Pokémon Thread XXV: Adorable Eugenics Simulator

[Mando Knight]

Well the 1HKO ones are, but whats with Swagger and the other two?

I really do get the no 1HKO moves, cuz i have an Articuno with Mind Reader and Sheer Cold and its disgusting.

Swagger randomly wins or loses the game by either making the enemy's physical sweeper knock itself out, or by giving it a free setup turn with an extra Swords Dance.

Minimize and Double Team randomly win or lose the game by either making your 'mon untouchable, or by failing to protect it from a knockout blow, wasting a turn.

Smogon really hates coinflip battles.

[MesiDoomstalker]

All the evasion increasing moves/items/abilities (Brightpowder, Double Team, Minimize, Sand Veil, Ice Veil) takes the game to silly levels of luck. A mon with Double Team (and a lot of mon get it via TM) can completely wall an opponents team and sweep 6-0 if they get Double Team up and get lucky the first round. Then second round, another Double Team makes it even harder to hit. Repeat till +6 Evasion and you get a mon who is really really hard to hit. That's not strategy, that's just stupid luck abuse.

Swagger is in a similar vein, as its a widely distributed move that causes a status that is hard to counter (very few things get Own Tempo and those that do have better abilities) that forces a 50% chance of doing something useful or 50% chance of hurting themselves (and with the +2 Attack attached, the confusion hits are twice as bad). It's a somewhat lesser version of the Evasion clause because it turns every battle into a coin flip. Also, the suggestion to just switch out of Confusion is less tahn helpful, as it does nothing to actively counter Swagger, simply cure one particular instance.

You should also see you can't use Baton Pass and pass a speed buff along with another stat buff (IE, you can pass a Swords Dance or Agility, but not both and NEVER a Shell Smash) for the sole reason that pretty much anything can be instantly deadly with +2 (Attack stat) +2 Speed.

[tgva8889]

Smogon really hates coinflip battles.

Of course, they did decide to play Pokemon, which inherently has a lot of random luck elements in it. Like miss chance, and every move having a chance to Critical Hit for a lot more damage.

[OracleofWuffing]

Swagger also gets associated with the Swagplay strategy, where since you're already buffing your opponent, you end up buffing whatever damage you do with Foul Play while you're at it. Throw in paralysis for good measure, and it becomes less about type matchups and stats and more about who gets the benefit of random numbers.

I really do get the no 1HKO moves, cuz i have an Articuno with Mind Reader and Sheer Cold and its disgusting.

I believe that Fissure No-Guard Machamp may be possible this coming generation, too, thanks to the gen 1 remakes.

You should also see you can't use Baton Pass and pass a speed buff along with another stat buff (IE, you can pass a Swords Dance or Agility, but not both and NEVER a Shell Smash) for the sole reason that pretty much anything can be instantly deadly with +2 (Attack stat) +2 Speed.

Huh, that's a new one to me, but I see it's true. Poor Ninjask.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Of course, they did decide to play Pokemon, which inherently has a lot of random luck elements in it. Like miss chance, and every move having a chance to Critical Hit for a lot more damage.

Most moves have 100% accuracy (and the few that don't are generally no less than 80%. The only exception I can think of that people regularly use is Focus Blast). Crits only happen 6.25% of the time (assuming no crit fishing shenanigans) and as of Gen 6, only buff it by +50% (previously was +100%). Then if we look at side-effect moves, the most likely secondary chances for strong moves is 10% (Burn on Flare Blitz) while moderate power moves have up to 30% (Shadow Ball's Sdef drop) while weak moves have anywhere from 50% to 100% chance (Charge Beam is 50/50 shot of buffing Satk, and Nuzzle always inflicts para but is super weak).

Yes, Pokemon is a game where chance is a built in factor. That is why Smogon dislikes things that add even more random chance into the mix. It changes a game from where luck can play a factor but strategy and predictions are still the ultimate factor to a game where everything is coin flips and die rolls.

EDIT:

Swagger also gets associated with the Swagplay strategy, where since you're already buffing your opponent, you end up buffing whatever damage you do with Foul Play while you're at it. Throw in paralysis for good measure, and it becomes less about type matchups and stats and more about who gets the benefit of random numbers.


I believe that Fissure No-Guard Machamp may be possible this coming generation, too, thanks to the gen 1 remakes.


Huh, that's a new one to me, but I see it's true. Poor Ninjask.

Actually, Ninjask can still work, just can't use Swords Dance (though that being said, Scolipede is better for a Baton Passing Speed Boosting mon).

[Lord Raziere]

Swagger randomly wins or loses the game by either making the enemy's physical sweeper knock itself out, or by giving it a free setup turn with an extra Swords Dance.

Minimize and Double Team randomly win or lose the game by either making your 'mon untouchable, or by failing to protect it from a knockout blow, wasting a turn.

Smogon really hates coinflip battles.

which is why I stick to hih-damage moves and moves that don't miss, like aerial ace, swift, magical leaf and whatnot.

though it would be funny if I made a pokemon whose moves were: Swagger, Double Team, Metronome and.....I dunno a fourth one along those lines, nickname them "Roulette" or something, and just see what insanity would come forth from their randomness

[Aotrs Commander]

Too much randomness can ruin any game to the point it becomes nothing more then a metaphorical dice rolling exercise. And rolling dice for the sake of rolling dice is not entertaining (if it was, I'd stil be playing Snakes and Ladders).

Randomisation in games should be there to provide a controlled variance to the spread of results, not obiviate the mechanics and decision making. RNG is there to assist the game, not BE the game. (Pokemon relies on it a little too much already, in my opinion.)

I can quite see Smogon's point on those particular moves.

[boj0]

I always saw the RNG attached to crits or secondary effects as more of an afterthought; if I click Flare Blitz, I know that I will be shooting off a powerful, physical, Fire-type move, the 10% Burn chance is what is up in the air (and honestly doesn't have as much impact as the raw power of the move, nor is the chance high enough to base usage of the move off it). Most moves and abilities with RNG come down to choice and risk/reward: Is the power of Fire Blast worth the accuracy drop compared to Flamethrower? Psychic is more powerful than Psyshock, and has a debuff chance, but the latter can over coverage against a defense that might laugh off Psychic (and again, the small SpDef drop chance is not enough to be the main focus of the move). It comes down to choice, If you use Double Team you have taken the fight out of both players hands, my ability to use any move is now up to the RNG, not because you used Protect, or a well timed Taunt. If I miss, it should be because I made the conscious choice to use an inaccurate move, or because YOU used a specifically defensive move (Taunt, Sub, Protect, etc.)

Evasion takes away the skill of both player's, there is no way to "predict" evasion like you can stat boosts, or status effects; and unlike stat boosts, no status or critical hit can bypass it. I can't power through evasion with a Swords Dance/Nasty Plot; I could use Poison or Burn to bypass evasion, if I can get Toxic or Will-o-wisp to hit. On the user's end, there is no consistency to its defensive power, if I hit you through Minimize, I do just as much damage as if you hadn't used it at all; while you could argue that SpDef/Def boosts do the same thing (lower average damage over time), a critical hit ignores that while it has no effect on evasion (which leads to the horrifying prospect of someone using evasion + defensive boosts to).

So while some similarities can be drawn with minor RNG in battle (<100 acc moves, sleep, para, crits), evasion does not have the consistency or lack of impact that those effects have.

[noparlpf]

Didn't they also ban that ability that gives random buffs/debuffs every turn?

[MesiDoomstalker]

Didn't they also ban that ability that gives random buffs/debuffs every turn?

Moody. Smogon banned it, but official events haven't. Official events rarely ban moves or abilities or items. They usually ban things like legendaries and event only mon

[Lord Raziere]

.....y'know, this is why there are moves like, Faint Attack, Swift, Magical Leaf, Aerial Ace and whatnot that never ever miss right? like, even if you use Double Team, they still hit. its why they are there. that and I'm pretty sure there is an ability to prevent confusion, called Own Tempo?

in fact I have a level 81 Lilligant with both Magical Leaf and Own Tempo. I consider her one of my best pokemon. seems I got those randomness worries taken care of.

[cobaltstarfire]

...Healing? Bouncing off magic? Where does that come from. Reading over information on Goodra

I suspect the "healing" that they are getting from goodra and the others is from the fact that they have Hydration as one of their abilities, (hydration=rain heals status problems).

And no, "slimy" does not carry the connotation of "poisonous" for me, though that's probably super obvious by now.

[boj0]

.....y'know, this is why there are moves like, Faint Attack, Swift, Magical Leaf, Aerial Ace and whatnot that never ever miss right? like, even if you use Double Team, they still hit. its why they are there. that and I'm pretty sure there is an ability to prevent confusion, called Own Tempo?

in fact I have a level 81 Lilligant with both Magical Leaf and Own Tempo. I consider her one of my best pokemon. seems I got those randomness worries taken care of.

Except those moves have mediocre distribution, and paltry base power; and those moves lose their only gimmick if the opponent simply doesn't use evasion boosting? Not to mention that relying on those moves would stagnate the Pokemon you could bring to a match (ones with evasion/ones that ignore it, and a stale/forced meta is the reason Smogon bans most things). Own Tempo isn't a horrible ability, you could spam Outrage, absorb Swaggers, and not become terrified of No Guard Dynamic Punch, however, those are all sub optimal options and any Pokemon that can use Own Tempo usually has a better ability that doesn't rely on the opponent using one niche strategy (Regenerator, Contrary, etc.)

Finally, even in the official VGC meta, you usually won't see a huge reliance on evasion because it has random effectiveness, no one wants to lose Worlds because the opponent broke through Double Team.

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Also, Lilligant has terrible coverage and mediocre stats, so using that as your counter argument just proves my point

[Illven]

Except those moves have mediocre distribution, and paltry base power; and those moves lose their only gimmick if the opponent simply doesn't use evasion boosting? Not to mention that relying on those moves would stagnate the Pokemon you could bring to a match (ones with evasion/ones that ignore it, and a stale/forced meta is the reason Smogon bans most things). Own Tempo isn't a horrible ability, you could spam Outrage, absorb Swaggers, and not become terrified of No Guard Dynamic Punch, however, those are all sub optimal options and any Pokemon that can use Own Tempo usually has a better ability that doesn't rely on the opponent using one niche strategy (Regenerator, Contrary, etc.)

Finally, even in the official VGC meta, you usually won't see a huge reliance on evasion because it has random effectiveness, no one wants to lose Worlds because the opponent broke through Double Team.

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Also, Lilligant has terrible coverage and mediocre stats, so using that as your counter argument just proves my point

For instance if you run Lilligant that's one less slot for your six copies of Shellthulu.

[boj0]

For instance if you run Lilligant that's one less slot for your six copies of Shellthulu.

Oh Shellthulu, one of these days I'll make new YouTube videos with forum teams...

[Mando Knight]

Own Tempo isn't a horrible ability, you could spam Outrage, absorb Swaggers, and not become terrified of No Guard Dynamic Punch, however, those are all sub optimal options and any Pokemon that can use Own Tempo usually has a better ability that doesn't rely on the opponent using one niche strategy (Regenerator, Contrary, etc.)

Own Tempo + Outrage is only a valid combo on Smeargle, anyway... and if you're using Smeargle as a sweeper, you're already reaching into the bag of unreliable gimmick teams.

[Lord Raziere]

Except those moves have mediocre distribution, and paltry base power; and those moves lose their only gimmick if the opponent simply doesn't use evasion boosting? Not to mention that relying on those moves would stagnate the Pokemon you could bring to a match (ones with evasion/ones that ignore it, and a stale/forced meta is the reason Smogon bans most things). Own Tempo isn't a horrible ability, you could spam Outrage, absorb Swaggers, and not become terrified of No Guard Dynamic Punch, however, those are all sub optimal options and any Pokemon that can use Own Tempo usually has a better ability that doesn't rely on the opponent using one niche strategy (Regenerator, Contrary, etc.)

Finally, even in the official VGC meta, you usually won't see a huge reliance on evasion because it has random effectiveness, no one wants to lose Worlds because the opponent broke through Double Team.

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Also, Lilligant has terrible coverage and mediocre stats, so using that as your counter argument just proves my point

So?

I have literally no idea how the metagame works. jokes on you, you thought that your talking to someone who knew what they're talking about, I don't. I'm so casual, I don't even care that your right. I've played pokemon since GS and my methods for winning the games have never steered me wrong. I capture and use pokemon cause I like 'em first, not because they have what is considered good stats.

course it probably mean I'll never win against you or whatever, but I don't care. at least I'm not doing the insanity that is breeding IV's while seeking out the best pokemon with stats with no regards to whether I like the pokemon or not. I'd rather face you with the pokemon I like and used to bring down gym leaders and champions than ones you have to make just to compete in some ruleset I don't really get, and don't really care to know. at that point, its just unfun work. and I'm not here for that. I mean, even if I invest all the time and effort, there is no guarantee it'll make any of it fun, so, not worth the investment. I mean I'm already kind of bored of trying to get a shiny Charizard even when I'm using the Masuda method, so I wonder if even thats really worth it at all.

and dude, I've beaten Mega-Rayquaza before, the most overpowered pokemon currently in existence, seeing as its banned even from Smogon's highest tier. I've beaten mega-evolutions without using then myself. heck, I'm pretty sure I've beaten almost every pokemon there is. I wonder just how much of a difference the player control and IV training actually makes, if a casual like me can do that.

[boj0]

So?

I have literally no idea how the metagame works. jokes on you, you thought that your talking to someone who knew what they're talking about, I don't. I'm so casual, I don't even care that your right. I've played pokemon since GS and my methods for winning the games have never steered me wrong. I capture and use pokemon cause I like 'em first, not because they have what is considered good stats.

course it probably mean I'll never win against you or whatever, but I don't care. at least I'm not doing the insanity that is breeding IV's while seeking out the best pokemon with stats with no regards to whether I like the pokemon or not. I'd rather face you with the pokemon I like and used to bring down gym leaders and champions than ones you have to make just to compete in some ruleset I don't really get, and don't really care to know. at that point, its just unfun work. and I'm not here for that. I mean, even if I invest all the time and effort, there is no guarantee it'll make any of it fun, so, not worth the investment. I mean I'm already kind of bored of trying to get a shiny Charizard even when I'm using the Masuda method, so I wonder if even thats really worth it at all.

and dude, I've beaten Mega-Rayquaza before, the most overpowered pokemon currently in existence, seeing as its banned even from Smogon's highest tier. I've beaten mega-evolutions without using then myself. heck, I'm pretty sure I've beaten almost every pokemon there is. I wonder just how much of a difference the player control and IV training actually makes, if a casual like me can do that.

Cool story bro.
I'm glad you literally refuted your entire argument in the first sentence by saying you don't actually understand the meta that you're arguing against.
Then topping it off with a bunch of non-related anecdotal stuff about beating random Pokémon that in no way counters my original post.

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Joke's on you, you thought you were talking to someone who breeds Pokémon

[Derjuin]

So?

I have literally no idea how the metagame works. jokes on you, you thought that your talking to someone who knew what they're talking about, I don't. I'm so casual, I don't even care that your right. I've played pokemon since GS and my methods for winning the games have never steered me wrong. I capture and use pokemon cause I like 'em first, not because they have what is considered good stats.

course it probably mean I'll never win against you or whatever, but I don't care. at least I'm not doing the insanity that is breeding IV's while seeking out the best pokemon with stats with no regards to whether I like the pokemon or not. I'd rather face you with the pokemon I like and used to bring down gym leaders and champions than ones you have to make just to compete in some ruleset I don't really get, and don't really care to know. at that point, its just unfun work. and I'm not here for that. I mean, even if I invest all the time and effort, there is no guarantee it'll make any of it fun, so, not worth the investment. I mean I'm already kind of bored of trying to get a shiny Charizard even when I'm using the Masuda method, so I wonder if even thats really worth it at all.

and dude, I've beaten Mega-Rayquaza before, the most overpowered pokemon currently in existence, seeing as its banned even from Smogon's highest tier. I've beaten mega-evolutions without using then myself. heck, I'm pretty sure I've beaten almost every pokemon there is. I wonder just how much of a difference the player control and IV training actually makes, if a casual like me can do that.

Breeding IVs is actually pretty easy, truth be told. You just have to pay attention to things. FOR EXAMPLE - In I believe it was Gen 5, baby pokemon caught in the wild would have 3 perfect IVs, because they were included in the "can't breed" category. This was removed in Gen 6 because their evolutions can breed; so catch a bunch of Riolus in Gen 5, and transfer them up; boom, bunch of field pokemon with 3 perfect IVs.

For me anymore, breeding IVs takes little more than maybe an hour - the more you do it, the easier it becomes, as you eventually will have a pokemon in every egg group - male and female - with 5-6 perfect IVs. Though, if you want a shiny pokemon, you have to be dedicated to it - even if it's boring. It took me a little over 1,500 eggs hatched to get my shiny Ralts, and that's with Masuda + shiny charm. If you don't think it's worth it to hatch so many eggs, then maybe an engineered shiny just isn't for you. Fished-up shinies are much more common, though obviously you can't fish up everything so there's only so many you can get.

Regarding the accuracy/evasion-ignoring moves, most of them lack the power to actually make them usable - there's almost always a better option, even with evasion on the board. There's also ways to simply ignore evasion without resorting to low-power attacks - Haze, Roar, and Whirlwind all lack accuracy, will reset stat changes, and the latter two come with even more built-in utility which makes them much more usable.

RE: Story mode, recall that most pokemon used by NPCs have randomized/poor IVs and no EVs (except possibly the E4 pokemon, who seem to have perfect IVs, but I don't know about the EV status of their pokes); still, they are NPCs, and can't engage in mindgames, including predicting moves/switches and bluffing. In fact, most of them never switch, and rarely use moves intelligently except when specifically programmed to do so. Even the most potent NPC in pokemon games will lose to a human player, as long as the deck isn't stacked against the player (like in Battle Tower). In fact, there are combos made specifically to prey on the terrible NPC AI, and these combos frequently get to hundreds of battles won in a row. You simply can't compare story mode/NPC battles to player battles; they are different beasts entirely.

[MichaelGoldclaw]

So?

I have literally no idea how the metagame works. jokes on you, you thought that your talking to someone who knew what they're talking about, I don't. I'm so casual, I don't even care that your right. I've played pokemon since GS and my methods for winning the games have never steered me wrong. I capture and use pokemon cause I like 'em first, not because they have what is considered good stats.

course it probably mean I'll never win against you or whatever, but I don't care. at least I'm not doing the insanity that is breeding IV's while seeking out the best pokemon with stats with no regards to whether I like the pokemon or not. I'd rather face you with the pokemon I like and used to bring down gym leaders and champions than ones you have to make just to compete in some ruleset I don't really get, and don't really care to know. at that point, its just unfun work. and I'm not here for that. I mean, even if I invest all the time and effort, there is no guarantee it'll make any of it fun, so, not worth the investment. I mean I'm already kind of bored of trying to get a shiny Charizard even when I'm using the Masuda method, so I wonder if even thats really worth it at all.

and dude, I've beaten Mega-Rayquaza before, the most overpowered pokemon currently in existence, seeing as its banned even from Smogon's highest tier. I've beaten mega-evolutions without using then myself. heck, I'm pretty sure I've beaten almost every pokemon there is. I wonder just how much of a difference the player control and IV training actually makes, if a casual like me can do that.

You know, as someone who is kinda in the same boat, I must say calm the frack down. You have fun with your method of play. Cool, we get that. We're not saying it's not fun to play your way, we're just saying that way isn't the optimal way to play. I rarely play competitive and when I do, it's on something like Showdown where you don't have to do crazy stuff like breeding.

But still, your meta doesn't have to be THE meta

[Aotrs Commander]

You know, as someone who is kinda in the same boat, I must say calm the frack down. You have fun with your method of play. Cool, we get that. We're not saying it's not fun to play your way, we're just saying that way isn't the optimal way to play. I rarely play competitive and when I do, it's on something like Showdown where you don't have to do crazy stuff like breeding.

But still, your meta doesn't have to be THE meta

Speaking as someone who ALSO doesn't play competatively... Yeah. Evasion is not a particular problem when you're playing the AI. (Hell, if you got really annoyed about the RNG, that's what save-and-reload is for.) I don't even bother with any counters, usually, just hit it until it falls over is usually good enough. And, come to that, if they are to hand at the time, I use the reverse (Mud Slap/Sand Attack) during boss battles on the AI myself.

The smogon stuff, though, is specifcally all gubbins for multiplayer player human verses human, which is entirely different kettle of fish. It's the different between me playing Sword of the Stars and basically having the AI just line up little men for me to knock down (which is, at the heart of it, basically what I play computer games for) and me playing my starship rules Accelerate & Attack on the tabletop against a human player. They are entiriely different experiences, played for different reasons; neither is more "valid" than the other. (You could theorhetically have a party full of Mewtwos - I am pretty sure I could, actualy, at this point) in single player, but you can't do that in multiplayer, for example.)

But they ARE different animals, so what applies to one doesn't always apply to the other.

And I mean, let's be fair - Pokemon is an easy game, when you get down to it. It's real easy to trivialise it with overlevelling or using legendaries or items etc and whatnot; but beating the difficultly level is not what, I suspect, any of us play the main game for.

I think it fair to say no-one here is going to rag on you, Raziere, specifically for playing the single player campaign noncompetatively. (The reponses you got were because, well, you were by your own admission, commenting on something you didn't know much about.) You happen to really like Delibird or something, you use it and more power to you. I, these days, tend to spend hours working out what my team is going to be, breeding it up for IVs (sometimes in its entirity), spending even more hours on Pokemon Amie maxing out the EVs and affection and whatnot and THEN playing the actual game! (With the imposed limitation that I try to avoid any kind of grinding, XP share is OFF and stays off and so the majority of the XP comes from all the trainer battles.)

The POINT of single-player computer games, in my opinion, is you can play them however you damn want for your own entertainment without upsetting anyone at the other end. You cannot, in my opinion, have Badwrongfun with a single player game, no matter how you play it, whether you play Pokemon "casually," whether you play every game on the very hardest setting and try to platinum (or equivilent) or whether you spend a statistically significant fraction of your Europa Universalis IV game reloading from the bad events; it don't matter to anyone but you.

(With exception of those sad people who can't accept that people don't like doing the same things they do, but then again, who cares about their opinion anyway?)

[Lord Raziere]

heh, sorry.

thats all I can really say.

still not gonna breed any IV's though....no matter how easy. its not really about the effort, its about not replacing the pokemon that I used since Unova or on my journeys that I nicknamed and such just for better stats. sentimental value y'know? sure most of them are from the wild and probably bad competitively but I can't replace them just for a tournament or whatever. oh well.

[cobaltstarfire]

If you really want to try to play "competitively" without the huge time sinc, you could use pokemon showdown or whatever that thing is that Smogon and Nugget Bridge* use to play online.

*Folks on Nugget Bridge are focused on Nintendo's official metagames and participating in real world tournaments

It lets you customize everything about your pokemon, IV's, EV's, Ability, Moves, even gender and whether it's shiny. I think Nugget Bridge folks mostly use it to practice, and to test teams out before committing to the time for breeding IV's and such. I think it also supports different generations of play, so if you want to get some gen 1 battling on you can.

Though you may want to drag some other people that you know to be helpful and friendly to play with with you, cause the random people on there can be really rude and unhelpful.


I agree that it's too much of a pain to breed IV's very much, especially in conjunction with hidden abilities and egg moves. Even with it having been made considerably easier, it still takes me weeks to get what I'm trying to get, and that's really just too much time spent driving a bike round and round all day. I do like to breed pokemon on occasion, usually for egg moves and stuff, but I don't think I'm ever really going to try to breed competitive pokemon again like I did this past gen.

It's even harder to want to get into competitive battling via nintendo, because usually several legendaries end up being an important part of the meta-game. And I'm not really down with RNGing legendaries, it's just not worth the time and effort without the skill/experience needed to build and play a strong competitive team.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Cool story bro.
I'm glad you literally refuted your entire argument in the first sentence by saying you don't actually understand the meta that you're arguing against.
Then topping it off with a bunch of non-related anecdotal stuff about beating random Pokémon that in no way counters my original post.

This. Very much so, this.

Very few people attempt the meta in-cartridge anyway. The actual games are super easy.

[Starwulf]

This. Very much so, this.

Very few people attempt the meta in-cartridge anyway. The actual games are super easy.

I feel like this needs one exception made, and that's the subway battles. I've not been able to make it to the subway boss, ever, no matter how much time I put into thinking about my team(this excludes IV/EV stuff, as, much like Raziere, I just don't bother with it as I don't participate in the meta). I feel like the subway battles are somewhat close to the actual meta-game due to the insane difficulty. I can take out the entire Elite 4 with one pokemon, but still get my butt kicked by about battle 17-18 in the subway.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I feel like this needs one exception made, and that's the subway battles. I've not been able to make it to the subway boss, ever, no matter how much time I put into thinking about my team(this excludes IV/EV stuff, as, much like Raziere, I just don't bother with it as I don't participate in the meta). I feel like the subway battles are somewhat close to the actual meta-game due to the insane difficulty. I can take out the entire Elite 4 with one pokemon, but still get my butt kicked by about battle 17-18 in the subway.

Ya, most of the post-game battle systems since Emerald are mostly like this. But even then, they are optional. One should build a team to handle these challenges. In fact, that is what they are there for.

[noparlpf]

I'm pretty sure that some of those (Battle Tower, subway, &c.) cheat. Improbable accuracy or crit chance and stuff like that, and I think I've heard of one or two impossible movesets.

[Hunter Noventa]

I'm pretty sure that some of those (Battle Tower, subway, &c.) cheat. Improbable accuracy or crit chance and stuff like that, and I think I've heard of one or two impossible movesets.

pretty sure that at the least, stuff like the battle tower or what not will bring out a team strong against yours if you win too much. The solution is to swap out at least one mon on your team every so often.

[Aotrs Commander]

I feel like this needs one exception made, and that's the subway battles. I've not been able to make it to the subway boss, ever, no matter how much time I put into thinking about my team(this excludes IV/EV stuff, as, much like Raziere, I just don't bother with it as I don't participate in the meta). I feel like the subway battles are somewhat close to the actual meta-game due to the insane difficulty. I can take out the entire Elite 4 with one pokemon, but still get my butt kicked by about battle 17-18 in the subway.

Uhuh. Even my Black Team, which had (more by chance than design) is probably one of the most solid line-ups I have (Samurott, Exadrill, Krookodile, Galvantula, Chandulure/Victini and Archeops), EV optimised and not too bad on the IVs either (though they all caught not bred) never got further than a little beyond the first subway boss. (Though, actually, they may not have been fully optmised at the time I treid most at it, since i was trawling for th EV items, come to think of it.)

I think you basically have to make a team to specifically beat the subway, rather than just use a naturally pretty solid team.

[Icewraith]

Uhuh. Even my Black Team, which had (more by chance than design) is probably one of the most solid line-ups I have (Samurott, Exadrill, Krookodile, Galvantula, Chandulure/Victini and Archeops), EV optimised and not too bad on the IVs either (though they all caught not bred) never got further than a little beyond the first subway boss. (Though, actually, they may not have been fully optmised at the time I treid most at it, since i was trawling for th EV items, come to think of it.)

I think you basically have to make a team to specifically beat the subway, rather than just use a naturally pretty solid team.

Not having your EVs and IVs lined up really hurts in the subway/tower/etc. A lot of popular pokemon for playthroughs are very glass-cannon-y, but without max speed IVs and EVs they take far more damage than they otherwise would because the subway pokemon DO have max speed and appropriate IVs and natures. It's less of a big deal with slow, beefy pokemon because you were probably going to get outsped anyways, and you maybe have 5-10% less HP or attack than the opponent. However, then you have to slog through the subway with your beefy, slow pokemon which takes longer and means you're more vulnerable to critical hits and random status effects screwing you over.

Ideally, your lead pokemon has insane speed and enough hitting power to take out whatever your opponent sends out and significantly damage the second before fainting and giving your other pokemon a free switch in. Your two backup pokemon need enough toughness to take a hit switching into whatever your lead simply won't be able to handle, take it down, and ideally get at least one hit or a status in on the next pokemon.

The other things working against an organically leveled team are that you probably don't have egg moves for coverage, and that you raised your pokemon in an environment where each one has up to five alternatives to switch to for an unfavorable matchup. You probably do have a solid 6 'mon team, but when you remove half of it the other half crumbles to stuff you easily handled during your playthrough.

Take a look at the example team here- four of them are weak to water, but that's OK because one resists water and one's attacking type nukes most water types. One resists grass. One is immune to ground. Two resist flying. Two resist ice. Two resist normal and sometimes you'll have one immune. One resists dragon, and dragons are definitely a thing in the subway even if you only see a couple through the course of the game. How are we doing on ice-based attacks? What about weather? Remove half this team and the other half has some real issues with type coverage and resistance.