What tier is a fully optimised twf rogue compared to other classes?

[Shnigda]

As the title. But rogue is optimised and other classes are not.
Also, what are the key points that would raise or lower its tier (items, feats, prcs etc)
Perhaps tier is the wrong word - I mean how competitive is it compared to other classes?

EDIT: Clarification of question

[The Insanity]

Same tier it always is. Optimization doesn't change a class's tier.

[Brova]

A properly optimized Rogue has the DPS to kill just about anything of it's level in one or two rounds. That puts it at the "Rogue Balance Point" on the Same Game Test. There are two basic TWF Rogue builds. One is a melee build with a level of Barbarian for pounce, and a bunch of melee attacks. The other is a ranged build with flasks. The basic idea is to get a bunch of attacks at a reasonably good attack bonus, then redmist people in one round. Be sure to pick up wands of gravestrike and friends, as they will allow you to deal with most of the stuff that's normally immune to you.

[AvatarVecna]

Assuming that somehow, with the many many options available in 3.5, we got a rogue build that was "fully" optimized for TWF, that build would be capable of getting sneak attack on every attack every round, hitting with virtually every attack against virtually any opponent, and getting past SA blockers like type and/or fortification. Let's assume that they have enough combined resources to reliably one-round-kill any individual enemy, not taking pre-battle defensive buffs into account. Ultimately, the rogue is a glass cannon with a lot of skill points (although not enough to be super-good at too much). A rogue optimizing both TWF and skills can be a decent skillmonkey in one general category (B&E, social manipulation, textbook, etc).

A fully optimized skillmonkey rogue with perfect TWF style would be...high T4, at most. It's pretty perfectly good at killing things, and it's got a field of skills where it's pretty good, but outside the two admittedly wide fields, it's not got much to do. If it's a B&E expert, it won't be of much help during social manipulations, unless killing people would solve the issue. The rogue doesn't get enough skill points to be good at more than one broad field; the only way this rogue can really break into T3 (and low T3 at that) is to focus on Abuse Magic Device.

If you're wanting a highly capable skillmonkey with great martial prowess, a well-optimized Swift Hunter build will work just as well with fewer resources invested.

[(Un)Inspired]

What does "fully" optimized mean? I'm guessing it's a build that actually contains no rogue levels and nearly uses the term "rogue" to identify the build's mission statement.

It's probably something like StP Erudite 20 that has PAO'd into a creature with racial SA and gets TWF from Heroics and those feat granting gloves.

Sooooo... I guess I'd say a fully optimized TWF rogue is a serious powerhouse even though it's wasting some of its tremendous power on a gimmick.

[SinsI]

Like every other class with UMD as a class skill, optimized rogue is tier 1.

[Extra Anchovies]

Like every other class with UMD as a class skill, optimized rogue is tier 1.

It's all about those partially charged wands, amirite?

Without the ability to create their own magic items, I wouldn't put them up there. Artificer gets to be T1 because they can make their own items, they're darn good at it, and they can make spell-effect items two levels before other characters are capable of actually casting those spells.

[Brova]

@Abuse Magic Device debate: I think it's dishonest to claim abuse magic device as being equivalent to casting spells, but it's also unfair to say it shouldn't be counted. It is a thing the Rogue gets, and spells like wraithstrike or gravestrike help the Rogue solve encounters.

What does "fully" optimized mean? I'm guessing it's a build that actually contains no rogue levels and nearly uses the term "rogue" to identify the build's mission statement.

It's probably something like StP Erudite 20 that has PAO'd into a creature with racial SA and gets TWF from Heroics and those feat granting gloves.

Sooooo... I guess I'd say a fully optimized TWF rogue is a serious powerhouse even though it's wasting some of its tremendous power on a gimmick.

Don't be this guy. If you're allowing "fully optimized" to mean that, then there is one optimal build: the guy who wished for a ring of omnipotence.

[AvatarVecna]

@Abuse Magic Device debate: I think it's dishonest to claim abuse magic device as being equivalent to casting spells, but it's also unfair to say it shouldn't be counted. It is a thing the Rogue gets, and spells like wraithstrike or gravestrike help the Rogue solve encounters.

Seconded. Proper UMD optimization can make a rogue roughly the equivalent of a non-high-op Bard, but it still requires an expenditure or resources, so it's ultimately not as good as built-in spellcasting.

[Bortasz]

As the title. But rogue is optimised and other classes are not.
Also, what are the key points that would raise or lower its tier (items, feats, prcs etc)
Perhaps tier is the wrong word - I mean how competitive is it compared to other classes?

EDIT: Clarification of question

What other classes are in the team?

[Ssalarn]

Tier assumes optimization, so "fully optimized" won't change the tier unless the optimization involves multiclass or PrC options that are inherently of a higher tier.

You're looking at the high 4 to low 3 range.

[emeraldstreak]

Seconded. Proper UMD optimization can make a rogue roughly the equivalent of a non-high-op Bard, but it still requires an expenditure or resources, so it's ultimately not as good as built-in spellcasting.

Irrelevant, as ECL treasure vastly overshadows UMD expenditures.

Back to the topic, a fully optimized twf rogue would be PunPun two-weapon fighting because why not.

[Shnigda]

What other classes are in the team?

Other characters are Druid 4/Bard 3, Paladin 6, Wizard 5 (item creation), and Cleric 5. None are particularly optimised to my knowledge. (Wizard could be, but with item creation feats, Is it actually optimisation?)

[Brova]

(Wizard could be, but with item creation feats, Is it actually optimisation?)

Item creation feats are pretty reasonable. WBL buys pretty heavily into the idea that money = power, and item creation feats are a lot like having twice as much money. Also custom items are sweet.

[Dienekes]

Same tier it always is. Optimization doesn't change a class's tier.

Huh?

From this link

Also note that with enough optimization, it's generally possible to go up a tier, and if played poorly you can easily drop a few tiers, but this is a general averaging, assuming that everyone in the party is playing with roughly the same skill and optimization level. As a rule, parties function best when everyone in the party is within 2 Tiers of each other (so a party that's all Tier 2-4 is generally fine, and so is a party that's all Tier 3-5, but a party that has Tier 1 and Tier 5s in it may have issues).

For a player using Rogue as a base going all out abusing potion throwing and UMD I can see them probably breaking into a high Tier 3 to Tier 2. But if you're forcing them to specifically be a melee two-weapon fighter, probably nothing higher than a low Tier 3.

[AvatarVecna]

Irrelevant, as ECL treasure vastly overshadows UMD expenditures.

Which is resources that can't be spent on other things; a build that needs wands of grave/golemstrike to function (rogue) has fewer overall resources to work with than a build that doesn't (Swift Hunter). And spellcasting via class features is always better than spellcasting via items.

[EugeneVoid]

High Tier 4, Mid-Tier 3 maybe. Maybe even high tier 3 with extreme optimization. A Rogue 20 really doesn't have much from her class features that lend to high tier.

By the magical item argument, any class can be high tier...

How could rogue reach tier 2? One is assuming dual-wielding wands, effectively becoming a Sorcerer.

I doubt OP's rogue is even close to high Tier 4 as twf is notoriously weak when improperly optimized.

There are few classes that can really boost their tier through heavy optimization.

I think Fighter is one. OldTrees (I think) has made some I'd slot into tier 3. Warlock is debatable with its item crafting class features. Paladin is another. Bard can probably reach tier 2 with some optimization.

[Bortasz]

Other characters are Druid 4/Bard 3, Paladin 6, Wizard 5 (item creation), and Cleric 5. None are particularly optimised to my knowledge. (Wizard could be, but with item creation feats, Is it actually optimisation?)

Eee? My reaction to your team. Don't worry about tiers with this squad.
Druid/Bard is MAD Paladin is useless Wizard waste time/money/exp on crafting items instead of buying/stealing them.
Cleric maybe...

If you optimize you rogue you are good damage dealer/scout should have many different skills that will help you. You will be useful. And tiers measure usefulness.

[Brova]

A Rogue 20 really doesn't have much from her class features that lend to high tier.

I disagree with that. A Rogue gets a big pile of damage from sneak attack. Add something to get multiple attacks (i.e. TWF, various obscure weapons, Warshaper dip on a Changeling build), something to turn those into touch attacks (i.e. flasks, wraithstrike), and you have a build that can shred level appropriate opposition very efficiently. And the Rogue has the skills to stand up pretty well in the non-combat parts of the game, insofar as anyone without magic can.

[Mehangel]

Huh?

From this link

For a player using Rogue as a base going all out abusing potion throwing and UMD I can see them probably breaking into a high Tier 3 to Tier 2. But if you're forcing them to specifically be a melee two-weapon fighter, probably nothing higher than a low Tier 3.

A rogue breaking into tier 3, sure I can see it possible. But breaking into tier 2? Uh, no. I dont think it is possible for any rogue to become a tier 2 class. I mean seriously, what utterly game breaking stuff can a rogue accomplish?

[Brova]

A rogue breaking into tier 3, sure I can see it possible. But breaking into tier 2? Uh, no. I dont think it is possible for any rogue to become a tier 2 class. I mean seriously, what utterly game breaking stuff can a rogue accomplish?

What game breaking stuff is a Binder accomplishing with web vestiges? That's in tier 2. The tiers are not particularly consistent.

[Vhaidara]

What game breaking stuff is a Binder accomplishing with web vestiges? That's in tier 2. The tiers are not particularly consistent.

Summon Monster IX on a 5 round cooldown.

[AvatarVecna]

Bard can probably reach tier 2 with some optimization.

Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso +8 has high skills, great bardic performance, and 9th lvl spells; seems like a pretty solid T2 build to me, and it's not even as optimized as it can be.

[Brova]

Summon Monster IX on a 5 round cooldown.

So, casting that is about as good as your cohort's cohort's cohort's cohort's cohort? You get a bunch of 4th and 5th level spells, none of which are actually all that good at will. I fail to see how that is even as good as abuse magic device, let alone better.

Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso +8 has high skills, great bardic performance, and 9th lvl spells; seems like a pretty solid T2 build to me, and it's not even as optimized as it can be.

That's not a Bard build though. That's a Sublime Chord build. Why wouldn't you just be any other arcane spellcaster with a level of Prestige Bard?

[Bortasz]

Summon Monster IX on a 5 round cooldown.

Basically this...
Let's go full power. 20 lvl.
Every 5 round he summon for 20 round some powerful beast.
So before the first will return to his home plane there will be 4 new one to take his place... or 1k4+1 level 7 monsters... so minimum 4 IX monsters up to 20 VII monsters in 20 rounds... Add augmented summoning... and this guys have there own Special abilities.

[AvatarVecna]

That's not a Bard build though. That's a Sublime Chord build. Why wouldn't you just be any other arcane spellcaster with a level of Prestige Bard?

How about the build I provided having more than just a single level of the bardic music stuff, and more overall skills? And I don't see why using the Sublime Chord makes it "not a bard build".

[Brova]

How about the build I provided having more than just a single level of the bardic music stuff, and more overall skills? And I don't see why using the Sublime Chord makes it "not a bard build".

Uh, that build works exactly the same if you are a Wizard 8/Prestige Bard 1/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso +8. You miss out on a few skills, but having Int casting for a couple of levels makes up for that to a degree (you still need Cha for Sublime Chord). Except you get better casting for the first part of the build, and could take Incantatrix in addition to what you were already doing. Compare that to a Beguiler build like Beguiler 6/Rainbow Servant 10/Beguiler 4, which absolutely wants to be a Beguiler (thanks to the Beguiler's awesome casting mechanic). Or a Rogue build, which wants a bunch of Rogue levels for sneak attack.

[AvatarVecna]

Compare that to a Beguiler build like Beguiler 6/Rainbow Servant 10/Beguiler 4, which absolutely wants to be a Beguiler (thanks to the Beguiler's awesome casting mechanic). Or a Rogue build, which wants a bunch of Rogue levels for sneak attack.

I will admit that the bard is a less focused class than your examples, but that's literally what the bard is all about: not knowing what the hell it wants to be, and just trying to be everything at once. My build used 9 bard levels in the 20 level build, and the three things it's built to do (lots of skills, powerful Cha-based casting, and powerful bardic music) are basically all the bards got going for it anyway. It's literally just a Bard 20 with 9th level spells.

Also, your example wizard build could go that route, but it wouldn't be a bard, it would be a wizard pretending to be a bard through powerful magic, and a straight Wizard 20 can already do that (and better). It would good at Bard stuff, certainly, but there's better routes it can take; a wizard pretending to be a bard is just a slightly less exaggerated case of Pun-Pun dual-wielding and sneak attacking to be an optimized TWF rogue. Sublime Chord/Virtuoso is an upgrade for a Bard, but it's a downgrade for a wizard.

Final note: as far as Wizard/Sublime Chords go, I much prefer upgrading them with Ultimate Magus than upgrading them with Virtuoso. Personal opinion, sure, but I prefer theurge-casting and metamagic abuse to standard casting and bardic music.

[Brova]

I will admit that the bard is a less focused class than your examples, but that's literally what the bard is all about: not knowing what the hell it wants to be, and just trying to be everything at once.

That's kind of the problem though. There aren't really Bard builds, there are just guys with some Bard levels who have specialized into one of the various tricks Bards try to do. So you have caster Bards that you posted, and Gish-y Bards with various feats to do that, and a fear stacking build I saw somewhere. And most of those builds are just things anyone can do. It's either weak if you go straight Bard, or replaceable if you don't.

It's literally just a Bard 20 with 9th level spells.

That's not a Bard build though. That's like saying that the Psion posted above is literally a Rogue with manifesting.

Final note: as far as Wizard/Sublime Chords go, I much prefer upgrading them with Ultimate Magus than upgrading them with Virtuoso. Personal opinion, sure, but I prefer theurge-casting and metamagic abuse to standard casting and bardic music.

I'll give you that.

[AvatarVecna]

That's like saying that the Psion posted above is literally a Rogue with manifesting.

It's a difference in scale, though. A rogue is basically useless compared to a scion, while a Bard 20 (compared to my build) is only slightly worse at the spellcasting stuff. Sure, three spells levels makes a pretty big difference, but it's closer together than a rogue and a psion, so don't even play that game.

EDIT: Also, that psion build had literally no levels of rogue and was just pretending to be a rogue. My full caster bard build has 9 bard levels, which is 4 more base class levels than most caster builds have period.