Being Everything: Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook

[Troacctid]

I found a spell you left out: Flame Sands, from here. Imagine if Call Lightning were a ranged touch attack that dealt 2–3x as much damage and didn't allow spell resistance. And kicker, it's a move action each round instead of a standard action.

[jdizzlean]

I found a spell you left out: Flame Sands, from here. Imagine if Call Lightning were a ranged touch attack that dealt 2–3x as much damage and didn't allow spell resistance. And kicker, it's a move action each round instead of a standard action.

nice find! gonna add to my current druid for game play!

[WhamBamSam]

I found a spell you left out: Flame Sands, from here. Imagine if Call Lightning were a ranged touch attack that dealt 2–3x as much damage and didn't allow spell resistance. And kicker, it's a move action each round instead of a standard action.

Where are you getting that it's a move action each round? Isn't "1 action" 3.0 speak for standard action? Honestly, I'd read it as a standard to cast and non-action thereafter until the duration runs out.

[Troacctid]

Where are you getting that it's a move action each round? Isn't "1 action" 3.0 speak for standard action? Honestly, I'd read it as a standard to cast and non-action thereafter until the duration runs out.

Since you pick the target each round, it should default to a move action as per the general rule for directing or redirecting a spell. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/act...RedirectaSpell

[WhamBamSam]

Since you pick the target each round, it should default to a move action as per the general rule for directing or redirecting a spell. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/act...RedirectaSpell

Ah, okay. I didn't realize it was a general rule and not just something that was written into a lot of spells that can be redirected.

[Biggus]

Since you pick the target each round, it should default to a move action as per the general rule for directing or redirecting a spell. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/act...RedirectaSpell

But you're not just redirecting it each round, you have to make a new ranged touch attack each time. Wouldn't making an attack mean it was a standard action?

[jmax]

I found a spell you left out: Flame Sands, from here. Imagine if Call Lightning were a ranged touch attack that dealt 2–3x as much damage and didn't allow spell resistance. And kicker, it's a move action each round instead of a standard action.

Where are you getting that it's a move action each round? Isn't "1 action" 3.0 speak for standard action? Honestly, I'd read it as a standard to cast and non-action thereafter until the duration runs out.

Since you pick the target each round, it should default to a move action as per the general rule for directing or redirecting a spell. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/act...RedirectaSpell

Ah, okay. I didn't realize it was a general rule and not just something that was written into a lot of spells that can be redirected.

But you're not just redirecting it each round, you have to make a new ranged touch attack each time. Wouldn't making an attack mean it was a standard action?

+1 on Biggus's interpretation. The move action redirect rule is for a continuous effect. This is aiming and making a new attack. That should be a Standard Action unless otherwise specified, and off the top of my head I can't think of anything that allows you to make an attack of any kind as a move action (not to be confused with redirecting a spell that makes its own attacks, since those attacks are the spells action rather than yours).


It's still a solid find and significantly better than Call Lightning overall. Normally the combination of a ranged touch attack (easy though they are) in conjunction with a save would make it unreliable, but the save is only for half damage rather than negating, and the full damage is already almost twice as good as soon as you get it, so beating their Fort save is just a bonus. It scales beautifully Bypassing spell resistance is nice icing on the cake. The only relative downsides are that fire resistance is more common than electricity resistance, that you can't prepare it in advance and lay out the damage at your leisure like you can with Call Lightning, and that it reliably damages or destroys gear that you might want for yourself.

On the other side of equation, being way better than Call Lightning might not actually be enough to make it good. The damage per round actually isn't all that much. At low levels you'll be putting out probably about 15 damage per round on average because enemies will make their save some of the time. That's decent but not spectacular. At high levels it won't actually be much better - maybe 20-25 damage per round on average - because monster Fort saves scale pretty well with level. I think the best use would be plinking weak enemies from above in a bird form, which lets you dish out a fair amount of damage with low risk to yourself.

[Troacctid]

+1 on Biggus's interpretation. The move action redirect rule is for a continuous effect. This is aiming and making a new attack. That should be a Standard Action unless otherwise specified, and off the top of my head I can't think of anything that allows you to make an attack of any kind as a move action (not to be confused with redirecting a spell that makes its own attacks, since those attacks are the spells action rather than yours).

It is a continuous effect? I mean, it lasts 1 round/level, right? "Some spells allow you to redirect the effect to new targets or areas after you cast the spell." It seems to me like that applies here.

[eggynack]

So I noticed that Warforged was left out of the guide, have you thought about putting it in, sure warforged isn't a traditional first choice but it is none the less very interesting due to being able to use your armor in wild shape without adding anything onto it...

Losing wisdom is such a big deal, and not being able to heal yourself is pretty annoying as well. Most of the cool things the race does are also either not that strong or reasonably replicable through spells and such. It just seems like a lot of downside for relatively limited upside.

I found a spell you left out: Flame Sands, from here. Imagine if Call Lightning were a ranged touch attack that dealt 2–3x as much damage and didn't allow spell resistance. And kicker, it's a move action each round instead of a standard action.

Yeah, not sure how I missed that one. It seems pretty great. Trading energy type and the addition of a roll for significantly more damage, a better save type, and no SR is really solid. I'd agree with the interpretation that it takes a standard action though. Yes, redirecting a spell takes a move action, but that doesn't seem to be what's happening here. After all, the ranged touch attack needs to occur whether you are switching targets or sticking with the same target.

[Vizzerdrix]

Losing wisdom is such a big deal, and not being able to heal yourself is pretty annoying as well. Most of the cool things the race does are also either not that strong or reasonably replicable through spells and such. It just seems like a lot of downside for relatively limited upside.

But, but, but TRANSFORMERS!

I remember seeing a feat that gave turning for plants or animals. Maybe it could be used to open up so e other PrCs? I just don't remember where I'd seen it.

Also, killing an aleax gives a bump to wis. May be useful.

[noce]

But, but, but TRANSFORMERS!

I remember seeing a feat that gave turning for plants or animals. Maybe it could be used to open up so e other PrCs? I just don't remember where I'd seen it.

Also, killing an aleax gives a bump to wis. May be useful.

Landforged Walker is famous for being able to wildshape into any Huge Plant as a druid of your total character level, 3/day.
PrC entry does not require druid class features, and it does not advance them either.

[Troacctid]

Yeah, not sure how I missed that one. It seems pretty great. Trading energy type and the addition of a roll for significantly more damage, a better save type, and no SR is really solid. I'd agree with the interpretation that it takes a standard action though. Yes, redirecting a spell takes a move action, but that doesn't seem to be what's happening here. After all, the ranged touch attack needs to occur whether you are switching targets or sticking with the same target.

I mean I don't have my Rules Compendium handy, but if it doesn't take a move action, then I'm not sure how you'd get a standard action? It would be either no action, which would of course be even more powerful, or an attack, which should theoretically mean you could full attack with it as long as you targeted only one creature per round with all the attacks. Am I wrong?

[danielxcutter]

I mean I don't have my Rules Compendium handy, but if it doesn't take a move action, then I'm not sure how you'd get a standard action? It would be either no action, which would of course be even more powerful, or an attack, which should theoretically mean you could full attack with it as long as you targeted only one creature per round with all the attacks. Am I wrong?

You know how Glorious Master of the Elements and Lightning Ring give you standard action options? I guess it's like those?

[Troacctid]

You know how Glorious Master of the Elements and Lightning Ring give you standard action options? I guess it's like those?

The one specifies that it's a standard action. The other is a free action AFAICT.

[eggynack]

I mean I don't have my Rules Compendium handy, but if it doesn't take a move action, then I'm not sure how you'd get a standard action? It would be either no action, which would of course be even more powerful, or an attack, which should theoretically mean you could full attack with it as long as you targeted only one creature per round with all the attacks. Am I wrong?

My thinking was indeed that it's an attack, and that attacks are explicitly standard actions. Can all attacks be full attacked? The spell says you're attacking one target a round, and that kinda implies you're doing this whole thing once , as opposed to potentially several times. Even more so because, as you note, the spell produces a continuous stream. Redirection is kinda weird here, because it would imply that you just don't take an action a lot of the time.

[Endarire]

My understanding of 3.0's "1 action" is that it's your standard action. Always. It's based on the notion that, in 3.0, units could move (their move-equivalent action, or sometimes called a move action), they could do stuff as free actions (talking, feather fall before it was changed, etc.), and their 1 normal action (sometimes called a standard action or a partial action). Full-round actions (labeled as '1 round' or full-round actions) also existed, largely for charging, summoning, and casting sleep.

Compare these spells:
-guidance of the avatar (1 action)

-teleport through time (1 round)

@eggynack: What do you think of gatorswarm as a level 6 spell?

[Troacctid]

Nobody disputes that the spell is a standard action to cast. What's in question is whether it takes a standard action to fire again on subsequent rounds. I don't see any interpretation where that's the case that doesn't also allow you to use it in a full attack. Given that you must select who you're targeting each round, I believe the move action reading is the one the text best supports.

[Doxkid]

With the spell, at best, having two main interpretations it seems most practical to just leave a "Requires clarification" note on it and move on.

[ayvango]

What about Light of Lunia. I'm in doubt what actions it require to fire rays and if I could both of them in the same round I cast the spell.

[eggynack]

@eggynack: What do you think of gatorswarm as a level 6 spell?

Pretty bad. There are a ton of costs to any summoning spell that isn't SNA. You need to prepare it instead of it just being accessible spontaneously, it doesn't work with certain feats and junk (ashbound and greenbound, for example, and the type change removes animal growth as an option as well), and, in certain cases including this one, you are more limited in terms of the creatures you get to summon. So, you need some serious bonuses for it to be worth it. SNA VI allows you to summon 1d4+1 giant crocodiles. These monstrous crocodiles, unless I'm missing something, only feature the advantages of poison and communication. You also get minor bonuses if you're in a swamp, but you summon fewer crocodiles outside a swamp, so it's a bit of a wash unless you're sure you're going to be in a swamp. Which, y'know, could be theoretically fine as an upgrade if giant crocodile were the SNA cream of the crop, but oreads and huge elementals are right there. Just doesn't seem worth it.

Nobody disputes that the spell is a standard action to cast. What's in question is whether it takes a standard action to fire again on subsequent rounds. I don't see any interpretation where that's the case that doesn't also allow you to use it in a full attack. Given that you must select who you're targeting each round, I believe the move action reading is the one the text best supports.

I'm really just not sure why it would be a move action. Redirection isn't necessary to the spell's use, particularly because you have to direct the spell to the target each round regardless of said target. This isn't like boreal wind where the spell just does its own thing each round. You need repeated attack rolls. Also, the game is pretty explicit that an attack is a standard action. To quote, "Making an attack is a standard action." The full attack mode could theoretically be rules viable, but I have no idea where that's coming from exactly. Is there some sort of thing that says all attacks can be full attacked? It's not like the spell adds some property to your attacks.

With the spell, at best, having two main interpretations it seems most practical to just leave a "Requires clarification" note on it and move on.

I could see it. The spell is very good regardless of reading. Definitely wouldn't be unique in that regard. I'm pretty inclined towards the standard action reading though, for such is the nature of attacks, so I might just go with that.

[Troacctid]

Directing and redirecting are both move actions. Many spells still require a move action each round even if you aim them at the same target (cf. eyebite). And while attacks are normally a standard action, there's also a rule that the action needed for a spell supersedes the normal action needed for an attack. When spells do allow you to make normal attacks with them, they generally allow full attacks as well unles otherwise specified, as seen with produce flame and flame blade and the like.

[eggynack]

Directing and redirecting are both move actions.

Regardless, there are actions here that are neither directing nor redirecting. If you're facing a single stationary target, then the second use of the spell doesn't demand any direction. And yet you still need a ranged touch attack.

Many spells still require a move action each round even if you aim them at the same target (cf. eyebite).

And while attacks are normally a standard action, there's also a rule that the action needed for a spell supersedes the normal action needed for an attack.

If the spell claimed to use a move action, as eyebite does, then this would certainly overwrite any general timing rules. The spell doesn't have such a specific rule though.

When spells do allow you to make normal attacks with them, they generally allow full attacks as well unles otherwise specified, as seen with produce flame and flame blade and the like.

Where's that rule come from, exactly? Flame blade seems relatively obvious in this functioning, as it's directly leveraging the rules for attacking with a weapon, but produce flame seems less so.

[jmax]

Pretty bad.

<snip>

These monstrous crocodiles, unless I'm missing something, only feature the advantages of poison and communication.

They do also get DR 10/magic and darkvision, and the range is Medium instead of Close. The damage reduction and range increase are both nice, but they still aren't nice enough.


EDIT: Fengut on the same page is quite good for Sor/Wiz 1 though.

[eggynack]

They do also get DR 10/magic and darkvision, and the range is Medium instead of Close. The damage reduction and range increase are both nice, but they still aren't nice enough.

Oh yeah, forgot the DR. Just didn't notice the other stuff. I find it weirdly funny that you can end up with fewer crocodiles with this ultra-crocodile spell.

[Vizzerdrix]

Landforged Walker is famous for being able to wildshape into any Huge Plant as a druid of your total character level, 3/day.
PrC entry does not require druid class features, and it does not advance them either.

No no no no. Not turn INTO a plant/ animal. TURN plants or animals. Like a cleric. From a feat.

[eggynack]

No no no no. Not turn INTO a plant/ animal. TURN plants or animals. Like a cleric. From a feat.

Sounds like initiate of nature from Player's Guide to Faerun.

[Vizzerdrix]

Sounds like initiate of nature from Player's Guide to Faerun.

That sound right. Thanks Eggy!

[danielxcutter]

Uh...

Plant Shape (Su): At 5th level, you can change into a plant creature and back again three times per day. You can assume any form from Small to Huge. This ability is otherwise like the wild shape druid class feature (PH 37). Use your total character level as your effective druid level to determine duration and maximum Hit Dice.

So yeah.

[eggynack]

Uh...

So yeah.

Right. That's the thing this ability does, and he wanted the other thing.

Anyways, I'm adding the spell, and I'm just gonna stick with the standard action read. It's the one I tend towards and seems like the one other people favor as well. I tossed in a parenthetical that says, "(seemingly as a standard action)," which seems like a fair hedge. I'ma actually give it a tentative blue rating. It seems like a pretty absurd blasting spell. Xd6 is standard rate, and it becomes X² d6 if you use it for the full duration.

[danielxcutter]

Also, Shadow Landscape was reprinted in Spell Compendium. Doesn't seem to be much of a change, if at all though...