The Grandeur of Delusions - A PF Mesmerist Guide

[sixteenbiticon]

Ugh, Moonlight Stalker.. not a great fan of it.

Hmmm, not a fan even with free combat expertise and blur at my disposal? The only downside is the 13 INT, but I actually enjoy the bonus skill points. Using the Half-Giant racial bonuses I can make ability the spread work.

[Slithery D]

The new Magic Tactics Toolbox includes this for melee damage focused Mesmerists:

Manifold stare (combat, stare)
Your hypnotic gaze causes tremendous pain in its victims. Prerequisites: Mesmerist level 3rd, painful stare class feature.
Benefit: You can trigger your painful stare one additional time per round.
Special: This feat can be taken once by a 3rd-level mesmerist, and again when he reaches 9th and 15th levels. Its effects stack. A mesmerist can take this feat in place of a bold stare improvementOA.

With TWF or haste you can eventually apply your painful stare to four attacks per round.

[Florian]

The swapping-clause is the interesting part of it, making it viable with a regular short-range archery build.

[Triskavanski]

I don't know why Ready for Battle is considered to be so low. It doesn't scale sure.. But It can give your entire team (How many tricks you have) all +2 to init.

[Novawurmson]

The new Magic Tactics Toolbox includes this for melee damage focused Mesmerists:

With TWF or haste you can eventually apply your painful stare to four attacks per round.

Oooh, that's very good. I'll have to add that to the guide, thanks!

The swapping-clause is the interesting part of it, making it viable with a regular short-range archery build.

Yeah, not digging into the Mesmerist's already tight skills is a big bonus.

I don't know why Ready for Battle is considered to be so low. It doesn't scale sure.. But It can give your entire team (How many tricks you have) all +2 to init.

Eh, I stand by it. It starts of objectively worse than Improved Initiative, and never gets better than a trait for each target. If it was like... a first level spell, it'd be solid, but there are plenty of other feats I'd rather have.

[jff362]

Thanks for the guide!

I'm curious about the Fey Trickster: fun flavor and it takes the class in a very different direction.

What are your thoughts? Anyone play it yet?

[Kurald Galain]

False Flanker - rogues especially love this trick, as it makes their sneak attack go off. This also means that a rogue dip (with accomplished sneak attacker feat) is a good choice for a melee mesmerist, letting you flank with yourself.

Psychosomatic Surge - a useful trick is to implant this between combats and then immediately activate it (by using a weak attack to deal 1 nonlethal damage to your ally). The temp HP last for one hour, and now you can implant another trick for usage in combat.

I think you're undervaluing Shadow Splinter. Causing enemy damage and infighting as a free action is amazing, and you know you've got good save DCs.

Martial Weapon Proficiency - there's a trait (Heirloom Weapon) that does the same thing.

Medium Armor Prof - if you're going the spellcasting route, you can wear armor without being proficient in it. It will only penalize attacks and physical skill checks, so if you're not planning on using those...

[Slithery D]

Martial Weapon Proficiency - there's a trait (Heirloom Weapon) that does the same thing.

Heirloom Weapon only gives benefits with the specific (and non-masterwork so you can't enchant or otherwise upgrade it) weapon you start the game with, not all weapons of that type, so it's definitely not like the feat.

[stack]

Heirloom Weapon only gives benefits with the specific (and non-masterwork so you can't enchant or otherwise upgrade it) weapon you start the game with, not all weapons of that type, so it's definitely not like the feat.

You can upgrade it. Masterwork transformation spell, pay someone to cast it if you lack a caster.

[Kurald Galain]

Heirloom Weapon only gives benefits with the specific (and non-masterwork so you can't enchant or otherwise upgrade it) weapon you start the game with, not all weapons of that type, so it's definitely not like the feat.

What Stack said - have someone cast MW Transform for you. Many characters do spend their entire career with one weapon, so Heirloom Weapon is at least a viable alternative (and a trait is cheaper than a feat, after all).

[Britsky]

Does anyone have any advice on how to actually play a mesmerist? I'm planning on being one but it will be my first time playing any kind of magical character, so what should i be looking to do in combat? what spells? and any neat stuff to do out of combat?

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Do you have any suggestions on playing a vexing daredevil and dealing with mindless creatures? I've seen many people say that Painful Stare is a mind-effecting ability (which by RAW it is not, and is not by my RAI). If a GM interpreted it in that way, would a vexing daredevil have any recourse, or do they just have to suck it up?

[Kurald Galain]

Do you have any suggestions on playing a vexing daredevil and dealing with mindless creatures? I've seen many people say that Painful Stare is a mind-effecting ability (which by RAW it is not, and is not by my RAI). If a GM interpreted it in that way, would a vexing daredevil have any recourse, or do they just have to suck it up?

By RAW this is mostly correct, as "Creatures that are immune to effects that require a Fort save (such as constructs and undead) are immune to pain effects."

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Where's that, Ultimate Magic? Also, Painful Stare isn't a pain effect; yeah, it should be, but then again, hexes are not curse effects either.

[Kurald Galain]

Painful Stare isn't a pain effect

LOL, don't be silly. This is a roleplaying game, not an exercise in bureaucratese.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

As I said, it isn't. If you have an ability that boosts the DC of a pain effect, it would not apply to painful stare. Just like hexes aren't curse effects, even the ones that are specifically called 'curse of _____'.

[Slithery D]

Do you have any suggestions on playing a vexing daredevil and dealing with mindless creatures? I've seen many people say that Painful Stare is a mind-effecting ability (which by RAW it is not, and is not by my RAI). If a GM interpreted it in that way, would a vexing daredevil have any recourse, or do they just have to suck it up?

It doesn't matter if Painful Stare is a mind-affecting ability or a pain effect.

Painful Stare (Su): When an attack that deals damage hits the target of a mesmerist’s hypnotic stare

Hypnotic Stare itself is a mind-affecting effect. If you can't target it with Hypnotic Stare, you can't affect it with Painful Stare. So things immune to mind-affecting are immune to Painful Stare through immunity to Hypnotic Stare.

I suppose you could find a bad GM who would let you "target" something immune to the ability and tack on the Painful Stare rider, in which case enjoy bashing down doors better than anyone else, too.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

But you can target any creature with hypnotic stare. At 10th level, the vexing daredevil receives Greater Mesmerizing Feint as a bonus feat, explicitly ignoring the prerequisites (which include the psychic inception bold stare, which vexing daredevils cannot get). It says that the subject of your hypnotic stare may be fainted, even though it cannot normally be done. If a mesmerist cannot target an immune creature with their stare, then the bonus feat is useless.

[Kurald Galain]

"X must be true because otherwise ability Y is bad" is a fallacy. Some abilities are just bad.

Slithery is correct, it doesn't work on creatures immune to mind-affecting.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

That fallacy doesn't apply, since it's not that it doesn't work as intended, it's that it doesn't work at all. I wouldn't be arguing this is the the rules didn't support what I am saying.

[Deadkitten]

It doesn't matter if Painful Stare is a mind-affecting ability or a pain effect.

Hypnotic Stare itself is a mind-affecting effect. If you can't target it with Hypnotic Stare, you can't affect it with Painful Stare. So things immune to mind-affecting are immune to Painful Stare through immunity to Hypnotic Stare.

I suppose you could find a bad GM who would let you "target" something immune to the ability and tack on the Painful Stare rider, in which case enjoy bashing down doors better than anyone else, too.

What I am about to say is a strict interpretation of RAW and kinda spits in RAI's face, but nothing in the text from immunity to mind affecting prevents you from targeting them with an effect that is mind affecting. And all painful stare requires is that you are targeting them with your hypnotic stare ability.

So while its silly, it should still work unless im missing some part of the rules that say you cannot be the target of something you are immune to.

Its like creatures immune to extra damage from critical hits, you still TECNICALLY crit, they are just immune to the extra damage.

[Slithery D]

What I am about to say is a strict interpretation of RAW and kinda spits in RAI's face, but nothing in the text from immunity to mind affecting prevents you from targeting them with an effect that is mind affecting. And all painful stare requires is that you are targeting them with your hypnotic stare ability.

So while its silly, it should still work unless im missing some part of the rules that say you cannot be the target of something you are immune to.

Its like creatures immune to extra damage from critical hits, you still TECNICALLY crit, they are just immune to the extra damage.

Reviewing Hypnotic Stare and Painful Stare critically, I agree with you, RAW this works, the only thing you have to do is (1) "target" (but not necessarily affect) a creature with Hypnotic Stare and (2) it has to be vulnerable to precision damage for Painful Stare to apply damage.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

If I were making house rules, in addition to fixing Painful Stare so it is explicitly a mind-affecting and a pain effect, I'd give the vexing daredevil a Psychic Inception-lite ability. Between 3-7 if I was being generous, at level 10 if I was being stingy.

[Slithery D]

Psychic Anthology just came out and has some stare feats (blindness, confusion, remove dex to armor), some new trick feats (enhance flexibility/sharing of tricks in various ways, including a really stupid powerful spell contingency trick effect), and four archetypes (three good, one LOL bad).

[Triskavanski]

Eh, I stand by it. It starts of objectively worse than Improved Initiative, and never gets better than a trait for each target. If it was like... a first level spell, it'd be solid, but there are plenty of other feats I'd rather have.

It would stack with a Trait and Stack with Improved Init and stack with the 1st level spells. If it was a first level spell, it would have a duration of a minute per level (As shown by the spells that do in fact give an init bonus at level 1) . As in you'd need to know when your about to get into the combat to be able to even use it. This is pretty tricky thing to do at level 1 and still often just as tricky in later levels.

And even beyond the duration of the spell, you'd still be taking up one of your first level spell slots known and have to use one of your few spells per day. Which would end up making a solid skip.

As the feat would give your entire party about a 10% chance of going before the enemy. Which means you could all wail on a single target before he gets a chance to go, preventing you from taking damage from things like sneak attack as well as keeping your AC up to full rather than flatfooted ac. As well as being able to score sneak attacks, get your stare in place sooner, etc.

Unlike a Trait or Imp Init as well, if each member of your party has a fairly effective method of controlling the encounter, The more party members you dole out tricks to the higher the overall chances that one of them will be able to go first and throw out their encounter control tactic. With more being able to go first, the more encounter control tactics could be used resulting in a more controlled encounter.

But I guess I could see where if you were using up your tricks faster than a silly rabbit, or horde them to yourself like a dragon, that it could seem more underwhelming.

[thiamael]

Hello,

first of all, great guide. thanks for making me discover this really nice class. I hope you'll add the most recent features soon.

I have a suggestion for the saddist lash. instead of trying to convince your GM to make it a scorpion whip, you can sacrifice two feat slots (harsh, i know) to take weapon focus (whip) and then whip mastery. This feat enable you to do lethal damage with a whip and also to damage foes with armor and natural armor.


hope it has not been already said.