Unchained monk Tier and fixing it

[animevacker1045]

I keep hearing that the Unchained Monk is just as weak as the original.
This doesn't seem right to me are people under valuing Qinggong powers?
they seem to be at least tier 4 to me if I am wrong please help me understand.

How would you fix the monk double the ki points give it, increase the bonus feat list to all fighter feats
give it path of war stuff all three any other ideas?

[Vhaidara]

Unchained Monk is T3. Haven't heard too much debate about that, except from people who missed the line about Qinggong, and when that was pointed out they changed stances.

My main complaint is that the monks who want to use weapons get shafted, since you can't use them with Style Strikes

[animevacker1045]

Thanks so much!

[Vhaidara]

As a note, I do open up their feats to all combat feats. Mostly because the monk list is just that useless.

For your other ideas

Doubled Ki points is probably overkill. They get a LOT out of their Ki pool. Maybe 50% increase.

Maneuver progression is very nice, but I'd actually be more inclined to allow them to Flurry as a standard (they only get 1 base attack then). What makes UnMonk cool is the Style Strikes, and those only work on Flurry

[Ssalarn]

Maneuver progression is very nice, but I'd actually be more inclined to allow them to Flurry as a standard (they only get 1 base attack then). What makes UnMonk cool is the Style Strikes, and those only work on Flurry

I feel like flurrying as a standard would get a little crazy with Flying Kick. You'd potentially be able to get the equivalent of two move actions plus a full attack.

[Vhaidara]

Note that when I said limit the attacks, I meant it is 1 attack, plus the bonus one from flurry (two at 11), and the extra for spending a ki point if you choose to.

I actually don't mind the flying kick combo. Monk is SUPPOSED to be the insanely mobile striker class.

[Kurald Galain]

As a note, I do open up their feats to all combat feats. Mostly because the monk list is just that useless.

I keep being surprised that the monk list doesn't include Weapon Finesse. Since as you point out, monks are supposed to be insanely mobile, it makes sense to be able to play them as high-dex low-str.

[Ssalarn]

I keep being surprised that the monk list doesn't include Weapon Finesse. Since as you point out, monks are supposed to be insanely mobile, it makes sense to be able to play them as high-dex low-str.

Thematically, yes, but mechanically I've found that the Unchained monk works best when he's primarily STR/WIS. Pumping WIS as a primary stat helps offset the two real weaknesses the class has, poor Will and a ki pool that's a bit too small for everything it's supposed to cover. It really should be an option with the bonus feats though, if for no other reason then to let the class support more Bruce Lee-type characters instead of all the best monks looking more like Zangief from Street Fighter.

[Vhaidara]

Ssalarn, did you consider that part of that is because getting Dex to hit and damage is a pain for them?

[Ssalarn]

Ssalarn, did you consider that part of that is because getting Dex to hit and damage is a pain for them?

Oh yeah, that's why I said it should be an option. I'd even be okay with a forced split like DEX to hit (via Weapon Finesse as a class bonus feat) and WIS to damage (maybe as a Ki strike rider), as long as the options were baked into the chassis and all accessible in the same book.

[Hal0Badger]

I look at Unchained Monk and see a nice class, maybe not in power-wise, but in terms of customization and holdhing himself in melee combat, it does a nice job while giving the feeling of a monk.

But can someone explain to me what is "Qinggong Powers" and how they interract with Unchained monk?

P.S. : I am totally new to pathfinder though I played 3.5 a lot, I just checked unchained monk and really really liked it, it is my base monk for any 3.5 campaign I dm now.

[Extra Anchovies]

Qinggong Monk is a heavily customizable "archetype" from Ultimate Magic that lets you trade away class features you don't want in exchange for cool SLAs that you cast by spending ki. Unchained Monk lets you learn one of the Qinggong Monk SLAs in place of a ki power. The list is here.

Personally, I think the uMonk is high T4 - good in combat, but I don't think it has quite enough to do outside of a fight. That's close enough to Paizo's general balance point that it's definitely an effective rework. If you want to bump its power up a bit give it 4th-level Wisdom-based psionic manifesting (same PP/powers known/max level progression as the Marksman) from the Psychic Warrior and Cryptic lists.

[Oberon Kenobi]

One of the ki powers that the Unchained Monk can get is Qinggong Power, which lets them take one of the options from the Qinggong Monk archetype. This gives them a lot of cool stuff to do with their ki pool.

Incidentally, is there still no "Extra Ki Power" feat? Because there should be if there isn't.

Edit: Aaaaand Kensai'd.

[Psyren]

I would agree with Anchovies and peg them at T4, which is a perfectly respectable spot for martials as any Barbarian or Ranger will tell you. The Ki+Qinggong powers can give a lot of utility, but they get so few of them and they're so starved for ki because they're still MAD (thus not having much leeway to boost Wis.) Maybe after they can get more than 9 ki powers over their entire career they'll be able to break into T3. Creating "Extra Ki Power" and adding that + Extra Ki to their bonus feats list is all it will take. Adding style feat chains to their bonus feats list (i.e. similar language to the MoMS) would move them even further into T3. Alternatively, adding in the Combat Stamina system from the same book (particularly the version where all full-BAB classes get it for free) also broadens their options enough to get them to T3 I think, particularly by reducing their MAD (e.g. Combat Expertise without 13 Int.)

But DPR-wise they are solid. They can get pounce + full BAB flurry and can later add Cold Ice Strike for a nice chunk of DPR. The full BAB also helps their melee considerably (particularly CMD) and the d10 HD means you can survive with less Con than the normal monk as well. You can build them respectably well for Str-, Dex- and Wis-based. Dex in particular, if your DM is letting you play this class it means you can multiclass Unchained Rogue for a Dex-to-damage option that actually works with flurry, and you can even end up with more ki than a straight monk gets.

[martixy]

Me, I'd move the "Speak all languages" earlier - say level 6 or 7.

Gives him an (arguably) relevant out of combat shtick for most of his career.

And more Ki powers. Or maybe separate them in 2 categories - combat and utility, and each time he gets a new power he gains one of both.

And I'd give them Weapon finesse with unarmed strike and monk weapons for free, which yes, may not be as effecting as Str-based monk, but it increases their options, is a painless change and is flavourful RP-wise.

Then again I'd make Weapon Finesse a property of the weapon, not of the character, but that's another point altogether.