betrayal and its consequences

[ag30476]

Assuming Parson's Plan B works, then what will this reveal to Ansom about Jillian and Parson?

Ansom and Vinny have already expressed doubts about Jillian's loyalty. If Parson's plan works, then it might be reasonable for Ansom to think that Jillian revealed the battle plans when she was captured. If so, then what will his reaction be?

If Parson's plan works, then will it reveal the presence of Parson to the good guys? Ansom thinks that Stanley has no leadership left. A successful counter to his battle plan would lead Ansom to think that Stanley does have someone on his side. How will Ansom react to that?

Interpersonal relations aside, Ansom has shown himself to be at least an adequate leader. Yes Stanley has picked terrible Warlords, but Ansom has defeated them so far and he has put Stanley's forces in a very inferior position. Ansom also avoided the trap that Parson laid for him when Jillian was released by wisely listening to Vinny's counsel.

This leads to another speculation. Ansom thought that Jilliam might be captured again when he let her scout ahead - admittedy not a difficult prediction to make. But given that and the fact that he doesn't implicitly trust her even though he may love her, is it possible that the battle plan that Ansom revealed so far is not his real battle plan? That is, that he expected Jillian to betray him and let her in on a fake battle plan?

Can't wait to see how it works out.

[SteveMB]

This leads to another speculation. Ansom thought that Jilliam might be captured again when he let her scout ahead - admittedy not a difficult prediction to make. But given that and the fact that he doesn not implicitly trust her even though he may love her, is it possible that the battle plan that Ansom revealed so far is not his real battle plan? That is, that he expected Jillian to betray him and let her in on a fake battle plan?

I thought that was a possibility, but it seems less likely now in view of Parson's statement in Klog 5: "Ansom plans feint through tunnels". If Ansom were throwing out misinformation, reversing the real attack and the feint would seem like a good place to start, and yet Parson got accurate information on this point. (Also, when Ansom briefed Jillian on the plan, he may have (wishfully) thought that this time he'd actually keep her from going on a dangerous recon flight.)

[ag30476]

I thought that was a possibility, but it seems less likely now in view of Parson's statement in Klog 5: "Ansom plans feint through tunnels". If Ansom were throwing out misinformation, reversing the real attack and the feint would seem like a good place to start, and yet Parson got accurate information on this point. (Also, when Ansom briefed Jillian on the plan, he may have (wishfully) thought that this time he'd actually keep her from going on a dangerous recon flight.)

I agree, there is nothing tangible that says that Ansom is throwing out misinformation.

Still, Parson's well coordinated plan will probably tip off Ansom that Stanley now has a good general. The question is how will Stanley respond? We, the readers, like Parson, don't quite know what Ansom and his forces are capable of.

As for Jillian, it seems to me that there has to be more consequences to betrayal than inner guilt - she can assuage that feeling by sating her lust on the battle field or by conveniently being captured again. But again, we just don't know when her betrayal will come to light.

[Flakey]

Ansom and Vinny have already expressed doubts about Jillian's loyalty. If Parson's plan works, then it might be reasonable for Ansom to think that Jillian revealed the battle plans when she was captured. If so, then what will his reaction be?

I am not sure this follows, because of Ansom splitting his force to rescue Jillian, AFTER Jillian was captured. Therefore, it is unlikely to be attribituable to Jillian. It reveals far more about the lookamancers and Stanlry having a new decent warlord though, and that reaction will be interesting to see.

[ag30476]

I am not sure this follows, because of Ansom splitting his force to rescue Jillian, AFTER Jillian was captured. Therefore, it is unlikely to be attribituable to Jillian. It reveals far more about the lookamancers and Stanlry having a new decent warlord though, and that reaction will be interesting to see.

Ansom split his forces to rescue Jillian because he had to. Only flying units could rescue her and and the small force that had followed her. Noone seems to question the rescue of Jillian per se. She seems like a valueable asset. The bad guys seem to think she is. Wanda states that Jillian "can croak a small army" with a set of chopsticks. The only reason the bad guys let her go is because of Wanda's subtle control over her - which let them set a trap for Ansom.

We can assume that Stanley had the Lookamancers all along. He has not had competent leadership until now. We can imagine that Parson's new tactics will reveal to the good guys that Stanley now has a new, capable leader.

But if Lookamancers could forsee or spoil all plans of war given compeent leadership, then it would make Jillian's interrogation unnecessary and the information Wanda "tortured" out of Jillian could not have revealed any more of the battle plan than the Lookamancer's information. More importantly, there would have been no "betrayal" by Jillian.

For Jillian's "betrayal" to be genuine, she must have given something of value and she must have broken her bond. And this must have consequences for the story other than her character's internal conflict. I'm just wondering when we will see this. It has already been set up that Ansom and Vinny don't completely trust Jillian. So I assume the revelation of the betrayal and its consequences will come soon.

But all this begs the question, are the good guys using Jillian to fool the bad guys? Though this is unlikely, it is an intriguing possibility.

[TiamatRoar]

But if Lookamancers could forsee or spoil all plans of war given compeent leadership, then.

I'm pretty sure Lookamancers can't see the future. They can only see the whole world map (while everyone else has to deal with the Fog of War of not knowing where everyone else is positioned). Of course, a good commander can use the knowledge gained from lookamancy to LOGICALLY predict what the enemy is planning to a certain degree (educated guesses based on how the enemy is positioning his units), but even that is extremely limited. Knowing many many turns in advance what Ansom has up his sleeve is a huge boon to a commander, lookamancers or not.

[ag30476]

I'm pretty sure Lookamancers can't see the future. They can only see the whole world map (while everyone else has to deal with the Fog of War of not knowing where everyone else is positioned). Of course, a good commander can use the knowledge gained from lookamancy to LOGICALLY predict what the enemy is planning to a certain degree (educated guesses based on how the enemy is positioning his units), but even that is extremely limited. Knowing many many turns in advance what Ansom has up his sleeve is a huge boon to a commander, lookamancers or not.

Exactly, that's why I said 'if'.

[Silverlocke980]

I never considered the issue of her betrayal being found out. Now, I doubt Ansom fed her misinformation- he's a good commander but subterfuge doesn't seem his style. He's too "noble" for that.

What do I think the biggest impact of treachery will be?

Jillian's constant struggle with herself. How she turns out could be quite interestring, if a mid-battle crisis forces her to tell Ansom everything.

(Such as the Warlord Summoning Spell Wanda told her about.)

[SteveMB]

What do I think the biggest impact of treachery will be?

Jillian's constant struggle with herself. How she turns out could be quite interestring, if a mid-battle crisis forces her to tell Ansom everything.

(Such as the Warlord Summoning Spell Wanda told her about.)

We don't know how much Wanda told Jillian about the spell, and her description to Jillian ("...combination Findamancy/Lookamancy...") differs from the original description she gave Stanley ("The Findamancers and Predictamancers have forged a spell together."). It's unknown whether this is deliberate misinformation or simply not caring all that much about the details of non-Croakamancy magic once she's done with the regrettable necessity of using it.

The real issue that might come up is that Ansom trusts Jillian with his plans (as I noted earlier, the possibility that he gave her bogus plans seems to be refuted by Parson's knowledge that the tunnel attack is intended as a feint). Either he believes that she routinely holds out under interrogation (unlikely to be true, unless she's been legitimately escaping all the times until now -- in which case I'd have expected Stanley to give "boop this, croak her next time" orders), or Ansom had deluded himself into believing that this time he'll keep her from going out and getting herself captured again. In the former case, she's been lying to him (at least by omission); in the latter, he's seriously blinded by his feelings.