Personal Woes and Advice 4

[WarKitty]

Can I be sincere? Just don't.

What do you expect her to do? "Oh I'm sorry dear. That was really bad of me; here have a cup of tea? "

That's not how it works. People don't just admit they were wrong, acted wrongly or were mean to someone.

You have a higher chance of turning lead intro gold then her admitting she was mean to you.

Just suck it up, men up and face it she will never apologize. Try to remember all the good things she did to you in the past and forgive her for the mistakes of the present.
If you won’t be the superior person in this relationship she most certainly won’t be.

I'm not a saint. I can't be attacked and badgered day in and day out and keep a perfectly even tone of voice, never cry, never show any anxiety or stress, never tense up my shoulders or body, never do anything to show that I'm upset by her behavior. That's just not something that I can manage.

If that makes me a ****ty adult, so be it.

[FinnLassie]

She is your MOM, and you are not her mom. So there are things she can say to you that you can't say to hear.

That's just how things are. As her mom she holds more authority than you. She is also older and more experienced so, although it seems unfair, she is allowed to do and say some things and you aren't.

I have to be brutally honest – this is horrible, horrible advice.

Even though it's WarKitty's mother, they're both adults. And an adult woman should not be treating her daughter this way. Heck, even if she was underaged there is absolutely no right to be emotionally abusive towards one's child.

She does not hold more authority than WarKitty. Even if she's more experienced, she seems like she's not enough experienced in the matter of social interaction. It is very berating to excuse lashing out on someone else just on the basis that they are someone's parent. I've had my ****fits with my own mother but as time has moved on we have both started to pick up the things that make us get irritated about each other, making us both want to fix things. This behaviour is something that I've not heard Kitty's mother take action on; she just rolls in the same old emotionally abusive ways.


No one's a saint, but in this situation Kitty is getting way more than she very likely deserves.

[HalfTangible]

Can I be sincere? Just don't.

What do you expect her to do? "Oh I'm sorry dear. That was really bad of me; here have a cup of tea? "

That's not how it works. People don't just admit they were wrong, acted wrongly or were mean to someone.

You have a higher chance of turning lead intro gold then her admitting she was mean to you.

Just suck it up, men up and face it she will never apologize. Try to remember all the good things she did to you in the past and forgive her for the mistakes of the present.
If you won’t be the superior person in this relationship she most certainly won’t be.

'Forgive and forget', 'turn the other cheek', etc would be good advice if Kitty was out of the situation. She's not.

Warkitty, I recommend next time your mother tries this kind of bull****tery, you tell her off for it. Do not give her another inch. She's your mother, not your jailer nor your drill sergeant. She does not get to treat you like ****.

There is no point trying to reason with someone who does not want to be reasoned with. So don't.

[WarKitty]

Warkitty, I recommend next time your mother tries this kind of bull****tery, you tell her off for it. Do not give her another inch. She's your mother, not your jailer nor your drill sergeant. She does not get to treat you like ****.

There is no point trying to reason with someone who does not want to be reasoned with. So don't.

No offense, but I think that's exactly the kind of thing I should wait until I'm out of the house to say. Just because I know exactly how it would go, and how it would go would be me paying to sleep at a hotel.

[Kalmageddon]

No offense, but I think that's exactly the kind of thing I should wait until I'm out of the house to say. Just because I know exactly how it would go, and how it would go would be me paying to sleep at a hotel.

So you have given her no reason to act the way she does? Does she have any reasons of her own then? Or is it just gratuitous abuse, from your point of view?
Anyway, moving out sounds like a good idea. What's the holdup at the moment?

[HalfTangible]

No offense, but I think that's exactly the kind of thing I should wait until I'm out of the house to say. Just because I know exactly how it would go, and how it would go would be me paying to sleep at a hotel.

*eyebrow*

Can you leave any time soon?

Because I would suggest you do that.

[WarKitty]

So you have given her no reason to act the way she does? Does she have any reasons of her own then? Or is it just gratuitous abuse, from your point of view?
Anyway, moving out sounds like a good idea. What's the holdup at the moment?

Honest and trying to be calmer opinion? We're feeding off each other. She says or does something that I find rude/disrespectful, I react, she gets mad because I react, I get mad because she's mad at me, and the whole thing goes to the lower planes. Or I say something she finds rude or disrespectful, she gets mad at me for saying it, I get mad because I don't feel like it was fair - and again it all goes to the lower planes.

What frustrates me about this situation is that I feel like what needs to happen is to have a good sit-down chat about how to handle situations where one person feels the other isn't treating them right without it getting into a mess of everyone getting angry. But I'm feeling like we can't have that discussion, because it ends up being all about her and how awful I am to her, but it's rude of me to bring up anything about how I feel like I'm getting hurt too.

[Glass Mouse]

What do you expect her to do? "Oh I'm sorry dear. That was really bad of me; here have a cup of tea? "

Well, that's pretty much exactly how my mother has reacted on the few occasions when I've had cause to say it to her. So yeah, that does not seem like an unreasonable expectation at all, and Warkitty, I'm sorry your mother cannot or will not give you that very basic level of respect and comfort.

Also, S@tanicoaldo, my heart breaks for you, and I hope you manage to surround yourself with better people eventually.

That is not cool.

Like, seriously, those are borderline abusive communication patterns.

I agree very much with you. Warkitty, I am sure your mother is trying her best with the emotional tools she has at her disposal. Parents who act like this usually grew up in manipulative and abusive households where they never learned what it looks like to give another person space or to respect their emotions, because no one afforded them that care.
That still does not make it okay. Maybe I'm being uncharitable here, having been raised by parents who did the tremendously hard work of mostly overcoming their own baggage, but I'm of the opinion that if you want to bring tiny dependent humans into the world, you absolutely owe it to them to put in that work.

Warkitty, it sounds to me like you're not so much asking for validation that your mother is acting out of line (though she very obviously is), as much as strategies for handling the relationship until you can move out. Since your mom cannot be reasoned with and you're scared of directly telling her off (which, holy cow, I would be too), I think your best bet is deflecting and avoiding. Which means:

When she comes to you with a problem she is having, respond "That sounds frustrating", "I'm sorry you're dealing with that", "It sounds like that made you really angry", "Wow", etc. Practice your sympathetic, but non-commital answers. Validate her emotions without asking questions or analysing anything. The basic message is "I hear you're feeling X, and I sympathize". These might not bring down the amount of complaining but will bring down the amount of emotional labour you pour into your mom. Sympathetic noises are much easier than trying to fix things for the other person.

Stop telling her about any and all non-mom problems, effective immediately. If you have a mom problem, focus on the behaviour you want to change. Not "It hurts me when you say X", but "Mom, when you want me to do Y, can you please do Z?" or "Mom, next time can you do X instead of Y?" or even "I really like when you do X, and I would like if you kept doing that". That might cut down on her current gut reaction of feeling attacked and disrespected. Might.

Consider the strategy I once read in a psychology book, of just parroting the last word back at her when she is complaining. I swear, it feels really rude but people do NOT notice, and very often they find it extremely helpful since all they really needed was to talk themselves into a solution.
Mom: You will not believe what X said yesterday!
You: Yesterday?
Mom: Yeah, she told me that Y and Z!
You: Z?
and so forth. This, again, brings down your emotional labour and has the bonus of being a really good problem-solving strategy for psychology laypeople.

And definitely pour all your energy into getting away. You will not find peace until you are away from this household. For now, your goal is not to fix things but to minimize its impact. Once you have real leverage - once you can walk away or put down the phone when your mom behaves unreasonably - you can start trying to fix things. But right now you "just" need to expend minimum energy dealing with her.

Good luck. And hugs to you.

[Kalmageddon]

@Warkitty, that sounds reasonable, I wonder why you can't make it work.
I was in a similar situation to yours a while back, but the problem we had were due to outside influences making us easy to anger and to misread each other's intentions. In my case, moving out proved to be a blessing and now I have a good relationship with my mother.
Still what I'm saying is that it would be good to underhand what's making you and your mother so receptive to arguments and fights, what is wrong with each other' s lives at the moment, basically.
Maybe your can help each other fix that.

[lio45]

Anyway, moving out sounds like a good idea. What's the holdup at the moment?

Seconded. I've read (most?) of the "WarKitty's Mom" posts over the past... year, maybe? or more? and I definitely agree with that - whatever the tradeoff (work more hours to make up for rent, have to endure a really small or really low-quality apartment or studio, have to endure many roommates), it'll be worth it.

[HalfTangible]

I didn't suggest moving out because I remember her refusing to do so because of extenuating circumstances a while back? Is that still the case or am I mis remembering it?

[WarKitty]

Seconded. I've read (most?) of the "WarKitty's Mom" posts over the past... year, maybe? or more? and I definitely agree with that - whatever the tradeoff (work more hours to make up for rent, have to endure a really small or really low-quality apartment or studio, have to endure many roommates), it'll be worth it.

I think the problem is it might be less "having to endure many roommates or a low-quality apartment" and more "not being able to afford the costs to get to and from my job."

[dehro]

Warkitty:
My dad's wife and I have a complicated relationship. I live nearby their place and my main office (as in, desk, tower-computer and landline access) are still in the attic at their place, even though I'm equipped to work from my place. I routinely go to that office also because my dad is retired and has parkinsons so he mostly stays at home.
occasionally, I will stay a bit late in the office, 2 floors up from the ground floor.
My dad's wife will then come home from work and be entirely surprised/startled when I then head down the stairs because of not knowing I'm in the house (my dad will forget and/or tell her I'm not around).
Her reactions often boil down to the same 2 phrases. It's become a bit of an issue/running joke.
Last time this happened, before heading down I wrote one of those phrases on a large piece of paper, so when she said it to me, I held it up in front of her. we both had a bit of a laugh (at her expenses, I admit).
Would doing the same but writing something in the way of "you just said the very same thing to me 30 seconds ago, what makes it ok for you but terrible when I do it?" and deploy the note when appropriate, be a viable strategy to at least make your mother aware of the double standards she's employing towards you?
What I told you about my way to defuse an issue with a relative you HAVE to interact with regularly, is but one example... surely there must be ways to defuse/avert/resolve specific issues.
Until you find a way to get out from that living situation that is clearly poisonous for you, try to find these small ways to stop triggers, "situations" and negative forms of comunication from either happening or coping mechanisms to stop them from having a big impact on your own peace of mind.

On a separate note, I'd like to share about my family, who seem to go through something similar to yours, and maybe give you a different perspective or just food for thought.
My mother, who lives several hunderd km away from me, exhibits a somewhat similar pattern of behaviour to yours, towards her youngest son (26yo) who still lives with her.
He's got a crap character, and in many ways, so does she.
Throw in fundamental disagreements about how things should be/are proper, what matters, what is ok when you live together and one person pays most of the bills, a mixed bag of resentment/shame/regret/trauma on both sides, and most interactions between the pair of them get very complicated very fast, and turn heated even faster... so I understand frustration and not knowing how to get out of the situations.
Overt time I have learned to stay away, when I can, from their arguments, because living far away and not having daily contacts, I can't really take sides or pick fights worth fighting without causing more harm than good.
My mother has all the markings of a big time drama queen even when she's not actually causing or feeling drama.
You tell her something, anything, no matter how big or small, and her body language, facial expression and vocal reactions can very quickly become an over the top expression of...something between hurt/drammatic surprise/astonishment/offense/terror/fury... and sometimes it's really hard to tell which is which.
She also has, occasionally, a bad case of "life is about me and if you do something or say something, my first instinct is going to be to make this about how it impacts me and how you're inconsiderate in dropping this on me".
The best reaction I can come up with is to let her process whatever it is I tell her in the first place, and wait for her reaction to both clarify itself and return to manageable levels of "what you told me upsets me in one or the other direction" (upsetting her is very easy, since her emotional balance and peace of mind are easily keeled over). I can do that because I'm patient and more often than not, well out of earshot.
My brother (the one who lives with her), has his own set of issues; financial ones keeping him chained to my mother, emotional ones depending on an absent and somewhat emotionally abusive father (not my father, I'd like to add) and a complicated relationship with our/his other siblings. Plus he's a know-it-all and a bit of an inconsiderate ****, when he's in a bad mood, which happens regularly both because he lives with our mom and because stuff happens.
Out of all of us, he's the one who has to live with our mother's complicated comunication patterns the most, and it's gotten to a point where the first reaction for both of them is to rise the stakes, the tones and the reaction/irritation level as soon as something is out of tune with what they want/need/think.
There are sides to this that my mother can't tell my brother, the big one being that when he gets loud, verbal and angry (never violent, but he is a good head taller than our mother), he scares her and/because reminds her off his father, the aforementioned bag of *****. There are sides to it that frustrate my brother immensely, but practical reality doesn't allow him to just move out and be done with it. I myself am not really in the position to help either of them out and, to be completely honest, can't possibly tell either of them "well, come stay with me for a while". So I'm helpless in helping them, if that makes sense, other than occasionally talk to either side separately.
so.. yah, your posts resonate with me, and I wish I had more helpful things to say. I hope that other people's anecdotes can give you either food for thought or a sense of solidarity over shared experiences.

[lio45]

I think the problem is it might be less "having to endure many roommates or a low-quality apartment" and more "not being able to afford the costs to get to and from my job."

So your mom's house is both 1) very close to your job and 2) in a neighborhood that's expensive enough to be pretty much owners-occupiers only...?

How about you tell her that you're really considering moving out, BUT that you'd like the following compromise: you start paying token-ish rent to her, in exchange for being treated a bit more like a paying adult tenant and a bit less like her child. In other words, you two would have a lot less interactions... Given that the alternative - you moving out - means even LESS interaction, I imagine your mom would agree to settle for the most interactions she can hope for.

As a paying tenant, you'd start to have the right to ignore her, whenever what she's saying isn't relevant from a landlording point of view.

[WarKitty]

So your mom's house is both 1) very close to your job and 2) in a neighborhood that's expensive enough to be pretty much owners-occupiers only...?

It's less the house and more the car. Right now I'm using their car to get to and from work. I don't think I could swing a car loan and a rent payment in this area, and there aren't shifts available that work with public transit. So I'm trying to save up to buy a car outright that won't break down on me too fast.

[Velaryon]

Yeah that's pretty sketchy then. I guess unless there's some weird rule that they need to post for internal applicants before looking outside which thus causes them to make weird requirements up. Alternatively they found someone they wanted for the job, saw the 3 years book discussion on their CV and then just adjusted it so that person could get the job without it being as overt as just choosing one internal applicant over another and causing people to get upset. That's likely a poor way to go about things, but I could see someone doing it.

It's entirely possible that they had a specific person in mind before ever posting the job description. Libraries are a fairly insular community in that many people already know their colleagues in a lot of other area libraries thanks to things like library school connections, frequent collaborations and conferences, etc. It's not quite "everybody knows everybody" like a really small town, but it's kinda similar. I've recently discovered that at least one of the librarians here was friends with our new hire for years before she came here. It's quite possible that they knew they wanted her for the job, though I don't know that for a fact.


@WarKitty, it sounds like you might have to just grin and bear it, then at the earliest opportunity (meaning when you can buy a car and afford a bit of rent) GTFO and find your own place. As far as ways to deal with the situation until you escape it, I'd like to second Glass Mouse's suggestions. You have my sympathy, as I also have the experience of dealing with family too often when you want your own space away from them but cannot have it. Our situations are different, but comparable enough that I can imagine what a pain it must be. You have my sympathy and my hopes that you can find a way out soon. :)

[2D8HP]

...@WarKitty, it sounds like you might have to just grin and bear it, then at the earliest opportunity (meaning when you can buy a car and afford a bit of rent) GTFO and find your own place...

It really does seem like WarKitty is doing the best that can be done with the situation that she describes.

Good practice for the work world at least.

You have my sympathy and my hopes that you can find a way out soon. :)

Likewise.

[Jon_Dahl]

Anyway, about this whole "bad mom" ordeal, which is very tragic, I just want to give this incredibly useful piece of advice from Dr Peterson, whom I greatly admire btw:

https://youtu.be/kXi9bwI6cY8

Your mom is dead. No buts, no ifs, no maybes. She is dead. Once you understand that, you will be feel a lot better.

[Elderand]

For many many reasons....i'm thinking of killing myself.

I don't really expect sympathy or help from anyone, I don't even know why I posted this. I'm sorry.

[Jon_Dahl]

For many many reasons....i'm thinking of killing myself.

I don't really expect sympathy or help from anyone, I don't even know why I posted this. I'm sorry.

Thinking about killing yourself is not bad, since you can reflect on your life, future and neither having life nor future. Actually seriously considering going beyond that consideration or letting these thoughts dominate your life is another issue.

Here is another very helpful video from Dr Peterson about the subject:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuQgJxYriYI

In short: just use antidepressant for a month. A month. That is like four weeks, it's nothing. You'll know if they work! Other than that, you must address the specific issues that cause you to become depressed, but there might not be any such issues. I don't know. Other than that, I suggest that you try to constrain the negative events in your life to the minimal necessary domain. Think of it like a tree. Very, very, very few things come close the trunk of your tree, that being your life. Mostly events in your life belong to small categories that might be linked to other categories, but that doesn't matter! You stay with those events within their respective categories. More about the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7E_4c_s9y8

[OACSNY97]

Hi WarKitty,

I've been following your posts and I'm sorry you're stuck in such a rotten situation.
Regarding the car situation-
1. Can you get an apartment/live with a friend or relative close enough to work that you can either walk or ride a bike? I think this should give you a 4 to 5 mile radius around your job to look for housing.
2. I've had tolerable luck outright buying cars in the $2000-5000 range in private sales when a family is getting rid of an older person's car/cleaning out the estate. (I'm on my second in ~10 years, though I do put up with a number of small problems that don't effect safety in order to save money.)
3. You might see if there's either a vocational school in your area that fixes cars and sells them or a car charity that does the same- you might get something decent for reasonable money if your only requirements are safe and reliable.

Good luck.

It's less the house and more the car. Right now I'm using their car to get to and from work. I don't think I could swing a car loan and a rent payment in this area, and there aren't shifts available that work with public transit. So I'm trying to save up to buy a car outright that won't break down on me too fast.

[lio45]

It's less the house and more the car. Right now I'm using their car to get to and from work. I don't think I could swing a car loan and a rent payment in this area, and there aren't shifts available that work with public transit. So I'm trying to save up to buy a car outright that won't break down on me too fast.

How about renting within walking/biking distance of your workplace...?

Unless you're a car guy like me (who likes to get deals on them and fix them myself), a car is just a money pit... in many cases, it makes no financial sense.

[WarKitty]

How about renting within walking/biking distance of your workplace...?

Unless you're a car guy like me (who likes to get deals on them and fix them myself), a car is just a money pit... in many cases, it makes no financial sense.

That's just not possible around here - walking/biking distance would put it up to like 2/3 of my income going just to rent.

[kyoryu]

So, I pretty much agree with everybody in this thread.

That said, I would look at what *you're* doing to see what, realistically, you're contributing to the situation. Understanding your own flaws is important too, and being able to admit fault. That doesn't mean you're to blame, here, to be clear - if you're seeing disproportionate responses, that's clearly not right.

Assuming things really are as abusive as they kind of sound (and the whole "one subject at a time, but I'll change the subject if you tell me what's upsetting you"), then, yeah, leaving is the best option. I get that it's difficult, but be sure the difficulties aren't being implanted in you. That's kind of what abusive folks do.

While you're there, if you're really dealing with an abusive person, the best advice I can give you is two-fold:

1) Do what you need to do to keep going. Be nice, avoid the triggers, do all of the coping strategies you need to.

2) REMEMBER THAT THIS ISN'T NORMAL AND WHAT YOU'RE DOING ISN'T NORMAL. This is important to prevent long-term damage to your interaction patterns with other, normal people.

Also, see if you can find a therapist in some way. It will help massively to get some outside perspective on the situation, that's better trained and more knowledgeable than some random yahoo on the intertubes. I'm able to point out some of these things because I've lived it, but anything I say is colored by my own experiences. A professional that has a breadth of experience and knowledge is going to give you far better advice than I.

That's just not possible around here - walking/biking distance would put it up to like 2/3 of my income going just to rent.

So, then maybe you'd need to find another job.

Imagine that you were given a deadline to move out - that you believed 100%. Assume that it's a fairly long deadline - six months or a year or whatever. But at the end of that deadline, living at home would not be an option in any way, shape, or form.

What would you do in that case?

[WarKitty]

So, then maybe you'd need to find another job.

Imagine that you were given a deadline to move out - that you believed 100%. Assume that it's a fairly long deadline - six months or a year or whatever. But at the end of that deadline, living at home would not be an option in any way, shape, or form.

What would you do in that case?

Buy an old clunker and hope that it doesn't break down on me because then I would be completely screwed?

Also, I am NEVER EVER EVER going back to therapy. That's how I got such bad mental health problems in the first place - because I was dumb enough to trust that a therapist had my best interests at heart.

[Chen]

Buy an old clunker and hope that it doesn't break down on me because then I would be completely screwed?

That and I assume public transit is out of the question? What about carpooling?

Also are you paying rent now? If not, then clearly it does make the most sense to be saving for and purchase the car prior to moving out. It probably means suffering through the family in the meantime though.

Also, I am NEVER EVER EVER going back to therapy. That's how I got such bad mental health problems in the first place - because I was dumb enough to trust that a therapist had my best interests at heart.

Though I have no doubt you've had bad experiences with therapy, you realize this is irrational right? It's obvious that not all therapists are bad. This can be seen from people going to therapy and it helping. Realistically there are likely some mental health conditions that you're not going to get over without some sort of professional help. Now, this need not necessarily be one on one therapy with a psychologist/psychiatrist. Group therapy, community support groups or church support groups and the like can all be helpful.

[Comrade]

For many many reasons....i'm thinking of killing myself.

I don't really expect sympathy or help from anyone, I don't even know why I posted this. I'm sorry.

If you're having any thoughts of suicide, even in passing, I strongly urge you to contact a suicide prevention hotline (that particular one is a US-based hotline; others for countries around the world are listed here). Even if you feel there's no point or that it won't help, just do it, call the hotline and seek help.

[kyoryu]

Buy an old clunker and hope that it doesn't break down on me because then I would be completely screwed?

Also, I am NEVER EVER EVER going back to therapy. That's how I got such bad mental health problems in the first place - because I was dumb enough to trust that a therapist had my best interests at heart.

Having someone - don't care who - who is objective but on your side to dig into what's going on, and help shed light on your behavior in the situation will be invaluable.

We know what you tell us, and so it's somewhat difficult to be truly objective.

[WarKitty]

Though I have no doubt you've had bad experiences with therapy, you realize this is irrational right? It's obvious that not all therapists are bad. This can be seen from people going to therapy and it helping. Realistically there are likely some mental health conditions that you're not going to get over without some sort of professional help. Now, this need not necessarily be one on one therapy with a psychologist/psychiatrist. Group therapy, community support groups or church support groups and the like can all be helpful.

It's not that all therapists are necessarily bad, it's that I know there are bad therapists out there and I'm not comfortable taking that risk with the power imbalance in place. I don't feel like I can get to know a therapist well enough to know if they're a safe one or not without taking a risk I find unacceptable.

Honestly, I've had over a dozen therapists and it pretty much universally takes me from relatively stable to nearly suicidal. At best you get the same stupid advice about "I statements" and "boundaries" and other such pretty-sounding nonsense.

[Icewraith]

It's not that all therapists are necessarily bad, it's that I know there are bad therapists out there and I'm not comfortable taking that risk with the power imbalance in place. I don't feel like I can get to know a therapist well enough to know if they're a safe one or not without taking a risk I find unacceptable.

Honestly, I've had over a dozen therapists and it pretty much universally takes me from relatively stable to nearly suicidal. At best you get the same stupid advice about "I statements" and "boundaries" and other such pretty-sounding nonsense.

Hey, don't knock boundaries- they work great in normal situations where both parties have some ability to enforce them.

If you are in such a volatile situation that any attempt to enforce boundaries will result in your ejection from the house, you need to start living independently (which you are working on) ASAP, AND you need to have a plan for survival if something happens and you get kicked out anyways.

Once you get out of there, finding a quality therapist -ideally one who specializes in or has expertise with victims of emotional abuse- would be wise. You've probably got some unhealthy but currently necessary coping mechanisms you could stand to unlearn once they're no longer required for daily interaction, you probably don't want to perpetuate the pattern where the abusee (you) goes on to later inflict more of the same kind of damage to someone else, and I also suspect you don't want to let more abusive types into your life. A good therapist may be able to help you with some or all of that.