

He creates entire imaginary worlds in his spare time. That honestly doesn't scream 'God Complex' to anyone else?

That's out of necessity. Besides the nice can be not nice to the not nice and still be nice.

Not according to many major religions. Turn the other cheek and all...

Parson isn't going to go around, kicking his minions and cackling maniacally. No one does that in real life.

Oppenheimer built the bomb just because he could. You don't have to be cruel to be 'evil'. Pride can be just as big a downfall as the desire for power.

My only point is that there appears to be an assumption that Parson is the Hero. He's the Protagonist, which is not the same thing - that's the main point I'm trying to make.

[ag30476]

Really? I saw a 'gamer group', not friends.

Game much? That is the dynamic of gaming friends. The dynamic of gamers who aren't friends OTOH...

He creates entire imaginary worlds in his spare time. That honestly doesn't scream 'God Complex' to anyone else?

And he plays the evil Dungeon's and Dragons, a tool of Satan himself. But when the rapture come then we'll see see who gets to 'save' for real...repent all you sinners, you web-comic addicts, you gamers, you reader of Harry Potter before it's too late!

Not according to many major religions. Turn the other cheek and all...

Are we talking about niceness or theology here?

Parson isn't going to go around, kicking his minions and cackling maniacally. No one does that in real life.

You have not read the tabloid lately have you? It's the latest thing for the rich and famous to to kick their servants literally.

Oppenheimer built the bomb just because he could. You don't have to be cruel to be 'evil'. Pride can be just as big a downfall as the desire for power.

You know Oppenheimer is only one step away from invoking Godwin.

My only point is that there appears to be an assumption that Parson is the Hero. He's the Protagonist, which is not the same thing - that's the main point I'm trying to make.

A protagonist who is not a hero you say? A sort of anti-hero? Wiki is your friend my friend.

[DDL]

Ag30476: I can't believe you're accusing others of 'fan-fic' when virtually ALL OF THIS is fan-fic of your own creation. You've reached a conclusion based on tenuous evidence, and run with it so far you now seem to be convinced of it's inherent truth.

Look, parson has just spend a turn butchering loads of battlebears and siege-engine riding marbits..."for an opener". He's treating this very very much as a game, I would guess: I don't know about you, but I would feel..uncomfortable about bringing about so many deaths, even if they were on "the other side".

[ag30476]

Ag30476: I can't believe you're accusing others of 'fan-fic' when virtually ALL OF THIS is fan-fic of your own creation. Y

Technically what I'm doing on this forum has another name.

You've reached a conclusion based on tenuous evidence, and run with it so far you now seem to be convinced of it's inherent truth.

And just what conclusion did I reach?

Look, parson has just spend a turn butchering loads of battlebears and siege-engine riding marbits..."for an opener". He's treating this very very much as a game, I would guess: I don't know about you, but I would feel..uncomfortable about bringing about so many deaths, even if they were on "the other side".

So you are saying that so far Parson is treating all this as a game in VIOLENT AGREEMENT agreement with me. LOL

[Querzis]

Oh I'm totally sure Parson still see Erfworld as a dream. We dont know if hes a good guy or an evil overlord as long as he doesnt even realize that Erfworld is 'real'. I roleplayed just as much bad guys as good guys so I dont see what the fact that he love to play the bad guys in GAMES as do to with his alignement.

[ChowGuy]

And just what conclusion did I reach?

For starters, that Stanley is "the Big Bad Guy" who "Started this war." So let's examine the evidence.

Like Parson in his famous "everybody in the word" is at war with him you act as if that fact alone proves that Stanley is "Evil." But answer me this: Where, in fact, does anyone, from either side, make the claim that Stanley did in fact "start" this war? War is a way of life in Erfworld. The way of life, as is to be expected if this entire world is a "wargame" brought to life. Consider:

1) Ansom, addressing the coalition leaders: "We are all courageous and competent warlords"
Where did they get that competence? -playing parlor games like Parson? Doubtful. The very word "Game" in such a context is unfamiliar to Stanley. Making war on each other since the dawn of time? Oh yeah, that I can see.

2) Stanley himself, in response to Parson's "we're the bad guys":
"Ansom and people like him... [Pretend] Like they're they're not ruling by violence and fear. Pshah."

3) When Vinny and Ansom discuss the matter, we are told that Stanley "attacked us [Vinny]", "hit the Elves," and "rubbed out the Milqetoast tribe." Nowhere however is it assertted that those events were anything other then the normal course of action in Erfworld, nor that they were "unprovoked." Indeed the clear only mention of a seemingly unprovoked (or insufficiently provoked) action is Ansom's own. We are told only that Stanley "croaked a few field units" of Jetstone. We don't even know how or where that took place. And this is justification for launching total war? It's as if saying some "advisors" got caught in the crossfire of a brushfire war elsewhere, (a not unlikely scenario) and all of a sudden it's World War III time.

No, while Ansom says gives one possible reason "I just want to end a great evil" but even his chief advisor is not convinced by that. Instead he proposes, if obliquely, a much better reason - that Stanley was a threat to Jetsone's own plans to rule all, and must therefore be taken out of the picture. We get a hint of another possible reason from Wanda: Stanley's realm only seems to have began to crumble since he began questing for the Arkentools. Jetstone has an Arkentool, and really wants to keep it. Reason enough by itself perhaps to pull together all of the other factions they've been sqabbling with, and lead them against this "madman" who seeks to bring an end to their own happy little 'games'.

Sounds to me very much like "The <insert group of choice> are the enemy! They have always been the enemy! They must be exterminated!"