[3.5/Pathfinder] Polymorph Any Object Limitations?

[Uhtred]

So for International Talk Like a Pirate Day I have invited the two campaigns that I DM (which canonically take place in the same world, and at the same time, just in different parts of the world) to come together for a combined session, and given that one campaign is 95% casters and the the other is 95% melee, I'm looking forward to seeing how they play together. I'm gonna put them on a divinely-cursed ghost ship (my universe's Flying Dutchman) against a crew of Ghost Pirates. Straightforward enough.
So my problem is that one of my players is DARNED fond of the spell "Polymorph Any Object." He's a level 18 Chaos Gnome Sorcerer/Shadowcraft Mage and he likes to use the spell to do things like turning cave walls into linguine or the floor into a fluid and then into tungsten. And the spell wording is so vague that it's hard to fight his ability to do things like that. So what's stopping him from turning my entire ghost ship into lava? Morphing the ghost captain into a ferret?
I can always use DM Fiat: That spell doesn't work on these people or in this place because it's all ectoplasmic ghost material that you're only interacting with because it wants you to be there/the god who placed the curse's magic damning this ship and these folk is stronger than yours/because I say so gorramit, but that seems a little cheap. I'll do it if I have to, but I'd rather have a better grasp of what the spell can do and how. I know that the spell's level is nice and high and demonstrate's a caster's ability to do whatever the heck he wants, but there has to be a limit, right?
Any help here clarifying what the spell can really do would help immensely.

[Kakuga]

For the most part it seems to be a very over powered spell, with the best way to counter it would be just that... Counter it!
However the spell states that it is able to change a pebble into a human and a lizrd into a manticore as well as emulate any of the follwoing spells:

baleful polymorph, greater polymorph, flesh to stone, stone to flesh, transmute mud to rock, transmute metal to wood, or transmute rock to mud.

It seems to just be a broken spell. Counter spell and spell resistance seem to be the best options you will find. That and a high fort save haha

[LTwerewolf]

Anything that can change its own form can just pop out of being polymorphed. Since a ghost's form has nothing to do with its mental capacities, it wouldn't be difficult for them to just change themselves back.

[Bronk]

It doesn't affect magic items. Magic glowing wall? Not affected. Your ship is magically ethereal? Not affected. Already polymorphed? That's not affected either.

It can't create material of great intrinsic value: Tungsten? A completely unknown metal? Sounds expensive, if it even exists in your world.

Can only affect creatures and objects, and a liquid isn't counted as a single object... there isn't 'one water', for example.

Can only affect one object or creature at a time, and a ship is made up of many different parts, even if you just count 'this floor' and 'that wall' instead of individual planks.

It works by touch as well... unless they have the 'ghost touch' property or are on the ethereal plane, your ghosts are safe.


The part that always gets me about the spell is how it can create living things with hit dice from non living things. Granted, it says you can, but it also says that it works like polymorph (at least in 3.5), which says "The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level." I guess an object has the equivalent of a nonability for its HD? Craziness.

[Xervous]

It doesn't affect magic items. Magic glowing wall? Not affected. Your ship is magically ethereal? Not affected. Already polymorphed? That's not affected either.

An object does not become a magical object by virtue of being polymorphed.

[Bronk]

An object does not become a magical object by virtue of being polymorphed.

It definitely does for 3.5. From the 'Polymorph Any Object' spell:

The duration of the spell depends on how radical a change is made from the original state to its enchanted state.

The operative word there is 'enchanted'.

I'm not positive about pathfinder though. It makes the wording change from 'enchanted' to 'transmuted', and I don't know what connotations that might have for the other game. There's still an active spell operating on whatever it is though, so I'm leaning towards it still being an item that is magical.

Edit:

Now, because of that, if the PCs enter a cave, the troublesome PC might attempt to start PAO-ing everything... but he will find that his spell doesn't work! He might then try to dispel the effect so as to have a fresh slate, but that's when everyone discovers the walls, floors, or whatever, were holding back a flood, lava, monsters, and so on. Or they were monsters all along. That sort of thing.

[Xervous]

It definitely does for 3.5. From the 'Polymorph Any Object' spell:



The operative word there is 'enchanted'.

I'm not positive about pathfinder though. It makes the wording change from 'enchanted' to 'transmuted', and I don't know what connotations that might have for the other game. There's still an active spell operating on whatever it is though, so I'm leaning towards it still being an item that is magical.

To quote from the SRD "A nonmagical object cannot be made into a magic item with this spell. Magic items aren’t affected by this spell." Though that leaves a gap in the realm of whether or not it becomes a magical object. "Enchanted state" is not defined in the rules thus tacking on the clause of PAO making something into a magical object is a departure from the strict RAW of the text.

[Bronk]

To quote from the SRD "A nonmagical object cannot be made into a magic item with this spell. Magic items aren’t affected by this spell." Though that leaves a gap in the realm of whether or not it becomes a magical object. "Enchanted state" is not defined in the rules thus tacking on the clause of PAO making something into a magical object is a departure from the strict RAW of the text.

Hmm, I guess you've swayed me on the RAW for objects under spell effects counting as magic items for PAO. What a weirdly written spell!

Another way of limiting the PAO crazy PC would be to have the occasional very large object. If a single object is larger than 100 cubic feet per level, the spell fails.

[Jack_Simth]

So for International Talk Like a Pirate Day I have invited the two campaigns that I DM (which canonically take place in the same world, and at the same time, just in different parts of the world) to come together for a combined session, and given that one campaign is 95% casters and the the other is 95% melee, I'm looking forward to seeing how they play together. I'm gonna put them on a divinely-cursed ghost ship (my universe's Flying Dutchman) against a crew of Ghost Pirates. Straightforward enough.
So my problem is that one of my players is DARNED fond of the spell "Polymorph Any Object." He's a level 18 Chaos Gnome Sorcerer/Shadowcraft Mage and he likes to use the spell to do things like turning cave walls into linguine or the floor into a fluid and then into tungsten. And the spell wording is so vague that it's hard to fight his ability to do things like that. So what's stopping him from turning my entire ghost ship into lava? Morphing the ghost captain into a ferret?
I can always use DM Fiat: That spell doesn't work on these people or in this place because it's all ectoplasmic ghost material that you're only interacting with because it wants you to be there/the god who placed the curse's magic damning this ship and these folk is stronger than yours/because I say so gorramit, but that seems a little cheap. I'll do it if I have to, but I'd rather have a better grasp of what the spell can do and how. I know that the spell's level is nice and high and demonstrate's a caster's ability to do whatever the heck he wants, but there has to be a limit, right?
Any help here clarifying what the spell can really do would help immensely.

Well, first off:
1) The two spells are SIGNIFICANTLY different between pathfinder and 3.5. Which are you using? It's important.
2) There's volume limits in the spells when working with objects: "one non-magical object of up to 100 cu. ft./level" (applies to both versions). At 18th, 100 cubic feet per level... isn't actually all that much, depending on your granularity. An adult human might be about three cubic feet (absolute granularity, based off of weight and density) or 125 cubic feet (5x5x5 square, game granularity), or maybe 18 cubic feet (one foot front to back, six feet up and down, three feet left and right to fit if you use a granularity of one foot). Per Stormwrack, page 95, ships are dealt with in 10 foot by 10 foot by 10 foot sections. He has the volume for it, and can affect one section at a time (beyond that, it's treated as multiple objects, and the target is "one object"). So while he might be able to turn a chunk of the ship into something else... not the whole thing. Oh yes, and the Pathfinder version of the spell has a specific ruling in play from Skull & Shackles Player's Guide that goes "A ship is a collection of numerous objects. As a result, any ship of Huge size or larger is too big to be affected by this spell." (Source).
3) The 3.5 version of Polymorph Any Object inherits two important clauses from Polymorph: "Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to being polymorphed" and "nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form". So polymorphing the ghosts is a no-go from the material plane (3.5 ghosts, however, are corporeal on the ethereal plane if you get there to target the ghosts). The PF version doesn't have those clauses to inherit... but does inherit from Greater Polymorph that the subject must be willing (unless you're using one of the alternate forms, such as Baelful Polymorph, of course... but again, in PF, that effect has the "Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to baleful polymorph" in the underlying spell. Ghosts are pretty much immune to it.
4) Both versions use "nonmagical object" (PF adds a - in there) in the target line. Is the boat magical? Then no, no PaO on it.