We all know about polymorph issues. . . but solutions?

[Fwiffo86]

or, alternately, do they all just take the route that makes the most sense to them, regardless of what route others took?

This is my method of thinking. And since each "pixie" is its own entity, I have to account for the fact that just because sleep is the most sensical choice for one, doesn't mean it is for the remaining seven. It is entirely possible (and in my opinion far more probable) that you would get 5-8 different actions from a group of pixies, and would likely have more than one pixie target a single individual. So while you may have multiple pixies casting sleep, you may also have multiple pixies casting polymorph, or what have you. Heck, you may even have a single player polymorphed into 2-3 various animals as multiple pixies cast the spell on the same guy.

Your logic that a group of entities (granting they are the same creature type) behave in exactly the same manner is not a position I can support. A DM that has 8 pixies target individual targets with sleep suggests a level of planning and sophistication that I just cannot see pixies arriving at on their own without some sort of command structure, something inherently against the very nature of their being.

[SharkForce]

This is my method of thinking. And since each "pixie" is its own entity, I have to account for the fact that just because sleep is the most sensical choice for one, doesn't mean it is for the remaining seven. It is entirely possible (and in my opinion far more probable) that you would get 5-8 different actions from a group of pixies, and would likely have more than one pixie target a single individual. So while you may have multiple pixies casting sleep, you may also have multiple pixies casting polymorph, or what have you. Heck, you may even have a single player polymorphed into 2-3 various animals as multiple pixies cast the spell on the same guy.

Your logic that a group of entities (granting they are the same creature type) behave in exactly the same manner is not a position I can support. A DM that has 8 pixies target individual targets with sleep suggests a level of planning and sophistication that I just cannot see pixies arriving at on their own without some sort of command structure, something inherently against the very nature of their being.

there are several very compelling reasons why a pixie would choose sleep over any other spell in their arsenal as their first action. i'd need to hear an equally compelling argument as to why a pixie would decide to use polymorph as their opening salvo when polymorph allows a save (far more creatures are able to make the save than are able to avoid being hit by sleep) and forces them to become visible and is single target.

against most enemies the average creature is particularly likely to encounter, sleep either does not work at all (eg weak undead or elves) or it is pretty much the most powerful offensive combat spell in the game, bar none. at level 1 (which is about the power level that the vast majority of the world will accept as being approximately normal), sleep is king against any roughly equivalent fight where it works.

now, sometimes it can't work, and sometimes you're not in an equal fight, so sleep isn't always the best choice in spite of being the most powerful overall. and of course, at later levels monsters do tend to have a defense against it. but for a pixie, sleep has probably been the most reliable as well as safest spell they know for winning a fight (which for normal pixies will probably consist primarily of running away, since combat is not fun).

[pwykersotz]

Just going off this, we can imagine a more extreme version:


Toblerone

STR: 117
DEX: 241
CON: 333
INT: 12
WIS: 16
CHA: 10

The Toblerone gets 1d6+2 actions, 1d8+4 bonus actions and 1d10+6 reactions per round.
Actions:
Null Existence: The Toblerone chooses any person, place or thing that exists, has existed or will exist and erases it from reality.
Tickle: +74 melee. 1d1 damage. Tickle can't target the same create more than once in a round.

Reactions:
Null Existence: The Toblerone chooses any person, place or thing that exists, has existed or will exist and erases it from reality.

Bonus Actions:
Null Existence: The Toblerone chooses any person, place or thing that exists, has existed or will exist and erases it from reality.

The Tobelrone abhors performing violence beyond using it's tickle and avoids harming others whenever possible. However it loves getting in arguments with mortals, and will persist in pestering mortals and provoking them to attack it. It intentionally drops it's AC to 20 during these confrontations and will roll over and play dead after suffering an amount of damage that would disable 2 or more of it's assailants.

What is the CR of the Toblerone?

Impossible to tell, you haven't given a definitive hitpoint value. Its offensive CR is 37 thanks to the crazy to-hit.

[Fwiffo86]

there are several very compelling reasons why a pixie would choose sleep over any other spell in their arsenal as their first action. i'd need to hear an equally compelling argument as to why a pixie would decide to use polymorph as their opening salvo when polymorph allows a save (far more creatures are able to make the save than are able to avoid being hit by sleep) and forces them to become visible and is single target.

My first thought here is this is a purely game mechanic knowledge sort of statement, which is something no PC, NPC, or monster could possibly know on this level. Sure, you can probably make the argument that Pixies know sleep is resisted less than polymorph (through their own trial and error) but assuming this is always going to be the choice a group of pixies makes is not as solid a ground as you are suggesting. We are talking about creatures that value entertainment and fun over just about anything else (due to their chaotic nature). You are suggesting they go with the most effect choice at all times, and that it is reasonable to do so (in my opinion a very structured and lawful thought process) which again, I can't see happening, especially when you take the entire group into consideration.

On an individual basis, sure, I can get behind that to a limited extent, but that isn't the scenario we are examining.

against most enemies the average creature is particularly likely to encounter, sleep either does not work at all (eg weak undead or elves) or it is pretty much the most powerful offensive combat spell in the game, bar none. at level 1 (which is about the power level that the vast majority of the world will accept as being approximately normal), sleep is king against any roughly equivalent fight where it works.

The first part of this statement indicates that from the Pixie point of view, Sleep is not nearly as effective as you are attempting to say, since a large portion of creatures they attempt to use it on is met with failure. If this is the intention of your statement, you are furthering my point instead of yours.

Even when taking into account the second half of the statement, that only represents at baseline a 40-60 ratio (ballpark, subject to change) of effectiveness, which if my math is even remotely close, is the same for their other spell choices, or at least comparable to make the decision to use one spell over another equally likely. I am not seeing any evidence that from the pixie's point of view, they would select sleep over any other choice. Especially when they can just invis and run as you have mentioned and not interfere/draw attention from hostiles at all.

It would take a command of some sort from a position of authority (such as a spellcaster who summoned them) to be as devastating to a typical party as you are suggesting. Which to me says that the CR of the pixies is closer to accurate than not. In the case of the "summoned" pixies, they are a function of the spell cast by the actual target instead and are wrapped up in the spellcaster's CR, not their own, since a single break in concentration makes them go away.

I stand by my position. Pixies left to their own devices will more likely than not, prove that their chaotic tactics provide more than ample opportunity for a standard party of four adventures to capitalize on due to disorganization, desire to prank, and genuine lack of an ability to organize of their own free will.

[Mr.Moron]

Impossible to tell, you haven't given a definitive hitpoint value. Its offensive CR is 37 thanks to the crazy to-hit.

For hit points let's go with the base 3 representation of the age the universe in femtoseconds taken at face value in decimal.

[bardo]

I'm still trying to figure out how Sleep nails the entire party.

The Sleep TPK theory ignores how elves and half-elves are immune to magical sleep, and how popular elves and half-elves are as PC races.

Bardo

[Forum Explorer]

Just going off this, we can imagine a more extreme version:


Toblerone

STR: 117
DEX: 241
CON: 333
INT: 12
WIS: 16
CHA: 10

The Toblerone gets 1d6+2 actions, 1d8+4 bonus actions and 1d10+6 reactions per round.
Actions:
Null Existence: The Toblerone chooses any person, place or thing that exists, has existed or will exist and erases it from reality.
Tickle: +74 melee. 1d1 damage. Tickle can't target the same create more than once in a round.

Reactions:
Null Existence: The Toblerone chooses any person, place or thing that exists, has existed or will exist and erases it from reality.

Bonus Actions:
Null Existence: The Toblerone chooses any person, place or thing that exists, has existed or will exist and erases it from reality.

The Tobelrone abhors performing violence beyond using it's tickle and avoids harming others whenever possible. However it loves getting in arguments with mortals, and will persist in pestering mortals and provoking them to attack it. It intentionally drops it's AC to 20 during these confrontations and will roll over and play dead after suffering an amount of damage that would disable 2 or more of it's assailants.

What is the CR of the Toblerone?

It's mostly irrelevant, but I'd put it at CR 21, just so the players can't polymorph into it and abuse null existence.

pixies turning into dire wolves (while you're awake and able to defend yourself) is a terrible idea. dire wolves don't have very good con saves. one good hit (which is pretty easy to land, their AC is not awful but unlike pixies they don't have other layers of defense like very good stealth, natural invisibility, and flight) and there goes the dire wolf form, and you have a pixie in melee range with no invisibility and not hiding, which, as noted, can be killed relatively easily. natural invisibility and flight are key elements in the pixie's defensive CR.

and yes, CR is mainly supposed to be a tool for estimating how dangerous a monster is capable of being. and that's why it's a problem if someone ever does get 8 pixies from a CWB spell.

that's why it's a problem that pixies claim to be CR 1/4 when they should not be. their abilities combined make them a threat. whether the consequence of "defeat" is that you get super trolled or killed, their abilities make them far more powerful than any other CR 1/4 creature, and far more powerful than a CR 1/4 creature *should* be.

whether you like it or not, CR is used as a measurement of the creature's combat power and is very much a thing in 5th edition. it is a very clearly defined element of encounter design as explained in the DMG. it is used for summoning creatures, it is used for determining exp, it is used for various shapechange abilities. if a DM chooses not to use it, then that's their prerogative, but it isn't just some arbitrary number that gets randomly assigned by lottery. it is supposed to tell us something, and the thing it is supposed to be telling us is that pixies are about as dangerous as wolves. a group of 4 level 1 characters encountering 4 pixies should expect:

"... could be lethal for one or more player characters. Survival often requires good tactics and quick thinking, and the party risks defeat".

they should not be expecting to get stomped on without taking a single action, without any saving throw, and needing 3 consecutive fairly difficult rolls to go their way to even get a shot at not being TPK'd.

once again, why the pixies are attacking is irrelevant. if they are not being used in combat, you never need to know their challenge rating, but it nevertheless is there. it doesn't change just because they aren't attacking, any more than a dire wolf that is 100 miles away would have a different challenge rating than a dire wolf that is 100 feet away. it has the challenge rating that it has because of its abilities, not because it is imminently going to try and kill you over the course of the next few rounds.

I'm more thinking that after disabling the other team members via sleep, confusion, or polymorph, they turn into Dire Wolves to take on the last member, or to begin killing the PCs. The point is that raising the CR of pixies just makes them stronger.

Eh, CR does have it's uses, but generally I don't find it necessary, since they give me an EXP value for all monsters anyways. That's what I use to determine difficulty of a fight. 4 Pixies are 200 XP base, effective XP is higher because there are 4 of them (can't remember how much that multiplies it by), and even higher when they are attacking from ambush (they really should provide some guidance on how much more difficult a fight is when you are being ambushed). I'm pretty sure that you are past deadly at that point (IIRC 300 XP is the deadly threshold at level 1).

The CR being incorrect only matters when that leads to the DM accidentally killing the party. You can't do that with Pixie's since their only damaging abilities are only damaging if the DM specifically chooses a version that is damaging. (On a side note, the whole 'get eaten by a monster' illusion doesn't work. It's limited to a 10 ft cube in size.) If you were arguing that, I don't know, kobolds CR was too low because it was way to easy to kill PCs as a result then I might think you have a point. (I actually think some of the werecreatures are too low considering physical attacks can't hurt them unless they are silvered/magical)

For level 1s the problem is the sleep spells. Any opponent with sleep spells is ridiculously dangerous for level 1s to face. Unless they are properly paranoid and spent some money on a crate of kittens in order to give themselves an HP buffer. Or they all bought horses early on. In which case sleep is useless!

[SharkForce]

My first thought here is this is a purely game mechanic knowledge sort of statement, which is something no PC, NPC, or monster could possibly know on this level. Sure, you can probably make the argument that Pixies know sleep is resisted less than polymorph (through their own trial and error) but assuming this is always going to be the choice a group of pixies makes is not as solid a ground as you are suggesting. We are talking about creatures that value entertainment and fun over just about anything else (due to their chaotic nature). You are suggesting they go with the most effect choice at all times, and that it is reasonable to do so (in my opinion a very structured and lawful thought process) which again, I can't see happening, especially when you take the entire group into consideration.

On an individual basis, sure, I can get behind that to a limited extent, but that isn't the scenario we are examining.



The first part of this statement indicates that from the Pixie point of view, Sleep is not nearly as effective as you are attempting to say, since a large portion of creatures they attempt to use it on is met with failure. If this is the intention of your statement, you are furthering my point instead of yours.

Even when taking into account the second half of the statement, that only represents at baseline a 40-60 ratio (ballpark, subject to change) of effectiveness, which if my math is even remotely close, is the same for their other spell choices, or at least comparable to make the decision to use one spell over another equally likely. I am not seeing any evidence that from the pixie's point of view, they would select sleep over any other choice. Especially when they can just invis and run as you have mentioned and not interfere/draw attention from hostiles at all.

It would take a command of some sort from a position of authority (such as a spellcaster who summoned them) to be as devastating to a typical party as you are suggesting. Which to me says that the CR of the pixies is closer to accurate than not. In the case of the "summoned" pixies, they are a function of the spell cast by the actual target instead and are wrapped up in the spellcaster's CR, not their own, since a single break in concentration makes them go away.

I stand by my position. Pixies left to their own devices will more likely than not, prove that their chaotic tactics provide more than ample opportunity for a standard party of four adventures to capitalize on due to disorganization, desire to prank, and genuine lack of an ability to organize of their own free will.

so wait, 40% of all creatures you expect the pixies to meet are elves or undead?

they're not routinely meeting liches. they live in forests. expect them to meet things that live in forests, the vast majority of which will be animals, and the vast majority of those will go straight to sleep with no chance of resisting (there are far more 1-5 HP animals than there are large animals with several hit dice), and even from the remainder most of them will fall asleep well over 3/4 of the time.

for things you would expect a pixie to meet, sleep is extremely reliable. polymorph is not. in a situation where the pixies are engaged in combat rather than just fooling around, sleep will be their go-to tool. and for the record, you can definitely mess with people using sleep.

[Fwiffo86]

so wait, 40% of all creatures you expect the pixies to meet are elves or undead?

they're not routinely meeting liches. they live in forests. expect them to meet things that live in forests, the vast majority of which will be animals, and the vast majority of those will go straight to sleep with no chance of resisting (there are far more 1-5 HP animals than there are large animals with several hit dice), and even from the remainder most of them will fall asleep well over 3/4 of the time.

for things you would expect a pixie to meet, sleep is extremely reliable. polymorph is not. in a situation where the pixies are engaged in combat rather than just fooling around, sleep will be their go-to tool. and for the record, you can definitely mess with people using sleep.

Lets not forget that I was quoting your own statement before we delve into my own statement.

I think it would be more accurate to say that 40% of creatures they "interact" with in any meaningful way is a more appropriate determination. Simply floating by invisible and never interacting does not count. Why would a Pixie interact with ordinary wildlife? It requires a sapient species to react properly to a prank/joke/etc. I can't imagine Pixies putting wolves to sleep especially when they have no real reason to. They can fly. They can turn invisible. The wolves (and nearly all other animals that aren't avians) just are not interesting or threatening to warrant interaction.

As for combat, I am not arguing that sleep is more effective. I am stating that unified, concentrated effort without command control does not happen when you have a "group" of pixies under their own control. Again, a group of chaotic creatures with multiple spells of entertainment to select from is more likely to cast at random than what is in your opinion the most effective tactic. I don't believe a group of pixies (without a controlling entity) is capable of that sort of planning and teamwork.

[SharkForce]

and i'm saying they're chaotic, not idiots. their spells have observable effects. some of their spells work nearly all of the time they use them. some of their spells work about half of the time. this is an observable effect. there is nothing that says pixies choose to use their spells randomly (as compared to, say, beholders, which do use their eye beams randomly), so they don't. they use them intelligently.

individuals are capable of reaching the same conclusion without being led to the same conclusion by an external force. that is true whether we're talking about pixies or some other creature.

[Fwiffo86]

and i'm saying they're chaotic, not idiots. their spells have observable effects. some of their spells work nearly all of the time they use them. some of their spells work about half of the time. this is an observable effect. there is nothing that says pixies choose to use their spells randomly (as compared to, say, beholders, which do use their eye beams randomly), so they don't. they use them intelligently.

individuals are capable of reaching the same conclusion without being led to the same conclusion by an external force. that is true whether we're talking about pixies or some other creature.

To summarize:

Your Position: Pixies will use the most tactically effective spell due to observational effects of its reliability, and will target multiple opponents to maximize their spell effectiveness. Despite their listed penchant for randomness and chaos determined by their inherent alignment.

My Position: A pixie's inherent chaotic alignment prevents them from detailed analysis and consideration about which spells at their disposal are most effective, and distributing targets in the most tactical manner to prevent wasted spells on targets already affected/immobilized. Thus preventing them from working as a cohesive unit of their own accord.

While there is no MM instructions similar to the beholder about casting at random is true, I cannot support your "Tactical" combat approach, due entirely on my understanding of the nature of fey, and the traditional nature of the Chaotic alignment. I as a DM cannot in good faith, have a group of pixies utilize the "most advantageous tactics" as I do not believe it is in their nature to come up with any. It is my job to represent the creatures in game not only as a list of hit points and combat stats, but as individuals with motivations.

You are discussing Observation, Analysis, and Tactical planning amongst a group of pixies. I would agree that a single pixie would probably use the most effect spell to ensure its survival if provoked, but in a group, that is an entirely different situation. Especially if thier motivation is to "mess with" the party and not TPK them.

I understand your point of view. I am not saying they are idiots. But I believe you are ignoring the fact that they are fey. That they are chaotic. All to support your hypothesis that they are improperly marked as their challenge rating. How you would approach a combat with the pixie's abilities is not the question, but how the pixies themselves would respond. And again, this is all devoid of command orders from a third party.

If they were under the control of another creature such as a wizard, this would change somewhat. Especially since the only command that can be issued to the group in a single round would be "Attack/immobilize them." Even this has the problem of it allows the "Chaotic" Pixies a level of control themselves as to what they are going to do. Unless the wizard gave each individual pixie an order in turn (8 combat rounds/maybe 4 if the Wiz is using his action as well) the pixies are going to do what they can to follow the order, but nothing else. There will be no master plan that was preconceived for them to follow maximizing their abilities to deal the most damage.

In either case, there is ample opportunity for the party to respond. It is unlikely that the entire party would be neutralized in the first round, simply due to the unorganized combat the pixies would use. More than enough time to wake sleeping party members, fireball the entire group of pixies, drop a couple of attacks into the wizard that summoned them, etc. Pixies are not nearly as dangerous as many believe them to be if you remember this. Their danger potential is immense and for every reason you have given. But they are not tactical geniuses that work flawlessly together at every given moment.

[georgie_leech]

and i'm saying they're chaotic, not idiots. their spells have observable effects. some of their spells work nearly all of the time they use them. some of their spells work about half of the time. this is an observable effect. there is nothing that says pixies choose to use their spells randomly (as compared to, say, beholders, which do use their eye beams randomly), so they don't. they use them intelligently.

individuals are capable of reaching the same conclusion without being led to the same conclusion by an external force. that is true whether we're talking about pixies or some other creature.

This assumes that the goal they're working towards is incapacitating whatever group they're faced with. They could also just be trying to prank a group of adventurers for fun, in which case such uniform spell casting is... odd.

[pwykersotz]

For hit points let's go with the base 3 representation of the age the universe in femtoseconds taken at face value in decimal.

Error... Defensive CR exceeds unsigned long integer. Unable to compute. Suggest eliminating thread instead, as arguments are vacuous.

[SharkForce]

This assumes that the goal they're working towards is incapacitating whatever group they're faced with. They could also just be trying to prank a group of adventurers for fun, in which case such uniform spell casting is... odd.

in which case they're not fighting you, and their CR is irrelevant. CR measures how dangerous they are in a fight. not when they're talking to you. not when they're putting on a show. not when they're minding their own business. not even when they're just being a nuisance.

[georgie_leech]

in which case they're not fighting you, and their CR is irrelevant. CR measures how dangerous they are in a fight. not when they're talking to you. not when they're putting on a show. not when they're minding their own business. not even when they're just being a nuisance.

Okay. You're in adventuring party going through the woods when some invisible pixies make some noise in the bushes, and when you go to investigate, they pop out and start casting spells on people. From the adventuring party's perspective, is this a fight?

[Fwiffo86]

in which case they're not fighting you, and their CR is irrelevant. CR measures how dangerous they are in a fight. not when they're talking to you. not when they're putting on a show. not when they're minding their own business. not even when they're just being a nuisance.

Wouldn't their CR be relevant whenever they are part of an encounter? Doesn't encounter encapsulate more than just combat? I would certainly rank survive a pixie prank as an encounter, even when they are talking to you is an encounter. Them ignoring you if you are attempting to interact with them is also an encounter. Though I don't think watching the Engermite the Lord of the Pixie Dance as an encounter. Nor do I consider them avoiding you at all costs as being an encounter.

"OH NO! FLY MY PIXIES, THE BIG 'UNS HAVE RETURNED!!!"

[SharkForce]

if there is no combat, it doesn't matter what their CR is, whether it's an encounter or not. CR is for measuring combat power.

as to whether or not the scenario with the pixies casting spells to troll unsuspecting adventurers, that being a fight depends largely on how the adventurers react. until someone is trying to kill someone else, no, you don't really have a fight.

[Fwiffo86]

if there is no combat, it doesn't matter what their CR is, whether it's an encounter or not. CR is for measuring combat power.

as to whether or not the scenario with the pixies casting spells to troll unsuspecting adventurers, that being a fight depends largely on how the adventurers react. until someone is trying to kill someone else, no, you don't really have a fight.

I am going to have to disagree with your assessment. CR is (theoretically) a measuring stick for when a group of player characters can expect to begin encountering specific creatures. While what you say is also true, I think there is way more to CR than simple combat prowess. However, encounters aren't unilaterally about combat. Puzzles, Traps, Diplomatic discourse, and courtly appearances are all encounters too. Anything that presents a player with a reason to use one of their class and/or race abilities is an encounter.

Given the static nature of bounded accuracy, creatures of all CRs pose a threat to characters at any level. Granted, higher level characters are far more competent, better equipped, and have more toys at their disposal. That does go a long way to increasing their lethality, but it also enhances their ability to resist or thwart non-combat related abilities.

D&D is not a video game. Nor is it a purely strategic battle simulator. Combat requires the most rules because of the very nature of it, but it is not the entirety of the game. CR has to encompass far more than combat statistics.

[SharkForce]

CR is for combat encounters. look at the basic methods of determining CR: HP, AC, damage, save DC. abilities that modify CR are generally applied to one of those categories as well, rather than directly changing CR.

you can certainly have non-combat encounters. i'd go so far as to say that if you never have any non-combat encounters, you're playing very differently from most people.

but that's not what CR is for.

[Mara]

Pixies have 1 HP and they can't kill. Sleep only gives the enemy one auto crit.

Pixies are great for non violent ends to fights which I feel needs to be encouraged more in this game. How many fighters in your games choose to knock out kobolds rather than kill them?

[KorvinStarmast]

Pixies have 1 HP and they can't kill. Sleep only gives the enemy one auto crit.

Pixies are great for non violent ends to fights which I feel needs to be encouraged more in this game. How many fighters in your games choose to knock out kobolds rather than kill them?

when it comes to Kobolds, the sooner dead the better, just like rats and mosquitoes.

[SharkForce]

Pixies have 1 HP and they can't kill. Sleep only gives the enemy one auto crit.

Pixies are great for non violent ends to fights which I feel needs to be encouraged more in this game. How many fighters in your games choose to knock out kobolds rather than kill them?

they can kill. they generally won't, but they absolutely can. and, as noted, CR is not a measurement of how likely they are to fight you, it is a measurement of how challenging it will be if they do fight you.

furthermore, even if they won't typically kill you, it is easily within their power to *defeat* you.

[Knaight]

Pixies have 1 HP and they can't kill. Sleep only gives the enemy one auto crit.

It also lets you just leave the sleeping enemies while positioning everyone around them one at a time then letting off ridiculous alpha strike after ridiculous alpha strike. It turns a single straight fight into a series of ambushes.

[Mara]

It also lets you just leave the sleeping enemies while positioning everyone around them one at a time then letting off ridiculous alpha strike after ridiculous alpha strike. It turns a single straight fight into a series of ambushes.

One hit is an auto crit. Then they can act again on their initiative.

You can't delay your action.

[Mellack]

One hit is an auto crit. Then they can act again on their initiative.

You can't delay your action.

But they can all ready their actions to attack after the first one. Which will all be at advantage since the opponent is prone. If they are really smart/mean, they have the pixie who is on initiative after the target do the first attack. Then they all get their readied action, then all the rest get their turn before the victim.

[Knaight]

One hit is an auto crit. Then they can act again on their initiative.

You can't delay your action.

Sure, but if you put multiple people to sleep you can just leave most of them there, then beat one down after getting everyone in position. Then you can do the exact same thing to the rest of them.

[Mara]

Sure, but if you put multiple people to sleep you can just leave most of them there, then beat one down after getting everyone in position. Then you can do the exact same thing to the rest of them.

So how does the combat look to you?

8 pixies attack the 4 man level 1-2 party. They are all invisible and sneak up on the party. They all cast sleep then polymorph into wolves to drag the sleeping creatures to separate locations, then proceed to fight 8 v 1 with the level 1-2 party member.

This basically auto-wipes the party where fighting 8 wolves wouldn't. Sleep itself doesn't end the encounter, if the targets are too close when one wake up they could bellyflop on the rest of the party to wake them up.

For some odd reason I rather like that pixies are both super dangerous and basically harmless.

[Mellack]

They wouldn't even have to drag them apart. 8 wolf attacks, all at advantage, with the first one auto-crit. If just three hit, that will kill most level 2 characters. Then if they had readied, you get up to 7 more attacks before the PC's turn. It would be very lucky to have the PC even get a chance to act. Repeat on the next sleeper.

[Knaight]

So how does the combat look to you?

8 pixies attack the 4 man level 1-2 party. They are all invisible and sneak up on the party. They all cast sleep then polymorph into wolves to drag the sleeping creatures to separate locations, then proceed to fight 8 v 1 with the level 1-2 party member.

This basically auto-wipes the party where fighting 8 wolves wouldn't. Sleep itself doesn't end the encounter, if the targets are too close when one wake up they could bellyflop on the rest of the party to wake them up.

For some odd reason I rather like that pixies are both super dangerous and basically harmless.

Yeah, that sounds about right. Sleep is a nasty ability, and if pixies were a little more willing to straight up stab people, they could do all sorts of damage. There are a few desperate options to try and get out, like taking your one action to lob a rock at another party member and wake them up, but sleep lends itself to some really mean tactics. I'd consider pixies under CRed entirely because of it.

[SharkForce]

unfortunately, sleep is nearly impossible to value properly using the available guidelines.