OOTS #1003 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

It seems like most of the tactical questions we ask in these threads are answered in the next comic. Either Rich is reading the forums and writing the comic to match, or we're really, really predictable.

You're really, really predictable. No offense.

Actually, it's sort of a third option, which is that everyone asks every possible tactical question right away without allowing for the fact that only so much can happen in a page, and that I might be saving a specific spell or ability for a later page in order to make the battle interesting. So it's not that I'm writing to answer your tactical questions (either in advance or after-the-fact), it's that you're questioning absolutely everything, and therefore practically anything I write in the next comic will answer at least some of them.

[Fey]

...it's that you're questioning absolutely everything, and therefore practically anything I write in the next comic will answer at least some of them.

So in other words, a broken clock is right twice a day. Though this never seems to apply to my digital clock...

[zimmerwald1915]

it's that you're questioning absolutely everything, and therefore practically anything I write in the next comic will answer at least some of them.

Such is the reality of having a forum. Makes one wonder why you bother with it.

[alexandre]

As I understood that, the original spirit goes "dormant" for the rest of the vampire's existence, but isn't destroyed or converted. But that makes sense about Malack -- I guess that's an in-comic way for us not to have to imagine original-Malack inside watching all this for 200 years. The negative energy spirit learns enough and stops 'tapping' the original for memories, which original then hibernates...until the vampire is destroyed?

Well Durkon died and then after a ritual came back as a vampire, maybe after finishing the tapping they just send him back to the afterlife.

[Amphiox]

So in other words, a broken clock is right twice a day. Though this never seems to apply to my digital clock...

This depends on how the clock is broken. A stopped 12h clock is right twice a day. But a broken clock that runs 5min fast is never right. A clock that runs backwards is right once a day. A clock that tells the time at random could be right any number times of day....

[Red XIV]

This depends on how the clock is broken. A stopped 12h clock is right twice a day. But a broken clock that runs 5min fast is never right. A clock that runs backwards is right once a day. A clock that tells the time at random could be right any number times of day....

When you said "how the clock is broken" my first thought was a clock that was broken with a sledgehammer.

[Quild]

You're really, really predictable. No offense.

Actually, it's sort of a third option, which is that everyone asks every possible tactical question right away without allowing for the fact that only so much can happen in a page, and that I might be saving a specific spell or ability for a later page in order to make the battle interesting. So it's not that I'm writing to answer your tactical questions (either in advance or after-the-fact), it's that you're questioning absolutely everything, and therefore practically anything I write in the next comic will answer at least some of them.

I think that the best solution for everyone is that you post the end of the story (the 500+ pages expected, not an abridged end) in one single update. So we won't have time to ask questions between updates.

Let say for next monday, that would be fine. thx++

[Shoelessgdowar]

The Dark One is not part of the Northern Pantheon. He's a "pantheon of one". You can actually see this in the comic as his aura is purple - The Northern gods have a yellow aura, the Southern gods have a blue aura and the Western gods have a red aura. The Eastern gods had a green aura I believe...

Wait... on the Machane, Banjo Glowed Blue... Banjo is a full-fledged Southern Deity?

The calm, gloating HPoH in the "inside the skull" scenes suggests to me that he expects to easily best Roy. While he knew of the spell disruption feat, he's unimpressed by it; he seems to actually think he can take Roy slam versus sword. He may be right; negative levels are nasty. What I don't think he's seen, either live or via Durkon, is the green glow effect. Since we don't understand exactly what triggers that, it is difficult to predict when it will activate.

The longer we go without seeing Chekov's Sexy Shoeless God of War the more I anticipate his arrival, prepared for stabby action. But the lost daggers give me pause; that's an obvious "Roy survives and finds a clue to Belkar's fate" scene.

And I'm still wondering how Durkon is going to get the message to Roy that someone else rules his body. You can see his desperation building with every scene. So, I anticipate that Durkon will get the message to Roy, and that will cause the sword to go green, and then Roy will start winning, and that's when HPoH may try spider climb or shape shift; although I think Spider Climb has some risks, especially if he doesn't start next to the wall and isn't 20' high at the end of the round; also, as long as Roy keeps pressing him, it would trigger an attack of opportunity to climb out of Roy's threatened space. As I've argued, the Moot may well have rules against shape changing, and the HPoH doesn't dare break the rules when most of the room is rooting for Roy.

Hmmmm, when last we saw Belkar, he was Glowing Yellow... could this mean that Odin promoted Belkar to the Northern Pantheon's Sexy Shoeless god of War?

That would be strip 1000. Hel and Loki both expect the outcome to be a foregone conclusion, in favor of Hel because she has a "rapport" with them.

ETA: I've done a mythology search and I find little mention of demigods in relation to the Norse Pantheon -- that's more a Greek thing. Most descendents of divine and human parents were considered to be kings and ancestors of kings of the Danes et al -- which obviously wouldn't transfer to OOTSworld. The Norns might be demi-goddesses, and would indeed seem to sympathize with Hel. But what of the Walkure ? Those are all Odin's servants, and Odin voted "No", so bringing in the demigods SHOULD still tilt the vote to "no".

Anyone more familiar with Norse mythology want to chime in? Or is Rich, perhaps, pulling from a D&D source book or from Marvel?

Not that it much matters. Rich has obviously stacked the demigod-deck to favor Hel, otherwise there is no stake or value in Roy's heroic actions here.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

The Demi-gods could just be every Norse deity not present: Ull (hunt and games), Bragi (poetry), Idunn (youth), Hermod (speed and messenger), Jormungandr (Hel and Fenrir's brother, the World Serpent), Freki (Odin's Wolf), Slepnir (Loki's son, Odin's 8-Legged Horse... only child Loki had as a female), Thrud (Thor's daughter, Strength), Modi (Thor's son, Anger), Magni (Thor's other son, Might), Vali (Loki's son, Bad Luck), Nali/Narfi (Loki's other, other, other, other son, Betrayal), Sigyn (Loki's loyal wife, mother of Vali and Narfi/Nali, Loyalty), Agrboda (Loki's other wife, mother of Hel anf Fenrir, also mother of Jormungandr, Chaos), just to name a few possibilities.

I just noticed, Roy's sword glows even when it's not striking undead. Not sure what to make if that just yet...

I had noticed that myself and was going to mention it and theorize on it, but you mentioned it already.

297 and 298 just say that it has the effect "sometimes" and "from time to time", *and* that it's particularly harmful to undead when it occurs. It's probably like somebody here speculated - that in gaming terms, it occurs on a natural 20, whether the target is undead or not.

Seems to make sense. I considered that it culd be tgat it is Holy, attunef to good, undead bane, and a few other things, so it can proc multiple effects, withe Xykon and Durkuka being extra in deep trouble when it connects.

[Quebbster]

Wait... on the Machane, Banjo Glowed Blue... Banjo is a full-fledged Southern Deity?

I'm not that familiar with D&D rules other than what I have picked up from reading OOTS. Would Elan be considered to use clerical magic as a bard?

[Exodus111]

I'm not that familiar with D&D rules other than what I have picked up from reading OOTS. Would Elan be considered to use clerical magic as a bard?

No, bards use arcane, much like sorcerers.

[Quild]

Wait... on the Machane, Banjo Glowed Blue... Banjo is a full-fledged Southern Deity?

I suppose you know that, but that's Elan's spells color.

[Shoelessgdowar]

No, bards use arcane, much like sorcerers.

No, Bards are divine, calling them arcane is a print error that has never been corrected. Bards cast healing snd cure spells, only divine casters do that. Sorcerors and Wizards can not use such spells, and they were the basis for divine casters. Bards were originally a subsect of the Rogue class division, and were meant to be jack-of-all trades, masters of none using divine magic and using songs to emulate arcane spells, while having some thief skills and being Secondary or Tertiary weapon users.

[Shining Wrath]

No, Bards are divine, calling them arcane is a print error that has never been corrected. Bards cast healing snd cure spells, only divine casters do that. Sorcerors and Wizards can not use such spells, and they were the basis for divine casters. Bards were originally a subsect of the Rogue class division, and were meant to be jack-of-all trades, masters of none using divine magic and using songs to emulate arcane spells, while having some thief skills and being Secondary or Tertiary weapon users.

Bards get a lot of different spells, some of which are clearly arcane (illusions and the like). Bard spells include non-divine stuff like Magic Aura, Invisibility, Shatter, & Irresistible Dance.

A bard casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the bard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. Every bard spell has a verbal component (singing, reciting, or music). To learn or cast a spell, a bard must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a bard’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the bard’s Charisma modifier.

There are no pure Charisma-based divine casters; even the Favored Soul requires Wisdom to learn the spells.

Bards are arcane casters. It says so in the rules; it says so in their spell selection; it says so in their casting stat.

[Gusion]

I suppose you know that, but that's Elan's spells color.

She is really really invested in Banjo saving the world for some reason. That or she's trolling. Hard to tell.

[Seward]

Bards were originally a subsect of the Rogue class division, and were meant to be jack-of-all trades, masters of none using divine magic and using songs to emulate arcane spells, while having some thief skills and being Secondary or Tertiary weapon users.

The first bards were human-only triple-classed fighter/thief/sort-of-druids

This was when nonhumans could "multiclass" and had level limits and humans could "dual class" - start one profession, stop, do another profession, get the benefit of both after you pass the level of the first and have unlimited advancement in their second career. If it sounds complicated and kind of stupidly biased toward humans in the high levels you'd be right. That was by design, near as I could tell.

So yes, divine spellcasting was how 1st edition bards did magic, except that their thief (not rogue, they were THIEVES dammit) "decipher script" skills let them also try to cast spells from any other class off scrolls.

By 3.0, they were completely rewritten as an arcane class that could heal and buff and didn't suck quite as much as sorcerer/wizards at normal fighting. The 3.x Bard has no resemblance at all to a first edition bard, except for the name an the ability to do interesting things with magical instruments.

[eilandesq]

Bards get a lot of different spells, some of which are clearly arcane (illusions and the like). Bard spells include non-divine stuff like Magic Aura, Invisibility, Shatter, & Irresistible Dance.



There are no pure Charisma-based divine casters; even the Favored Soul requires Wisdom to learn the spells.

Bards are arcane casters. It says so in the rules; it says so in their spell selection; it says so in their casting stat.

Also, their chance of spell failure when wearing medium or heavy armor and casting spells with somatic components says so.

[littlebum2002]

No, Bards are divine, calling them arcane is a print error that has never been corrected. Bards cast healing snd cure spells, only divine casters do that. Sorcerors and Wizards can not use such spells, and they were the basis for divine casters. Bards were originally a subsect of the Rogue class division, and were meant to be jack-of-all trades, masters of none using divine magic and using songs to emulate arcane spells, while having some thief skills and being Secondary or Tertiary weapon users.

Clerics, druids, experienced paladins, and experienced rangers can cast divine spells. Unlike arcane spells, divine spells draw power from a divine source. Clerics gain spell power from deities or from divine forces. The divine force of nature powers druid and ranger spells. The divine forces of law and good power paladin spells. Divine spells tend to focus on healing and protection and are less flashy, destructive, and disruptive than arcane spells.

Which divine source to bards draw their power from?

And, like the guy above me points out, the bard wearing armor has a chance of spell failure, and there's a reason that chance is called the arcane spell failure chance.

[Shoelessgdowar]

Which divine source to bards draw their power from?

And, like the guy above me points out, the bard wearing armor has a chance of spell failure, and there's a reason that chance is called the arcane spell failure chance.

1) Bards can draw from the divinity of a deity or spirit, but also Bards are storytellers and musicians, evoking the inner divinity of the soul/spirit.

2) Bards aren't supposed to be wearing any armor besides light, so they act normally in light armor, but instead of making a special divine spell failure in greater than light armor because it is too bulky for a bard to do anything in especially cast spells chance mechanic just for bards, which is a mouthful, they just showed the Bards classic built in multiclassness by using the existing mechanic.

3) every spell a Bard can cast is available to clerics with the correct domain, many of the spells they can cast can't be cast by an arcane spellcaster. There are trickery and light domains, there are not healing or affliction specialist wizards.

[AlurenDarkfire]

NBards are divine, calling them arcane is a print error that has never been corrected.

Then is it really an error? It's been 3-4 editions since then. If that's the flavor you like in your game, cool, but RAW specifically says Arcane.

[littlebum2002]

2) Bards aren't supposed to be wearing any armor besides light, so they act normally in light armor, but instead of making a special divine spell failure in greater than light armor because it is too bulky for a bard to do anything in especially cast spells chance mechanic just for bards, which is a mouthful, they just showed the Bards classic built in multiclassness by using the existing mechanic.

So, by not being able to wear heavy armor, bards are more "multi-classy" than other divine casters?

3) every spell a Bard can cast is available to clerics with the correct domain

Well, let's think about this. You're claiming that the Bard was divine from day 1, correct? Well, when the SRD was published, the following spells could be cast by bards but not by any clerics:

Alarm
Animate Rope
Charm Person
Confusion, Lesser
Erase
Expeditious Retreat
Feather Fall
Grease
Hideous Laughter
Hypnotism
Magic Mouth
Silent Image
Sleep
Unseen Servant
Ventriloquism


Now, if you want, I'll even give you the benefit of the doubt and add in all the domains that have been added since (which doesn't make any sense, since there was still a long time in which the Bard could cast those spells but clerics couldnt), and even go as far as not adding in any of the bard spells which have been added since (since I'm too lazy to go digging).

Even in that case, the following spells still can't be cast by any Clerics.

Feather Fall
Magic Mouth
Ventriloquism



Care to try again?

[Wardog]

How easy is it for a vampire (cleric) to land that level draining touch attack? Will that win the fight for Durkon like Xykon spamming energy drain?

/edit

Apparently it's a "slam attack". 10 HP transferred from Roy to Durkon, and Roy now has -2 to every roll. That certainly didn't help. This can get very ugly very quickly.

What exactly is a vampire's slam attack supposed to represent (conceptually)?

The name and the general description of slam attacks just makes it sound to me like some sort wrestling move.

But the idea of Vampires energy-draining people with a Clothesline or Body Press (or pimp-slapping them, which could be another interpretation) just seems too ridiculous (or too awesome) to be possible.

[Cazero]

What exactly is a vampire's slam attack supposed to represent (conceptually)?

The name and the general description of slam attacks just makes it sound to me like some sort wrestling move.

But the idea of Vampires energy-draining people with a Clothesline or Body Press (or pimp-slapping them, which could be another interpretation) just seems too ridiculous (or too awesome) to be possible.

I think the general idea is that giving them a slam attack is simpler than poking the unarmed fighting rules with a 10 feet pole. See also spirited debates about monk unarmed strike status as natural/magical weapon.

[Princess]

What exactly is a vampire's slam attack supposed to represent (conceptually)?

The name and the general description of slam attacks just makes it sound to me like some sort wrestling move.

But the idea of Vampires energy-draining people with a Clothesline or Body Press (or pimp-slapping them, which could be another interpretation) just seems too ridiculous (or too awesome) to be possible.

I always just conceptualized it as "vampires can punch you so hard it has more in common with getting beaten with a club than with what most people would punch like." The designated game term for a blunt natural attack just happens to be "Slam."

[Shining Wrath]

1) Bards can draw from the divinity of a deity or spirit, but also Bards are storytellers and musicians, evoking the inner divinity of the soul/spirit.

2) Bards aren't supposed to be wearing any armor besides light, so they act normally in light armor, but instead of making a special divine spell failure in greater than light armor because it is too bulky for a bard to do anything in especially cast spells chance mechanic just for bards, which is a mouthful, they just showed the Bards classic built in multiclassness by using the existing mechanic.

3) every spell a Bard can cast is available to clerics with the correct domain, many of the spells they can cast can't be cast by an arcane spellcaster. There are trickery and light domains, there are not healing or affliction specialist wizards.

1) You will of course cite a rulebook that says so. Or even a canonical novel with a bard character who is stated as drawing power from the inner divinity of the soul or spirit.
2) So they aren't like every other divine caster
3) Dealt with by others

At this point, frankly, I think you're trolling us. This is ridiculous.

[Aquillion]

Maybe they're referring to the Divine Bard variant?

[factotum]

Maybe they're referring to the Divine Bard variant?

But the fact that variant exists just proves further that normal bards use arcane magic...

[Seward]

What exactly is a vampire's slam attack supposed to represent (conceptually)?

The name and the general description of slam attacks just makes it sound to me like some sort wrestling move.

By the rules, there are two basic ways of getting a lot of attacks.

1. Be very skilled with weapons. The mechanic here is your first 1-2 attacks (depending on skills/buffs/feats) hit at maximum accuracy, then you take a -5 for each swing after that. Roy's attack with greatsword works this way.

2. Have body parts that are weapon-like. Here, the mechanic is there are "primary" attacks, which use your full strength and attack at full value, and "secondary" attacks, half strength and -5 to hit. These are things like claws, teeth, stingers, wings, tail slap and whatnot.

When your "attack" is something like a fist or other blunt part of the body similar to what a humanoid unarmed combatant might use, most creatures must be specially trained to use it in a weapon-like manner or suffer various penalties. This is what "unarmed strike" is, and "improved unarmed strike" lets you use such attacks with no penalties.

Some humanoid combatants that lack claws or similar pointy-appendage things are granted a "slam" attack (sometimes more than one, usually not more than two, one for each fist). These are typically monsters like giants, earth elementals and similar who have natural armor and whose fists are assumed to hit more like a warhammer or club than a normal flesh-bone fist. Mechanically though, they behave exactly like claws/teeth and not like a weapon.

So Durkula can't get extra attacks with his slam because it isn't a "weapon" where if he swung his staff or did a shield-bash, he'd get more than one swing, based on his "base attack bonus" which is a measure of overall skill with weapons.

There are ways to combine the two kinds of attacks (eg, swing a sword and then bite somebody), but in that case all natural weapons are considered "secondary" even if they'd normally be primary.

It's complicated. Bottom line though, Durkula has to use the actual vampire "slam" attack to deliver his negative energy. He can't do it with a grapple, or with an "unarmed strike punch" or with a bite. So that option is a single attack in his round, at his best attack bonus, no spellcasting, drinking potions, activating magic items or shapeshifting etc in the same round, although he IS allowed to move.

[Random Poster]

A clock that runs backwards is right once a day.

Well, that would have to be a 48-hour clock. A normal 12-hour clock running backwards is right four times a day, for example at 3AM, 9AM, 3PM and 9PM.

[hroþila]

If a slam attack represents the creature hitting particularly hard, isn't it quite... redundant? Why wouldn't it be better represented by unarmed strikes and a high strength score instead?

Maybe this is some of that "system bloat" I've heard about.

[littlebum2002]

Maybe they're referring to the Divine Bard variant?

But the fact that variant exists just proves further that normal bards use arcane magic...

You guys, it's another typo. The Divine Bard is supposed to be the Even More Divine Bard