General Exalted Discussion XVII: Edition of Cascading Years

[Rater202]

Limit Break is correct.

and, to repeat myself

Can I play a sorcerer who specializes in combat effects and actually, you know, participate in a fight? As opposed to 2E where you kind of had to spend a few rounds as sitting ducks before your spells flied off?

I asked about it a few months ago in a "what should sorcery be like" and while eventually we managed to start communicating clearly, the initial responses were "Be a sniper, shooting from far away" which um...you're affecting the fight but you're not in it, and "uses evocations for your blast stuff" which is not the same as combat sorcery, since it's not sorcery, and also combat sorcery is more than blasting.

So, if I'm the sorcerer and my primary weapon is sorcery, and my group gets ambushed, and will I be able to fire off a blast or sprout my wood dragon claws, or am I going to sit their and be useless for a round, possibly get attack, causing my spell to fizzle, or just not get to contribute to that fight as much as the others?

[The_Snark]

Does the game look any more... balanced or less broken?

Somewhat. Dexterity is still a god-stat, and the BP/XP dance is still present, so it's still entirely possible to shoot yourself in the foot during character creation. The social system looks less exploitable at first glance, although not un-exploitable. Combat looks... interesting, they've made changes to how it works on a very basic level; I'll have to try it out before I can comment any more than that.

The "dice trick" charms are interesting, but there are way too many of them and I wince at all the word count wasted by the same effect showing up over and over and over again in different trees. It feels like 1e's pseudo-excellencies all over again.

I had the same reaction. I know the 3e development team has stated they'd like to go back to Exalted's 1e roots, but I didn't think they meant mechanically - parts of this book feel like they were written by White Wolf circa 1999. There are a lot of new dice tricks, but only the 9-again rule is defined up front. There are Charms which activate when your opponent rolls 1s in an opposed roll of some sort, and Charms which reroll 1s that foil these, and Charms which bypass the rerolling-Charms… at this point, you should probably introduce some standardized terms. Martial Arts Charms are not compatible with Charms from other combat abilities, but "combat Ability" is not clearly defined; it's pretty obvious you're not supposed to blend MA with Brawl or Melee, but what about Dodge or Resistance? Things like that.

And there are an awful lot of pseudo-Excellencies; that is, Charms whose only effect is to add dice/successes to a roll. Some of them count towards Excellency caps - these sometimes look good at first glance, but they all boil down to "your Excellency use is slightly more cost-effective under certain conditions". Others explicitly bypass dice caps, or circumvent the issue by using dice tricks - these have a little more variance but usually add up to "you have a slightly higher skill ceiling than an Excellency would allow, under certain conditions". Which is sort of... dull.

There are plenty of cool and interesting-looking Charms, but they're mixed in with speedbumps, extremely situational Charms, and long convoluted chains of prerequisites. (Some Abilities fare better than others - Investigate and Larceny look neat, so far, while Socialize is a mess.) It's perplexing, because I feel like the 3e writing team has moved past this sort of mistake already.

Can I play a sorcerer who specializes in combat effects and actually, you know, participate in a fight? As opposed to 2E where you kind of had to spend a few rounds as sitting ducks before your spells flied off?

So, here's the basics of sorcery: when casting a spell, you take Shape Sorcery actions (Int+Occult, each success gives you a sorcery-mote) until you've accumulated enough sorcery-motes to cast the spell. Then you cast it. The net effect seems to be that spells are still time-consuming, but they don't actually cost you much in terms of motes. The sample combat spells we're given are all powerful-looking decisive attacks, and perfect defenses aren't nearly as common or reliable as they were in 2e or 2.5, so most enemies will not be able to laugh off your Flying Gullotine.

You can speed up the process by applying Occult Excellencies and other Charms to your Shape Sorcery rolls, but of course that will cost more. Most of 2e's restrictions about not being able to do anything other than shape the spell are gone, so you're not a sitting duck. You're perfectly free to parry, dodge, and use defensive Charms. You can even flurry shaping actions with sword-fighting, although of course you'll be taking penalties to both.

I haven't played a combat sorcerer, so I couldn't say how well this works out in practice, but it looks interesting enough that I'd like to try it sometime.

[Qwertystop]

Huh. So Sorcery becomes less about using your own power and more about using your skill to work with outside power? Since it doesn't cost motes, and speed is based entirely on how good you are at it. Interesting way to go about it - I think it fits better, since (as far as I recall from 2e - but I admit I was never as into the system as most of you are) sorcery has been about loopholes in the world rather than normal Charm-based magics.

[Rater202]

So, here's the basics of sorcery: when casting a spell, you take Shape Sorcery actions (Int+Occult, each success gives you a sorcery-mote) until you've accumulated enough sorcery-motes to cast the spell. Then you cast it. The net effect seems to be that spells are still time-consuming, but they don't actually cost you much in terms of motes. The sample combat spells we're given are all powerful-looking decisive attacks, and perfect defenses aren't nearly as common or reliable as they were in 2e or 2.5, so most enemies will not be able to laugh off your Flying Gullotine.

You can speed up the process by applying Occult Excellencies and other Charms to your Shape Sorcery rolls, but of course that will cost more. Most of 2e's restrictions about not being able to do anything other than shape the spell are gone, so you're not a sitting duck. You're perfectly free to parry, dodge, and use defensive Charms. You can even flurry shaping actions with sword-fighting, although of course you'll be taking penalties to both.

I haven't played a combat sorcerer, so I couldn't say how well this works out in practice, but it looks interesting enough that I'd like to try it sometime.

This makes me happy.

I think, if I can get my hands on this once it becomes available for general consumption, that I will be making a sorcerer who rains destruction down from the back of his Tyrant Lizard Familiar.

Are there any Evocations that play well with Sorcery in the book, or at least a mention of such things?

[Sith_Happens]

There are plenty of cool and interesting-looking Charms, but they're mixed in with speedbumps, extremely situational Charms, and long convoluted chains of prerequisites. (Some Abilities fare better than others - Investigate and Larceny look neat, so far, while Socialize is a mess.) It's perplexing, because I feel like the 3e writing team has moved past this sort of mistake already.

[VOICE="Dan Green"]So it's just like Duel Monsters D&D.[/VOICE]

[Sorcery summary]

I haven't played a combat sorcerer, so I couldn't say how well this works out in practice, but it looks interesting enough that I'd like to try it sometime.

Considering the point of the new combat system is that weapon-users will also be spending their first few turns "setting up" the attack that actually hurts you, this sounds like it work fine at least in theory.

[TimeWizard]

Unless I missed one, Sorceries all do Decisive damage. Obsidian Butterflies is back, as is Magma Kraken. Invulnerable skin of Bronze is a sorcery now.

As for speed/sorcery motes, the fluff is that you aren't channeling your essence like you would with a charm, your forcing the Essence of the land around you to conform to your terrible will. It temporarily costs willpower too, but you get that WP back on a success. One cool thing I noticed is that Obsidian Butterflies doesn't reset the Initiative count, so it doesn't "spend" the withering damage your allies built up. I didn't see Flying Guillotine, (might have just missed it) but there's a spell called Brilliant Raptor which does the single target long range damage thing.

So yeah, Sorcery is still the same idea as E2: significant casting time, significant results.

Bunch of utility spells too. You can get the flying nimbus cloud from DBZ, or travel in a mini tornado (faster but landlocked).

Sorcerous Workings are new concept. These are BIG, LONG TERM kinds of spells. Turning a wasteland in to fertile soil, ward a valley so no storms ever trouble it, Abjuring a city's walls so incorporal creatures can't pass through, Sundering the divide between creation and Hell, etc...

Counterspelling is possible still, but after a spell is cast you can try to distort it, usually making buffs into debuffs or attacks veer of course.

I was lead to believe that Evocations were a new type of pseudo-charms like blade magic. The examples given are things like "learn your opponents intimacies by crossing blades with her", "Propel yourself though the air by shooting this bow", "Cover your opponent in ice" (which gives them a small penalty to movement), and "ignore all wound penalties on your next attack". So they are more like passive bonuses and unlockable enchantments than anything else- not that I have a problem with them.

Oh: Essence, Abilities, and Skills are capped at 5. Essence 6 is considered a hypothetical option for the ST, in much the same way that Epic levels in D&D aren't necessarily part of the core experience. They might make something like the Epic Level Handbook in the future.

Edit:

Considering the point of the new combat system is that weapon-users will also be spending their first few turns "setting up" the attack that actually hurts you, this sounds like it work fine at least in theory.

I skimmed that bit, but I wonder if it's feasible to try blitzing with a weak decisive attack or two just to put your target into a dice roll penalty early fight.

Anyway, I also realized what kind of character I want to play now: Heavy Armor wearing, Heavy Weapon wielding, Sorcerer Tyrant. Screw subtlety, Power Is Power.

Oh, all weapons melee weapons are now Light, Medium, or Heavy, which determines their combat stats. A specific type of weapon has a few special properties. Medium Axes can be thrown, medium swords can do extra damage (but leave you vulnerable for over-committing), etc. Medium mundane weapons have the highest total point spread, but Heavy Artifacts have a higher total than other artifact weapons.

Martial arts are cool. They work like feat trees and can't be combo'd with Brawl or Melee because they are esoteric spiritual practices, not just good swordsmanship. Each has one or two weapons that it works with, and Armor restrictions. I think only one works in heavy armor- a two handed style meant to ravage Battle groups.

Oh (man I cant quit) Mass Combat became Battle Groups, which are infinitely better and easier.

[Serafina]

Limit Break is correct.

and, to repeat myself "can i play a combat sorcerer"

Yes. Yes you can.

First of all, Spells no longer take up any of your own motes, nor do they cost you any willpower (well, you spend one, then you get one back). Instead you gather the motes, and when you have enough you launch an attack.

Now, let's make a basic "Combat Sorcerer".
You take the Sorcerous Initiation "Pact with an Ifrit Lord", then you take the Shaping Ritual that allows you to draw fire from your passionate Intimacies. Then you take the two-dot Merit "The Burning Name".

Now, that Merit (which is exclusive to sorcerers) already allows you to summon flames at will. And you can use those to attack, using (Intelligence + Occult). So now you won't have to invest into Archery, Brawl, Martial Arts, Melee or Thrown to attack people normally already, on account of being a sorcerer.

But you wanted spells. Okay then, there are two Terrestrial Circle combat spells:

Death of Obsidian Butterflies attacks with (Perception + Occult), +Essence if it is your Control Spell (you only get one per circle, so choose wisely) and it hits everything in a very large area (up to medium range). It does (Essence + attack successes) damage, which is at first rather pitiful - buut unlike (almost) all other attacks that actually damage health levels, it will NOT reset you to base initiative. It also leaves behind hazardous terrain, and it is vastly more dangerous against battle groups (who take -2 to defense and you add your occult to damage).

Flight of the Brilliant Raptor also attacks with (Perception + Occult) and up to long range. It deals (your current Initiative + current temporary Willpower) damage, so easily 20 or so. However, it will resest you to your base initiative like all other decisive attacks. It only attacks a single target, but if it deals 3+ damage it leaves behind a bonfire (which is by itself pretty damaging). All it gets from being a control spell (barring shaping rituals that are stronger for control spells) is extra range.

Now, there's nothing keeping you from picking both spells - if you want to focus on that, I'd actually recommend it. They work differently and fill different roles. But you can only pick one control spell - Death of Obsidian Butterflies is simply the better option, since it gets more direct benefits. If you pick that, it also has the side-effect that shadowy butterflies emerge from your shadow when your emotions run hot, and when you're angry your fingernails turn into sharp volcanic glass.


So, both of those spells need 15 sorcerous motes.
You gather sorcerous motes by taking a shaping actions as your combat action, and rolling (Intelligence + Occult). We can safely assume that that will be 10 dice, 11 with a specialization, so you should get 5 motes per action.
But that'd take three rounds to launch! Well, yes it would - except for Excellencies and Shaping Rituals.
So now let's look at your Shaping Ritual. Whenever you would gain willpower from upholding a passionate intimacy, you can instead gain 5 sorcerous motes that last until you use them or the next sunrise. So if you do that, your first spell in combat will come out in two turns.
Now, let's throw in some charms. Ancient Tongue Understanding will grant you a bonus success (with higher Essence up to three) on all shaping actions. Supernal Control Method grants you a free occult Excellency once per scene. If you take Spirit-Drawing Occulus (which requires Supernal Occult to start out with, and has four prerequisite charms), you can reflexively roll (Occult + Perception) with a full excellency to gather motes that you can then use for shaping actions as well, but only once per day.

So, what does that leave us with?
If you are well-prepared, you can launch a spell in one round. Rolling 20 dice should net you on average 10 motes, free bonus successes help make that more reliable. The additional 5 motes needed come from your shaping ritual or from Spirit-Drawing Occulus - or if it's bad, from taking another shaping action.


All that does IMO result in a combat-viable sorcerer right out of the box. At higher Essence it becomes much more dangerous too - Death of Obsidian Butterflies starts dealing notable damage (3+ at Essence 3, up to 6+ if you ever reach Essence that high) but also adds a lot to it's attack roll. Add in more free successes from Ancient Tongue Understanding and you're good - and that's before the fact that you will get additional shaping rituals and higher-circle spells.
Because those shaping rituals are game-changers. At Essence 3 you can take Celestial Circle Sorcery, and could take the shaping ritual that allows you to draw power from flames, which is (Essence) motes, so at this time 3 less motes needed for each spell as long as you have flame to draw upon (which you of course should).



Edit: And I forgot about Suzerain of the Endless Flame, another 2-dot merit. It reduces the cost of any flame-based spell by 3 Sorcerous Motes, so launching in one round becomes much easier for those.

[Kobold-Bard]

Unless I missed one, Sorceries all do Decisive damage. Obsidian Butterflies is back, as is Magma Kraken. Invulnerable skin of Bronze is a sorcery now.

...

For Withering there's Mists of Eventide, which is a poison effect that drains Initiative.

[TimeWizard]

Great post Serafina. One minor detail: you only gain willpower back from sorcery if you successfully cast it. If it fails for some reason (i.e. counterspell) you don't get that Willpower back.

[Milo v3]

Does crafting have that weird xp thing where you must make a hundred arrows before you can be inspired enough to make a sword?

[Morty]

I thought fifteen Charms was a lot. Turns out it isn't.

[Kobold-Bard]

A far more problematic situation has been brought up by our eagle-eyed posters, in that the full page piece of Chejop contains imagery derived from other people's art. The artist is redoing that piece as well as others where he did not spend enough time on moving past his reference material, like the "cakes" sequel piece, and we will replace them and be done with that particular artist. (If I sound like I am downplaying what a breach of trust and professionalism this is, that's just my "let's solve the problem" voice. I'm absolutely livid with rage about this and both Maria and the artist have had earfulls making that point.)

Terrible 3D cake thief pic and stolen copyrighted Chejop Kejak art are being replaced.

[Chambers]

Wow, that's a pretty huge blunder.

[Sith_Happens]

Today on 60 Minutes in Creation: How NOT to use Supernal Larceny.

[Rater202]

So, I'm in a convo talking about the future of Lunars over on Onyx Path.

It got me thinking: Are there any particularly cool/dangerous/useful critters in the back of the book?

Particularly things with hearts and blood?

[The_Snark]

It got me thinking: Are there any particularly cool/dangerous/useful critters in the back of the book?

Particularly things with hearts and blood?

If you like prehistoric megafauna, then yes.

[SaurOps]

So, I'm in a convo talking about the future of Lunars over on Onyx Path.

It got me thinking: Are there any particularly cool/dangerous/useful critters in the back of the book?

Particularly things with hearts and blood?

Given the way combat works and the fact that every animal has a way to build up Initiative, in addition to mechanically-significant special abilities, that would be all of them. You can even layer on special abilities, like cats being able to kill you by darting under your feet, or eagles being able to grab daiklaves in their talons and then drop them from altitude on an enemy for some pretty heavy damage. In the case of Lunars, a lot of those capabilities can take on frightening new dimensions, like being able to use Evocations as an eagle or gorilla. Wolf-totem Lunars will also have superb Defend Other capabilities if they take the time to cultivate all the latent and magical abilities of their form.

[Rater202]

That's of course assuming that the "Select Options off of a menu, then pick an animal that fits the selected tags" gives your totem form the stats of the animal it's based on.

Of course if not, thay could just find, hunt, kill, and devour the heart of a wolf.

...I've kind of got an "OMG SO KEWL" reaction to shape-shifters that can turn into T-Rexes. What are the Tyrant Lizard's like?

[Serafina]

It should be taken with a metric ton of salt - the "Quick Characters" in the book explicitly use different rules than properly built Exalts will - but a shape-shifted Lunar gets this:
- all the physical dice pools of the animal, including for attacks
- all the animals special attacks, such as a cats ambush hunter or leaping pounce abilities or a a Hellboars bone-crunching bite.
-all the animals merits, such as night vision or keen nose, but also a Siege Lizards Impenetrable Armor or a Great Cats Camouflage ability.

The only exception are latent and magical abilities, and you can not shift into creatures with Legendary Size - but all of those can explicitly be unlocked by Charms.

Now again, take it with a lot of grains of salt since these are quick characters and do not use the actual rules for Lunars. This includes obvious stuff such as "you'll only gain an animals strength/dexterity/stamina, not it's abilities" (which is good since yours will likely be higher), but could also include a lot more restrictions that the quick characters simply don't have for sake of simplicity, or a completely different ruling on shapeshifting.

[TheCountAlucard]

Damn, they cut out the really great story about blood ape babysitters.

If you care to dig it up, it's on Nishkriya from one of the times they were talking about demon summoning. No copyright issues sharing a forum discussion.

[tonberrian]

Gah, I want Exigents to come out so I can build an Exigent Bride of Ahlat.

[This be Richard]

Gah, I want Exigents to come out so I can build an Exigent Bride of Ahlat.

I like it. Any ideas in mind for what would have caused Ahlat so much panic that he'd give up a major share of his own power to get an exalt?

[tonberrian]

I like it. Any ideas in mind for what would have caused Ahlat so much panic that he'd give up a major share of his own power to get an exalt?

Nooooot a clue. Something something WAR, probably. I'd flesh it out more when the book comes out.

Right now I'm thinking about demon-familiar sorcerers, because survival charms are cool.

[Sith_Happens]

So I know it hasn't been long yet, but is there a Standard Not-Instadie-to-the-First-Combat Charm package that anyone's figured out yet? I'm building a social-focused Eclipse and wondering if two Ox-Bodies, Demure Carp Feint, and Pearlescent Filigree Defense is enough.

[HalfTangible]

I like it. Any ideas in mind for what would have caused Ahlat so much panic that he'd give up a major share of his own power to get an exalt?

Nooooot a clue. Something something WAR, probably. I'd flesh it out more when the book comes out.

Right now I'm thinking about demon-familiar sorcerers, because survival charms are cool.

I actually had a game planned where one of the plot points was Ahlat came under assault for his job from other gods of war. Originally I was just gonna have the gods be power-hungry, but you could also argue that Ahlat suspected they were Underworld/Yozi backed, or were trying to bring about peace in the south. There's a lot of ways to do it.

[Lanaya]

Instadying to the first combat charm isn't really a thing, especially thanks to the crippling injury rules. But an Ox-Body or two and a penalty negator seems like the cheapest and most efficient way to not die in combat.

[Rater202]

Gah, I want Exigents to come out so I can build an Exigent Bride of Ahlat.

I still want to know what the hell the so called "dirty Bomb" exigents are.

I mean, we know that they're black market exigents that came from exaltations that have been tampered with ad altered by multible spirits, but we've been told that they're "Abberations of great power" and that's by the standards of the Exalted.

I want to know what "Abeerations of great power" means in the context of the exalted.

[This be Richard]

So I know it hasn't been long yet, but is there a Standard Not-Instadie-to-the-First-Combat Charm package that anyone's figured out yet? I'm building a social-focused Eclipse and wondering if two Ox-Bodies, Demure Carp Feint, and Pearlescent Filigree Defense is enough.

Instadying to the first combat charm isn't really a thing, especially thanks to the crippling injury rules. But an Ox-Body or two and a penalty negator seems like the cheapest and most efficient way to not die in combat.

Agreed that a penalty negator is probably a good call. You might want to invest a couple of charms in Dodge to get Shadow Over Water. That along with an Ox-Body or two and/or your Dreaming Pearl charms would go a long way to keeping you safe. All told, if you're playing a character for whom combat isn't a big concern, you can probably get by early on with just Shadow Over Water and one or two other charms.

With that said, I can already see some directions you might want to build in. Glancing at the early Dodge charms to answer this question, it looks like Demure Carp Feint has some very nice synergy with Searing Quicksilver Flight.

For a non-combat character, I'd recommend putting your starting few combat charms in Dodge and Ox-Body, then using Solar XP to pick up Dreaming Pearl during play. Unless, of course, either Dreaming Pearl is concept-relevant and/or you have other priorities for your Solar XP.

[Sith_Happens]

Instadying to the first combat charm isn't really a thing, especially thanks to the crippling injury rules. But an Ox-Body or two and a penalty negator seems like the cheapest and most efficient way to not die in combat.

Okay, looks like I typed that in a way easy to mis-parse. "Charm" was supposed to be read as part of the same phrase with "package," as in "Charm package that will prevent dying horribly in the first combat."

Your and everyone else's advice is still along the lines of what I was looking for, though.

Unless, of course, either Dreaming Pearl is concept-relevant

This, in that the character is an actual courtesan by trade. I might still consider swapping the Charms out though once I've actually read through the Dodge tree.

[Tyrrell]

...I've kind of got an "OMG SO KEWL" reaction to shape-shifters that can turn into T-Rexes. What are the Tyrant Lizard's like?

I did a fight with one against a dawn caste melee specialist and the Tyrant lizard was awesome. She let out a mighty roar that drained the Dawn's initiative and willpower. She was able to smack the dawn prone with an attack then followup with an auto grapple by stepping on him, and then the grapple was followed by another automatic attack as she smashed him against the ground. She didn't loose defense when she was injured. Her teeth made the reinforced buff jacket more or less irrelevant when she used her bite atack. Her die pools were adequate to hit against melee 5, dex 5 + specialty + weapon defense a fair amount of the time (and since infinite ability mastery is not a thing that is or will exist in 3rd ed. that's a fairly good defense).

I ran the fight for twelve rounds or so and while the smart money was on the exalt to win it was far from a sure thing. The exalt was running low on willpower and he was reduced to trying to conserve enough motes to allow a big attack while simultaneously trying to whither attack his way out of initiative crash so he could use heavenly guardian defense (initiative crash means that the t-rex temporarily had the upper hand and was controlling the fight).