General Anime/Manga Discussion 14: Second Cour

[Mx.Silver]

Oh, and if anybody else wanted to take a crack at giving me some recs as per Post 358, I'd really appreciate it.

Something I just noticed going back over your MAL page: Escalfowne isn't on it.
So assuming that wasn't just an oversight on your part, add that series to the recommendations. It's probably the best Fantasy series of 90s and even if it's not strictly in your wheelhouse, I would be surprised if it doesn't click with at someone in your group.
Also, afaik it's the series where Yoko Kano and Maaya Sakamoto (for whom it was also her first major VA role) first collaborated musically. So, there's that.

[cobaltstarfire]

Escaflowne is great, I'm glad to see someone else who likes it. (seems most people just pretend it doesn't exist, but it's really solid...I guess that makes it underrated or something).


We started watching Bodacious Space Pirates a few days ago, and it's really interesting to me. I think the mother character is really pretty! (weird observation, but I very rarely see anime characters and think "wow they're really pretty!") Well overall I think I really like the style this one is drawn in too, and the ship designs are really neat.

We're only on episode two, but I'm pretty excited for it, we haven't watched any sci-fi things in a while which helps it to be extra exciting!

On the other side of things I'm making the guy watch Digimon Adventure so that I don't have to explain what's going on in Digimon Adventure Tri. Sadly only the Dub is available (I think this is mostly sad for me cause I hate the Dubs opening theme). Though the Digimon Adventure dub isn't very bad, I can remember the original Japanese being just as corny in its own way so it's about the same even if things are localized and such. I'm still having to fill him in on relative power level of various enemies, since the dub leaves the life stages out when it describes new digimon

[Alent]

Can't really agree. Last Exile's ending is fine and thematically concludes the themes that were brought up earlier. A ton of bad stuff happening to the good guys at the beginning of the last act in a setting that was full of power imbalances and nasty stuff going on in the background is just normal writing.

Brainwashing one of the heroes into a villain is a cliche, its not the author trying to be different and it only happens to one character in a situation that makes sense. Dio never wanting to go near his Sister ever again had been set up as the key point of his character throughout his appearances in the show, not having that pay off would have been terrible writing.

Its not a tour de force of good writing either, but if you want to claim it committed any irredeemable narrative sins then the rules your using are inflexible and useless.

"You ruined it! " is the natural, expected, and proper reaction any time a story on track to be an 11 out of 10 suddenly drops to a 7 out of 10.

The most defining early scene of the conflict in Last Exile are of soldiers falling to their deaths because the Guild decided that a damaged but functional ship had been "lost", resulting in them pushing the eject button on the only thing keeping it afloat. The uncanny alley effect caused by the early 3DCG combined with the scene of soldiers panicking as their ship fell into the void made the scene all the more poignant. It portrays the horror of war and shows senseless murder in an amazingly powerful way all in one scene.

With the Guild solidly established as an antagonist by that one scene and the tone of the show firmly set by that battle, they didn't need an act 3 plot twist of an evil leader who leads by mindrape. They were actually more intimidating without a leader. Dio's sister could have been a strong personal antagonist to Alex and Dio "on the side" without needing to be main villain and without the tonal dissonance caused by the mind control and bizarre disintegration technology.

[DoctorFaust]

I just got done watching episode 12 of Bakemongatari, and I am genuinely disappointed in myself that I thought that there was nothing but fanservice and puns to it before I started watching it. I mean, there is a lot of that stuff, but there are some genuinely incredible moments in between them.

[JCarter426]

All the fate anime have issues.

I mean continuity issues, not content issues. It's not an adaptation of any single path, so it's a rather terrible introduction to the series. And then there's the ending they chose.

Dio's sister could have been a strong personal antagonist to Alex and Dio "on the side" without needing to be main villain and without the tonal dissonance caused by the mind control and bizarre disintegration technology.

I don't know... said bizarre disintegration technology is a big part of the setting. The Guild has a monopoly on technology, but the Exiles are beyond even them, because their world is kind of crap and everybody forgot their origins.

[mallorean_thug]

I just got done watching episode 12 of Bakemongatari, and I am genuinely disappointed in myself that I thought that there was nothing but fanservice and puns to it before I started watching it. I mean, there is a lot of that stuff, but there are some genuinely incredible moments in between them.

I'm a huge fan of the -monogatari series and NisiOisiN, but I'm going to warn you right now. None of the later stuff matches the highs of Bake (though a couple arcs in Second Season come close). While some of that can be attributed to the source material, a huge part of that comes down to the Director. Tatsuya Oishi was the director for Bake, but Nise onwards is all Yomoyuki Itamura who settled into a much tamer and less engaging visual style and rhythm. What happened to Oishi? Well, right after Bake finished airing, SHAFT announced that they'd adapt the prequel novel, Kizumonogatari, as a feature length movie, to be directed by Oishi . . . and that's basically all he's done for the last 4 years, outside of an episode or two in Monogatari Second Season, along with a couple of SHAFT's top animators (I'd give you names on that, but they've slipped my mind atm.)

So while I'm definitely enjoying Owarimonogatari, I'm far far more excited about the prospects of finally getting to see Kizumonogatari.

I would be super interested in any further thoughts you might have on the series.

[DoctorFaust]

I'm a huge fan of the -monogatari series and NisiOisiN, but I'm going to warn you right now. None of the later stuff matches the highs of Bake (though a couple arcs in Second Season come close). While some of that can be attributed to the source material, a huge part of that comes down to the Director. Tatsuya Oishi was the director for Bake, but Nise onwards is all Yomoyuki Itamura who settled into a much tamer and less engaging visual style and rhythm. What happened to Oishi? Well, right after Bake finished airing, SHAFT announced that they'd adapt the prequel novel, Kizumonogatari, as a feature length movie, to be directed by Oishi . . . and that's basically all he's done for the last 4 years, outside of an episode or two in Monogatari Second Season, along with a couple of SHAFT's top animators (I'd give you names on that, but they've slipped my mind atm.)

So while I'm definitely enjoying Owarimonogatari, I'm far far more excited about the prospects of finally getting to see Kizumonogatari.

I would be super interested in any further thoughts you might have on the series.

I've only been watching an episode a week, so I can't really give my thoughts about specific arcs, but I do have a few thoughts on the series as a whole so far.

Firstly Fantastic sound direction. Great music, great VAs, and if I'm remembering correctly, pretty damn good foley. Goes a really long way to set the tone of the show, and I appreciate the fact that they're aren't just using cicadas to provide background noise all the damn time.

Second: The characters can be a little hit and miss, in my opinion. Like I said, I'm only 12 episodes into the first season of a multi-season show, but a few of the characters aren't particularly likable *coughHachikujicough* and besides 'Gahara, don't seem to have changed much during their arcs. I'm not sure why people keep telling me that I should be afraid of Nadeko, though.

Third: The animation, when there is any, is very well done. The director made very good use of limited movement and more abstracted backgrounds, and I can definitely see why this style has become the one SHAFT is most notable for. Not the biggest fan of the character designs for the most part, but Oshino's and the Rainy Devil's pretty damn good.

Fourth: The writing can also be a little hit and miss. When characters are just interacting normally, the dialogue is generally very good, but I don't like how quite a lot of the humor seems to be coming from Araragi overreacting to things. Episode 12's probably had the best so far, but episode 11 made me hate a character that hasn't even appeared onscreen, which, you know, is good thing in my book.

So, overall, a damn good show with some amazing visuals, even if it is one that seems to rely on being strange a little too much. Even if the rest of the series had been mediocre as all hell, it still would've been worth it for episode 12 alone. Especially the starry sky scene.

Oh, and Kanbaru is totally best girl. 'Gahara and Araragi's dynamic is great, don't get me wrong, but Kanbaru's perviness and energetic...ness? make her so damn fun to see onscreen.

[Alent]

I don't know... said bizarre disintegration technology is a big part of the setting. The Guild has a monopoly on technology, but the Exiles are beyond even them, because their world is kind of crap and everybody forgot their origins.

Oh, I don't mean "all guild technology is inappropriate", it's "this one technology that appears once is inappropriate". For all intents and purposes, floater units aside, the Guild is still relatively within the limits of 21st century science- gunpowder, robotics, etc., and that one tech's removal wouldn't threaten that advantage... but it's presence does call into question why they're using gunpowder based weaponry on a space station with no supply of saltpeter when a suitable energy based weapon alternative is available.

Edit: On an entirely different note, I'm excited, I finally managed to source a subtitled copy of the Lensman anime adaptation. Haven't seen this since Sci-fi aired it forever ago. Wish the E.E. Smith estate would sign off on a DVD release.

[ex cathedra]

I've only been watching an episode a week, so I can't really give my thoughts about specific arcs, but I do have a few thoughts on the series as a whole so far.

Firstly Fantastic sound direction. Great music, great VAs, and if I'm remembering correctly, pretty damn good foley. Goes a really long way to set the tone of the show, and I appreciate the fact that they're aren't just using cicadas to provide background noise all the damn time..

Satoru Kosaki's work on the monogatari series' score is really dear to me.

[Mx.Silver]

Escaflowne is great, I'm glad to see someone else who likes it. (seems most people just pretend it doesn't exist, but it's really solid...I guess that makes it underrated or something).

It is very much an under-appreciated series.
I've always suspected this had a lot to do with how rough a time it had in localisation, at least in the Anglosphere. Its English language dub is extremely bad, going the extra mile by significantly re-writing at least one of the side characters and creating new plot inconsistencies. Then the North America and UK broadcasting licence was picked-up by Fox Kids, who were of the opinion that it wouldn't sell well with the teenage boy demographic they wanted to market it towards. So they got rid of the old opening theme and then proceeded to start heavily editing and cutting the episodes to try and downplay that Hitomi was the protagonist, going so far as to cut the entire first episode from their broadcast run. IIRC they ended-up abandoning the broadcast run before the end anyway.

As a result, it never spread too far outside of those of us in the subs crowd, and so never got the level of attention received by some of its contemporaries.

We started watching Bodacious Space Pirates a few days ago, and it's really interesting to me. I think the mother character is really pretty! (weird observation, but I very rarely see anime characters and think "wow they're really pretty!") Well overall I think I really like the style this one is drawn in too, and the ship designs are really neat.

We're only on episode two, but I'm pretty excited for it, we haven't watched any sci-fi things in a while which helps it to be extra exciting!

Glad you're enjoying it. Also good that you like the space ships, because you will be spending a fair bit of time watching how they're crewed and piloted

[cobaltstarfire]

It is very much an under-appreciated series.
I've always suspected this had a lot to do with how rough a time it had in localisation, at least in the Anglosphere. Its English language dub is extremely bad, going the extra mile by significantly re-writing at least one of the side characters and creating new plot inconsistencies. Then the North America and UK broadcasting licence was picked-up by Fox Kids, who were of the opinion that it wouldn't sell well with the teenage boy demographic they wanted to market it towards. So they got rid of the old opening theme and then proceeded to start heavily editing and cutting the episodes to try and downplay that Hitomi was the protagonist, going so far as to cut the entire first episode from their broadcast run. IIRC they ended-up abandoning the broadcast run before the end anyway.

As a result, it never spread too far outside of those of us in the subs crowd, and so never got the level of attention received by some of its contemporaries.

That's not too surprising to hear at all, I vaguely remember seeing a few of the dubbed version, but pretty swiftly got sucked up into subs since I had a friend with access to subbed things in general, and a family friend who was Japanese who sometimes gave me recordings of things off of Japanese TV. (Got to see Mewtwo strikes back uncut including the short about the other clones, along with wacky Japanese Commercials, couldn't understand much of what was being said, but it sure conveyed it's story and purpose really well inspite of that).

Thinking back to then, I'm glad that it was near the end of companies picking up anime and butchering or combining them in the name of western localization and such.

Escaflowne has a great soundtrack too, you can't say no to Yoko Kanno. Wasn't there a manga version of Escaflowne that was aimed more at a male audience? I know there's so many different versions of the story, but I've only seen the anime, and the movie...though I don't much like the movie.

[Rodin]

I actually saw the movie first, and it soured me on the series enough that I never went out and watched it. I did at one point watch the first few episodes, and the tone difference is so great I coudln't believe it was the same series.

Looking around, seems like it would be difficult to (legally) track down. There's used copies available, but after a friend of mine wound up with a load of bootlegs that way once I've never trusted that option when it comes to DVDs.

[cobaltstarfire]

I actually saw the movie first, and it soured me on the series enough that I never went out and watched it. I did at one point watch the first few episodes, and the tone difference is so great I coudln't believe it was the same series.

Looking around, seems like it would be difficult to (legally) track down. There's used copies available, but after a friend of mine wound up with a load of bootlegs that way once I've never trusted that option when it comes to DVDs.

There were several box sets that were released of the original, though they do look pretty hard to come by cause they're all out of print now. Supposedly Funimation bought the rights for the movie and TV series, but they haven't done anything with them as far as I can tell.


It's a little weird now to realize that what I was watching in highschool was very likely fan-subs on VHS.

[Closet_Skeleton]

"You ruined it! " is the natural, expected, and proper reaction any time a story on track to be an 11 out of 10 suddenly drops to a 7 out of 10.

If you're going to be unreasonable you're not going to convince anyone of the relevance of your hyperbolic conclusions.

Psychopathic hedonistic dictators are pretty standard villains in adventure stories and Last Exile never pretended to be anything but a standard adventure story with cool visuals. So basically your argument is just 'it was only a good show not a great show so it tricked me!'

With the Guild solidly established as an antagonist by that one scene and the tone of the show firmly set by that battle, they didn't need an act 3 plot twist of an evil leader who leads by mindrape. They were actually more intimidating without a leader.

If you prefer impersonal villains that's fair, but that doesn't mean you can call something that's clearly not a plot twist due to not contradicting any previous information a plot twist.

Rich parents mind rape their children in real life, as do autocratic regimes to their citizens, its not something I see as that fantastical. Last Exile just dresses it up differently, which is what the show has been treating every aspect of its narrative all along and is the main reason why people watch it.

Dio's sister could have been a strong personal antagonist to Alex and Dio "on the side" without needing to be main villain

Not really. Someone had to be leading an evil faction within Guild, otherwise you'd end up with 'everyone in Guild is evil' which would be counter to the message of the series. Sure they could have gone with 'the social structure of Guild makes it being good impossible' but this is an adventure series, not a Marxist parable on social engineering and business management.

Adding another villain who wasn't Dio's sister would just have been wasting set up. So you're just being angry about how the show squicked you out, which if the story was inept you wouldn't be effected by so strongly. Maybe the show was better when it was being subtle, but going from subtleness to in your face ness is just a normal narrative progression upping the tension. It means they're following textbooks, not that they're "a textbook of bad ideas".

Lots of stories make the mistake of ramping up the tension too high, but that's not a mistake in their narrative planning, just a case of inelegant execution.

tonal dissonance

I'm not sure you're using that term correctly.

I mean continuity issues, not content issues. It's not an adaptation of any single path, so it's a rather terrible introduction to the series. And then there's the ending they chose.

I was just being snide. Mostly because I know a guy who hates the DEEN version despite never having watched it or read the novel just because he reads posts by fanboys on Tumbler/Reddit.

But if you're going to say 'it must adapt the novel exactly' then I have no sympathy, no sympathy at all.

All the paths in the novels themselves have continuity issues. The whole thing is full of plot holes if you treat it as three actual diverging stories rather than just 3 separate stories in different worlds.

but it's presence does call into question why they're using gunpowder based weaponry on a space station with no supply of saltpeter when a suitable energy based weapon alternative is available.

Why use robotic tentacles and giant chainsaws when you have perfectly good guns?

If you're going to use that sort of logic you should have turned it off a 'flying iron clads'.

[Arbane]

Escaflowne has a great soundtrack too, you can't say no to Yoko Kanno. Wasn't there a manga version of Escaflowne that was aimed more at a male audience? I know there's so many different versions of the story, but I've only seen the anime, and the movie...though I don't much like the movie.

IIRC, there were two different Escaflowne manga, neither of which was much like the anime.
(And thirding this recommendation - Escaflowne's a good show, possibly except for the eccentric art style.)

[Sith_Happens]

(And thirding this recommendation - Escaflowne's a good show, possibly except for the eccentric art style.)

E.g.- noses that could easily be used as lethal stabbing weapons.

[JCarter426]

I was just being snide. Mostly because I know a guy who hates the DEEN version despite never having watched it or read the novel just because he reads posts by fanboys on Tumbler/Reddit.

But if you're going to say 'it must adapt the novel exactly' then I have no sympathy, no sympathy at all.

All the paths in the novels themselves have continuity issues. The whole thing is full of plot holes if you treat it as three actual diverging stories rather than just 3 separate stories in different worlds.

The anime treated it as all one story, rather than three separate stories. That's exactly the problem here.

It doesn't have to adapt the visual novel exactly... but because it doesn't, it doesn't fit with the other adaptations that well. It's a loose adaptation of the whole visual novel rather than a more accurate adaptation of one of the paths, while the later adaptations more or less stick to each path. There is no accurate adaptation of the Fate path, the introduction in the visual novel, so it's hard to recommend the Fate/Stay Night anime as an introduction to the series. If you just want to watch the one Fate/Stay Night anime it's fine, but if you plan to watch it as part of a series, there are other factors to consider.

I mean, it's not a huge problem. As I said, that was what I watched first, and there weren't any disasters. I was just a little confused as to how to proceed afterwards. But knowing what I know, I still hesitate to recommend it to anyone else. Which is unfortunate because I thought they got a lot of things right. If you could cut out the content from the other paths, and replace that with some of the details that were glossed over, and make the ending just a bit less anticlimactic (although that's mostly down to the source material) then it would be a fine adaptation.

And on a completely unrelated matter, I just started watching Bakemonogatari as well. It's been on my list for years, so when I saw mention of it here I thought now is as good a time as any. And I'm liking it so far. I like non-traditional fantasy, and the visual style is really distinctive... not just the art, but the camera placement, the way CGI is used to make elements stand out, and then the abstract stuff. One of my favorite bits of those was with the typo of Araragi's name.

[Prime32]

The anime treated it as all one story, rather than three separate stories. That's exactly the problem here.

It doesn't have to adapt the visual novel exactly... but because it doesn't, it doesn't fit with the other adaptations that well. It's a loose adaptation of the whole visual novel rather than a more accurate adaptation of one of the paths, while the later adaptations more or less stick to each path.

Not... really? It's an adaptation of the Fate route with a few minor scenes from UBW thrown in (e.g. "Shirou encounters Rider"), and some original content including a short arc with Caster that's inspired by both UBW and HF. And in terms of tone it's all Fate.

[JCarter426]

Yeah, but that's kind of a problem because the later path adaptations have to either repeat that stuff or skip it even though it belongs in that path. Like I said, it's not a big problem, but I think that stuff would've been better off left out of the Fate route.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I don't see what's so anti-climatic about

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killing the badguys in a way that requires previous character growth and then the heroine choosing a new different path due to character growth.

An anticlimax to me is where one of these things happen:

1. Most of the story threads are left hanging.
2. The conclusion is different to what was previously expected:
a) The problem is solved by a previously unimportant character and isn't tied into previous character development (deus ex machina)
b) The scope and tension drops dramatically
c) Completely new plot threads are introduced and solved instead of the solutions the story was building towards
d) The story shows that it clearly has nothing actually to say about the themes its brought up (which is different to the story asking a question and then admitting it doesn't have an answer which can still say a lot if its done well)
3. The general quality/budget drops

Missing an epilogue can't be an anti-climax because by definition epilogues come after climaxes.

[ZaneShadow]

Somewhat late, but am I the only one that was really mad about how Rokka no Yuusha ended their first season?

[Sallera]

No, you were certainly not. The abrupt tonal shift was grating, the BGM for the last few minutes was awful by comparison, and I was basically wondering where the heck the person who directed the rest of the show had disappeared to. They'd have been better off just ending it with the last exchange with Flemy.

[DoctorFaust]

I've had quite a bit of free time over the past few days after finally finishing my goddamn engineering design project for the semester, so I finished up Bonnouji. The story was kinda cliche, and I didn't like how they kept time-skipping without giving any indication of it, but it was adorable and heartwarming, so I enjoyed the hell out of it.

Oh, and because I'm a massive, massive nerd, I'd like to share a picture I took a few days back.

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[ex cathedra]

No, you were certainly not. The abrupt tonal shift was grating, the BGM for the last few minutes was awful by comparison, and I was basically wondering where the heck the person who directed the rest of the show had disappeared to. They'd have been better off just ending it with the last exchange with Flemy.

to be honest i'm all about the mystery genre but the fact that the entire first season of what was ostensibly an action/adventure anime turned into a locked room mystery was off-putting for many viewers in its own right

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Oh, and because I'm a massive, massive nerd, I'd like to share a picture I took a few days back.

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You are an absolute nerd and that is amazing.

[Sith_Happens]

Spoiler: MFW Cure Sunshine debuts

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Spoiler: MFW next episode preview

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EDIT:

Spoiler: MFW Cure Sunshine knows how to Boss Tennis

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Spoiler: MFW Macross Flower-Missile Massacre

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SUNSHINE IS BEST PRECURE.

[Closet_Skeleton]

SUNSHINE IS BEST PRECURE.

In that episode, yes.

Spoiler: Next few episodes

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... I'm sorry.

[Sith_Happens]

In that episode, yes.

Spoiler: Next few episodes

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... I'm sorry.

Define "next few," because I'm on 29 now and the Sunshine Train has yet to stop.

...Notwithstanding that Toei apparently couldn't be bothered to animate a whole three-person transformation sequence and just cut hers up with Blossom+Marine's instead and hoped no one would notice.

[ex cathedra]

the owarimonogatari arc that (along with the season) wrapped up this week was pretty good, not to mention totally gorgeous; the art direction in the gaen-focused episodes was among the best i've seen since the first season.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Define "next few," because I'm on 29 now and the Sunshine Train has yet to stop.

I can't remember. Between her appearance and the final arc Cure Sunshine did nothing else I found memorable.

I only kind of vaguely recall her sort of jumping into a barrier/support roll for most of the combat scenes (sure she finishes the odd monster off but that just makes her interchangeable with the other two). Definately felt like "You've had your moment of awesome, now you have to ignore most of your martial arts skills so you don't get to overshadow your sempai".

I suppose the force fields are useful, but compared to Splash Star where everyone had force fields and flight as basic abilities just using force fields a fairy gives you seems lame. She doesn't even hit an enemy with a force field so hard it carves out a massive valley.

She's just kind of there for most of the rest of it. Does she even get a catchphrase?