The Grandeur of Delusions - A PF Mesmerist Guide

[Novawurmson]

Link to the Guide

I think like most former 3.5/current 3.P players, When I first saw the Mesmerist in the list of classes for Occult Adventures, I immediately thought “Oh, a Pathfinder Beguiler,” and moved on, completely unimpressed.The beguiler was admitted a functional class, but I never really saw the draw. I expected a simple enchantment/illusion based class that a decent Will save would shut down without mercy.

It’s quite the opposite really - a good Mesmerist can shut down your Will save without mercy.

So let’s start over: The Mesmerist is a unique, highly customizable class that can be built to focus on utility/support, secondary damage, defense, party face-ing, or debuffing, and can usually fulfill several of these roles at a time. It’s not numerically the most powerful class in the game, but it will almost always be able to contribute meaningfully to a party.

Thanks for reading this!

Edit: Changed a bit to not speak for others who enjoyed the beguiler

[Palanan]

Well, I'm probably not a typical 3.P player, but when I saw the playtest for the mesmerist, my first thought was, "Awesome! I have to play this!"

Because I love the beguiler, and played one all too briefly in a 3.P campaign and had nothing but fun with it. Maybe I'm gauche or hopelessly uncool to admit it, but for me the beguiler had flair and then some--and it was that parallel which first caught my interest with the mesmerist.

.

[Vhaidara]

Solid guide. One thing I feel you overlooked though is how easy it is to shut down psychic spellcasting. Yes, you have a great will save. But refresh your memory on the rules of the Intimidate skill.
DC 10+HD+Wis mod = shaken for one round. For every 5 points they beat that by, it's another round.

Shaken locks out emotion components and shuts down towering ego. And there is almost no way to improve that skill DC. Just working off of an average fighter and mesmerist (10 cha and 10 wis respectively), at level 1 it's a +4 check vs DC 11. And that's with minimal investment to the intimidator, while you can't invest anything but wisdom increases.

I seriously think psychic magic deserves an automatic orange rating at best, especially for non-wis based casters.

[Kurald Galain]

Nice title!

...reading now.

[(Un)Inspired]

Solid guide. One thing I feel you overlooked though is how easy it is to shut down psychic spellcasting. Yes, you have a great will save. But refresh your memory on the rules of the Intimidate skill.
DC 10+HD+Wis mod = shaken for one round. For every 5 points they beat that by, it's another round.

Shaken locks out emotion components and shuts down towering ego. And there is almost no way to improve that skill DC. Just working off of an average fighter and mesmerist (10 cha and 10 wis respectively), at level 1 it's a +4 check vs DC 11. And that's with minimal investment to the intimidator, while you can't invest anything but wisdom increases.

I seriously think psychic magic deserves an automatic orange rating at best, especially for non-wis based casters.

You make a good point about how simple the Intimidate DCs are to nail but the Psychic casters are still casters.

With scry and die the only way that a fighter can actually have a turn to attempt to Intimidate a Psychic caster is if the psychic lets them.

Even the Mesmerist, crippled as it is with only sixth level spells, can use Noble Scion/Increased SADness to ensure that the fighter will never win initiative. With such a disable heavy spell list, splooshing the fighter with magic before they can act is fairly simple.

[Ilorin Lorati]

It's just as easy for a psychic caster to mitigate the Emotion Component as it is for an arcane caster to mitigate armor or being grappled. It's something to be prepared for, not cry wolf over.

[Vhaidara]

Those kinds of assumptions are all well and good in theoretical, but practically, it isn't reasonable to just write off a very real threat.

Consider that a level 1 commoner with no ranks can still make the check at a +0. Vs the wis 10 level 1 psychic caster, that's a 50/50 chance that you can literally be turned off for a round by a level 1 commoner yelling at you in a mean voice. And there's a 25% chance it will last 2 rounds (he rolls a 16+).

Bring the unchained skill unlocks into it (which actually make Intimidate optimization a monster of a thing), and you can end up locked out for an entire fight by a single skill check.

[Ilorin Lorati]

By the time the skill unlock becomes relevant, you have the money for a Lesser Logical rod and Logical spell.

[Kurald Galain]

It's just as easy for a psychic caster to mitigate the Emotion Component as it is for an arcane caster to mitigate armor or being grappled. It's something to be prepared for, not cry wolf over.

So how do you prepare for that, then?

Bear in mind that "mitigating armor" for an arcane caster is as easy as casting the 1st-level all-day buff Mage Armor. Now you're probably not going to dip Paladin for three levels, so how else are you going to counter intimidation?

[Ilorin Lorati]

So how do you prepare for that, then?

Bear in mind that "mitigating armor" for an arcane caster is as easy as casting the 1st-level all-day buff Mage Armor. Now you're probably not going to dip Paladin for three levels, so how else are you going to counter intimidation?

Logical Spell and/or a Logical Rod.
Wands, scrolls, or potions of Remove Fear.
Knowing Remove Fear and casting it with a Logical Rod.


There's a pattern here.

[(Un)Inspired]

So how do you prepare for that, then?

Bear in mind that "mitigating armor" for an arcane caster is as easy as casting the 1st-level all-day buff Mage Armor. Now you're probably not going to dip Paladin for three levels, so how else are you going to counter intimidation?

By always winning initiative. CHA SADness+Noble Scion+Linked Reaction+Allure= Amazing initiative rolls and a damn fine chance to act in any given surprise round.

Access to strong divination magic, teleportation and invisibility (all of which the Mesmerist has) further ensure the Mesmerist first strike capabilities.

[Deadkitten]

lets see what feedback I can give...

Amateur Swashbuckler was hit with Errata that took away opportune parry from the options so...yea..

Also since the stare feats augment your painful stare rather than give it an additional ability ability focus could possibly augment the DC's of all your stare feats if you select Painful stare as its choice. That is kinda nifty with compounded pain.

[Slithery D]

By always winning initiative. CHA SADness+Noble Scion+Linked Reaction+Allure= Amazing initiative rolls and a damn fine chance to act in any given surprise round.

Access to strong divination magic, teleportation and invisibility (all of which the Mesmerist has) further ensure the Mesmerist first strike capabilities.

I can't google Linked Reaction or Allure. What are they? And Noble Scion depends on you throwing out 99% of all character concepts.

Let's not oversell mitigation. Drinking potions takes actions and gives up an AoA that might not make sense if you're just affected one round. Logical spell gives up your move action, and makes you give up an AoA and become vulernable to concentration checks for regular damage. Lesser logical rods are only 3k, but that's just going to ensure you can use weak spells or burn a standard action to remove the fear condition if it's going to last multiple rounds.

But yes, it can be mitigated. The best way is to go Psychic and take the Abomination discipline, the second way is to take the Pain discipline and pick Shaken for your first mercy at level 5. At higher level you have buffs that prevent fear (e.g. Greater Heroism) and it quits being much of a concern. One of the way classes other than the Psychic mitigate having their spell casting shut down is having other options - the Mesmerist has 3/4 BAB and his stare/tricks to improve his melee performance until the shaken condition wears off and he can cast a spell if he'd like.

And you and your GM should also be realistic about how often people are going to choose intimidation as a standard action (special builds aside) rather than attack. Do they know you're a psychic caster? Probably not in the first round. Are they within 30' feet? You should be trying to avoid that when possible anyway. Etc. The risks should be fairly in line with those faced by a wizard who has to worry about grappling.

Psychic casting is fairly balanced, you get something (armor, no grapple issue, less obtrusive spell casting) and you give up something (less mobility in combat casting, concern about fear effects).

[Psyren]

Solid guide. One thing I feel you overlooked though is how easy it is to shut down psychic spellcasting. Yes, you have a great will save. But refresh your memory on the rules of the Intimidate skill.
DC 10+HD+Wis mod = shaken for one round. For every 5 points they beat that by, it's another round
....
I seriously think psychic magic deserves an automatic orange rating at best, especially for non-wis based casters.

I keep seeing this and it's really over-blown. For starters, Emotion components are analogous to Somatic components - there are plenty of good spells that lack them (like Suggestion and Dimension Door) so they can't intimidate you out of all your spellcasting unless you're very shoddy with spell selection. Secondly, Remove Fear potions are 50gp a pop, and since Intimidate effects don't stack, you can keep it suppressed for 10 whole minutes per swig with no chance of it coming back. Third and final, Logical Spell (and a rod of same) is a thing that exists just like Still Spell.

The simple truth is that Intimidate is something psychic spellcasters need to be wary of, just like Grapple is something regular spellcasters need to be wary of. It's a way for mundanes (those folks who don't get nice things) to keep psychic casters in check. And there are ways for those casters to beat it, just like regular spellcasters can beat a grapple.

I mean, automatic orange for all psychic casters, really?

[Ssalarn]

My wife has been having a lot of fun playing the Vexing Daredevil Mesmerist archetype. All of the free feinting feats and the lighter prereqs for stuff like TW Feint combined with self-implanting False Flanker, maybe Shadow Splinter as well, and then using some Dazzling Feints like Sloppy Defenses can make for a really fun Swashbuckler type, and the Mesmerist has some solid spells to back that fighting style up.

[Slithery D]

Another note on Shaken on Psychic casters: The Mesmerist can Touch (Treatment) himself at level 3 to remove this condition as a swift action. I think the Occultist can his focus powers instead of spells until it wears off. For the Spiritualist, arguably the shared consciousness shunt of a mind affecting status as a result of a failed will save should also apply to intimidate affects if you want.

[(Un)Inspired]

I can't google Linked Reaction or Allure. What are they? And Noble Scion depends on you throwing out 99% of all character concepts.

Come on buddy, both Linked Teaction and Allure are not only part of the Mesmerist class, but also very clearly explained in the very guide this thread is based upon.

I'd love to see a proof for your claim that "Noble Scion depends on you throwing out 99% of all character concepts." Unless perhaps you drank too deeply from the well of hyperbole. If that's the case I'd love to hear what percentage of builds actually are thrown out by the feat and why.

[Slithery D]

Come on buddy, both Linked Teaction and Allure are not only part of the Mesmerist class, but also very clearly explained in the very guide this thread is based upon.

I'd love to see a proof for your claim that "Noble Scion depends on you throwing out 99% of all character concepts." Unless perhaps you drank too deeply from the well of hyperbole. If that's the case I'd love to hear what percentage of builds actually are thrown out by the feat and why.

Sorry, I hadn't read the guide yet, I thought that was in reference to general initiative boosters.

99% of backstories don't involve being from a noble family just for min-maxing reasons, that's all. But you don't need this to survive intimidation checks (see commentary above), so you don't have to take this.

---

Regarding spell/feat selections, I agree with the guide that for a spell casting focus it makes a lot of sense to take Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus and work towards Spell Perfection. For a Mesmerist I'd take Enchantment, and pick Quicken, Persist, and Extend metamagic.

The obvious choice for Spell Perfection is Mass Suggestion so you can either Quicken or Persist it, but for a sneaky option I'd suggest go with a free Persisted Cloak of Dreams combined with Compel Alacrity trick. Your DC would be 19+Cha, with two saves required to beat it. Stand next to as many enemies as possible through regular movement and Compel Alacrity, use your stare on anyone proving resistant, coup de grace them all after. Bleeding Stare can be a better than normal feat choice here since used offensively (you go to them) you'll often get a hit in on one them before they fall alseep on their turn, making them a lower priority CDG candidate.

[(Un)Inspired]

Sorry, I hadn't read the guide yet, I thought that was in reference to general initiative boosters.

99% of backstories don't involve being from a noble family just for min-maxing reasons, that's all. But you don't need this to survive intimidation checks (see commentary above), so you don't have to take this.

Again, 99% is a very bold number to claim without any substantiation. How did you get to that exact percentage?

Further, if one looks at the prerequisites for taking the Noble Scion feat, no mention is regarding the nobility of ones family (although I'll grant that the feats benefits reference the characters noble family.)

Seeing as no absolute definitions are laid down for the ways in which the words "noble" and "family" are being used in the feats description I literally cannot imagine a single character backstory for a character that does not include a noble family.

[Psyren]

I think we're conflating things here. Noble Scion has nothing to do with resisting Intimidate; OP brought it up as a way of getting high initiative (i.e. Scion of War.)

And while I agree that it's a nice trick, remember there is an explicit roleplay/setting requirement - "Work with your GM to ensure that your choice is appropriate." So while "the GM might not allow this" is always a potential response, it is more openly called out here, and can even result in your PFS GM ruling no.

TL;DR - I agree any character can potentially take it, but that doesn't mean it will be approved, and the class is fine without it anyways.

[Slithery D]

Again, 99% is a very bold number to claim without any substantiation. How did you get to that exact percentage?

Further, if one looks at the prerequisites for taking the Noble Scion feat, no mention is regarding the nobility of ones family (although I'll grant that the feats benefits reference the characters noble family.)

Seeing as no absolute definitions are laid down for the ways in which the words "noble" and "family" are being used in the feats description I literally cannot imagine a single character backstory for a character that does not include a noble family.

I'm just good at estimating things. For example, I'm pretty sure your chromosome pair count is either 22 or 24.

[Novawurmson]

Keledrath is absolutely correct: Intimidate is an enormous weakness of psychic spellcasters and needs to be addressed. I was going to have a section on it, but I dropped the ball and forgot. I'll add one this week.

However, as several other on the thread have mentioned, there are way of dealing with it, even just in class. From level one, you have access to Mask Misery, which will get you 1d4 rounds of delay/prevention of the shaken condition as a free action. At 3rd level, you get Touch Treatment in full, allowing you to remove the shaken condition 3+Cha mod times per day as a standard action.

But anyway, yes, Intimidate is a huge problem for psychic spellcasters, and yes, I will be addressing ways to get around it.

Edit: Added a section on Intimidate and avoiding it.

Also, Palanan, I changed the introduction to avoid upsetting fans of the beguiler. No offense intended!

[Psyren]

I'm still not on board with your Intimidate section - you are not "locked out of spellcasting" when feared. You're only locked out of spells with an emotion component. There are many that don't have one (just as there are spells without a somatic component) and you can still cast those freely. To best help users of your guide, you should be calling out the ones on the Mesmerist list that don't, since you can cast those without needing Logical Spell.

Also, to address your recommendation, Mark Seifter has stated Androids and other emotionless races cannot provide emotion components. There is a feat that gives Androids emotions, but the good come with the bad (i.e. taking that feat makes you vulnerable again.)

Emotionless Mesmerist spells include, but are not limited to:

Blindness/Deafness
Blur
Command / Greater Command
Suggestion / Mass Suggestion
Dimension Door
Displacement
Geas / Lesser Geas
Irresistible Dance
Mass Charm Monster
Power Word Blind
Denounce
Invigorate / Mass Invigorate
Forbid Action / Greater Forbid Action
Murderous Command
Primal Scream
Steal Voice
Truespeak
Vision of Hell

[Ssalarn]

Emotionless Mesmerist spells include, but are not limited to:

Blindness/Deafness
Blur
Command / Greater Command
Suggestion / Mass Suggestion
Dimension Door
Displacement
Geas / Lesser Geas
Irresistible Dance
Mass Charm Monster
Power Word Blind
Denounce
Invigorate / Mass Invigorate
Forbid Action / Greater Forbid Action
Murderous Command
Primal Scream
Steal Voice
Truespeak
Vision of Hell

That's actually a surprisingly sweet list of emotionless spells. Like, to the point that at least half of those are spells I'd be taking anyway.

[Deadkitten]

Mesmerist are actually pretty good at dealing with fear effects.

Touch treatment is usable as a swift action to remove shaken, frightened at 6th, and cowering and panicked at 10th.

The ability is also SU, so it shouldn't have any hindrances to its use.

[Psyren]

That's actually a surprisingly sweet list of emotionless spells. Like, to the point that at least half of those are spells I'd be taking anyway.

There's even more than that, but I left off some of the ones you probably wouldn't be using in combat (e.g Tongues) which is when being feared is most likely to matter.

The point is that folks are blowing the fear thing way out of proportion like so much else.

[Novawurmson]

lets see what feedback I can give...

Amateur Swashbuckler was hit with Errata that took away opportune parry from the options so...yea..

WHAT. That's total bull. Oh well, made a note in the guide. Thanks

Also since the stare feats augment your painful stare rather than give it an additional ability ability focus could possibly augment the DC's of all your stare feats if you select Painful stare as its choice. That is kinda nifty with compounded pain.

Oh, interesting. I'll add that.

My wife has been having a lot of fun playing the Vexing Daredevil Mesmerist archetype. All of the free feinting feats and the lighter prereqs for stuff like TW Feint combined with self-implanting False Flanker, maybe Shadow Splinter as well, and then using some Dazzling Feints like Sloppy Defenses can make for a really fun Swashbuckler type, and the Mesmerist has some solid spells to back that fighting style up.

Any spells in particular she's liking?

Regarding spell/feat selections, I agree with the guide that for a spell casting focus it makes a lot of sense to take Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus and work towards Spell Perfection. For a Mesmerist I'd take Enchantment, and pick Quicken, Persist, and Extend metamagic.

Persistent is definitely good for the mesmerist - I'll add that

The obvious choice for Spell Perfection is Mass Suggestion so you can either Quicken or Persist it, but for a sneaky option I'd suggest go with a free Persisted Cloak of Dreams combined with Compel Alacrity trick. Your DC would be 19+Cha, with two saves required to beat it. Stand next to as many enemies as possible through regular movement and Compel Alacrity, use your stare on anyone proving resistant, coup de grace them all after. Bleeding Stare can be a better than normal feat choice here since used offensively (you go to them) you'll often get a hit in on one them before they fall alseep on their turn, making them a lower priority CDG candidate.

Interesting, interesting.

Also, to address your recommendation, Mark Seifter has stated Androids and other emotionless races cannot provide emotion components. There is a feat that gives Androids emotions, but the good come with the bad (i.e. taking that feat makes you vulnerable again.)

Is it FAQ/errata or just recommended?

Emotionless Mesmerist spells include, but are not limited to:

Blindness/Deafness
Blur
Command / Greater Command
Suggestion / Mass Suggestion
Dimension Door
Displacement
Geas / Lesser Geas
Irresistible Dance
Mass Charm Monster
Power Word Blind
Denounce
Invigorate / Mass Invigorate
Forbid Action / Greater Forbid Action
Murderous Command
Primal Scream
Steal Voice
Truespeak
Vision of Hell

That's a great list. I'll add it to the guide, thanks!

[Psyren]

Is it FAQ/errata or just recommended?

He didn't "recommend" it - he flat-out stated it:

[Novawurmson]

He didn't "recommend" it - he flat-out stated it:

It's not FAQ/errata, so it's not RAW, but it's worth noting as RAI. He can say that "emotionless" means you can provide emotion components on spells, but "Emotionless" in the Inner Sea Bestiary only notes a -4 penalty on Sense Motive checks.

Edit: Also, I think he deleted that post. I've tried Googling it, and I can only find people quoting him, not him saying it. I think this is the page it was originally from, but his post is gone.

[Psyren]

It's your handbook, I can only tell you what he said.

Also - under Wisdom, you still have a reference to emotion components locking you out of spellcasting, which is not the case.