Dreamscarred Press Presents: "Arcforge: Technology Expanded"

[Nyaa]

Actually, much as I love the Aegis, this would be a good opportunity to hit the brakes, if ever so slightly, on its rampant growth of every-system-ever-get.

Aegis should actually be an archetype... Probably losing access to the other suit forms, a good amount of CPts, and probably replacing the master craftsman and crafting bonus with mech stuff.

I'm going to disagree. If anything, this book is perfect for getting Aegis the way it should have been (synthetist minus spells minus summon monster SLA) if UPsi wasn't so conservative.

[Halae]

By the way, my boyfriend is insisting I pitch a Paladin archetype idea for a mech pilot; the Divine Bond and maybe a couple other abilities like auras seem like good candidates for replacement.

Imagine it - a mech powered by JUSTICE smiting evildoers.

[Sayt]

By the way, my boyfriend is insisting I pitch a Paladin archetype idea for a mech pilot; the Divine Bond and maybe a couple other abilities like auras seem like good candidates for replacement.

Imagine it - a mech powered by JUSTICE smiting evildoers.

Spoiler: Looping gif within

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[ElderLucian]

I definitely need to play in a game that would allow tech because the Rocket Glove sounds perfect for making Yang from RWBY.

[Mithril Leaf]

Actually, much as I love the Aegis, this would be a good opportunity to hit the brakes, if ever so slightly, on its rampant growth of every-system-ever-get.

Aegis should actually be an archetype... Probably losing access to the other suit forms, a good amount of CPts, and probably replacing the master craftsman and crafting bonus with mech stuff.

But that ruins my ability to play an Aegis with access to every system! We gotta ride this baby to the end man.

[Tuvarkz]

We really need initiator archetypes, pitching some ideas:
Warlord-Radiant Champion: The ace of the mech squads, whose mere presences inspires others to perform at their best.
Warder-Fortress Knight: The fortress knight is a nigh-impossible to destroy Mech, painting itself as an obvious target for its enemies.
Harbinger-Warlock: No one knows how, but when the Warlock enters the battlefield, things start going wrong for the enemy. Their mechs randomly fail and their soldiers act erratically, ignoring orders. (Curses everywhere. Also, maybe allow the Warlock to summon their mech out of nowhere)
Zealot-Phoenix Driver: With a heart filled with unshakeable conviction, these Mech drivers go and fight to and beyond their utmost limit. (Shares health between pilot and mech, clearly.)
Also, clearly they are all Code Geass references.

[Mehangel]

Harbinger-Warlock: No one knows how, but when the Warlock enters the battlefield, things start going wrong for the enemy. Their mechs randomly fail and their soldiers act erratically, ignoring orders. (Curses everywhere. Also, maybe allow the Warlock to summon their mech out of nowhere)

I vote that the Harbinger's archetype is called Gremlin.

[Ssalarn]

I vote that the Harbinger's archetype is called Gremlin.

Would the Gremlin have to get a mech? I almost prefer the idea of an archetype whose curses are so potently anti-mechanical that they literally can't pilot one without it falling apart.

[khadgar567]

Would the Gremlin have to get a mech? I almost prefer the idea of an archetype whose curses are so potently anti-mechanical that they literally can't pilot one without it falling apart.

seconded for obvious rationality sir

[stack]

So, the eclipse - a medium size eclipse is stuck commanding his mech from the outside until 7th level since the aerial form starts small. And aerial only gets ranged affinity by default, so you need to build it for both ranged and melee combat to deliver touch attacks?

I am also not wild about dividing your pilot level between multiple mechs. I know that is how a number of animal companion archetypes work, but it seems like a terrible idea for a PC to use since the more you have, the weaker they will be, easy taken out by AOE's and the like and ineffective even before they are destroyed. Works for a higher level boss though. The problem is compounded by the action limitations. It seems like the entire ability to have multiple will just be ignored almost all of the time and no one will play them at all in the early levels unless using a small race (which are good for dreads anyway).

[Halae]

Would the Gremlin have to get a mech? I almost prefer the idea of an archetype whose curses are so potently anti-mechanical that they literally can't pilot one without it falling apart.

I'm thinking I have to vote in favor of this. There has to be someone who crushes tech out there.

[Ssalarn]

So, the eclipse - a medium size eclipse is stuck commanding his mech from the outside until 7th level since the aerial form starts small. And aerial only gets ranged affinity by default, so you need to build it for both ranged and melee combat to deliver touch attacks?

I am also not wild about dividing your pilot level between multiple mechs. I know that is how a number of animal companion archetypes work, but it seems like a terrible idea for a PC to use since the more you have, the weaker they will be, easy taken out by AOE's and the like and ineffective even before they are destroyed. Works for a higher level boss though. The problem is compounded by the action limitations. It seems like the entire ability to have multiple will just be ignored almost all of the time and no one will play them at all in the early levels unless using a small race (which are good for dreads anyway).

A note on the "easily taken out by AOEs" thing - All mechs have Hardness. When determining energy damage against a creature with hardness (and the vast majority of AOE effects are energy based), you first cut the damage in half, then subtract the Hardness value from the damage before finally applying it and actually dealing damage. Mechs are vastly less vulnerable to AOE effects than animal companions.
For example-
Average base damage on a 5th level wizard's fireball is 17.5 (we'll call it 18). We'll say our Eclipse has one 3 HD mech, and one 2 HD mech, giving the first mech 21 hit points and Hardness 3 and the second mech 16 hit points and Hardness 2. The eclipse is planning on using his spreading eclipse ability to lower the light levels and gain himself some concealment, so the mechs are both within the radius of the blast, and the eclipse is really unlucky and fails both saves so they take "full" damage. That means the first mech takes a whopping 6 damage (leaving it with 15 hit points) and the second mech takes 7, leaving it at 9. The average wizard will have one more of those fireballs left (an NPC stat array wizard probably won't even have that), not enough to finish off even the weakest of the two mechs.

I have been considering the action economy issue; originally the Eclipse could remotely command one mech as a free action and spend actions to command the rest (with the built in scaling allowing him to command more mechs with his actions the same way it works now), but initial playtesting indicated that that was really strong, so I throttled it back a bit for the open testing. I'm willing to open that back up if it proves necessary.

[Halae]

Hey Ssalarn, is there anything stopping us from attaching magical items to a mech? Or even mundane ones that fulfill a function. I was personally thinking that (assuming you paid extra for having it wearable by a strange body type) armor bonuses wouldn't be a bad idea, as you could essentially get full plate by applying a ton of interlocking plates to a mech.

The second part of the question mostly concerns magic items - for instance, a cloak of resistance is a staple of the adventuring loadout, but can't really be worn by a pilot due to the whole "no bulky clothes" thing. Is there anything stopping us from putting such a cloak on the shoulders of a mech and calling it a day?

[Kiton2]

I'm thinking I have to vote in favor of this. There has to be someone who crushes tech out there.

You mean like full casters, with their "Aura of protection against Tech" and their "All tech drains and/or fails here, completely" spells and AoEs in the tech guide book?

[Halae]

You mean like full casters, with their "Aura of protection against Tech" and their "All tech drains and/or fails here, completely" spells and AoEs in the tech guide book?

We can't all be druids and wizards of a high enough level to cast those spells, and martials should have nice things too.

'sides, we never complain about stuff like that in regards to magic spells. Technically speaking, spells have more counters than tech does, but how much does it actually come up?

[Ssalarn]

Hey Ssalarn, is there anything stopping us from attaching magical items to a mech? Or even mundane ones that fulfill a function. I was personally thinking that (assuming you paid extra for having it wearable by a strange body type) armor bonuses wouldn't be a bad idea, as you could essentially get full plate by applying a ton of interlocking plates to a mech.

The second part of the question mostly concerns magic items - for instance, a cloak of resistance is a staple of the adventuring loadout, but can't really be worn by a pilot due to the whole "no bulky clothes" thing. Is there anything stopping us from putting such a cloak on the shoulders of a mech and calling it a day?

Hmmm.... Technically yes, you can do that, but let me look at setting up something that makes a little more sense (but can still be refluffed as a cloak wearing mech if that's your thing).

[stack]

Spreading eclipse requires at least two mechs, so I see you miss out on an interesting feature if single mech'd.

Still seems like they would drop quickly in a fight if they got into melee range. Ranged attacks also do half damage verses hardness, so I guess they should be okay as long as you forget about using devastating touch. Devastating touch at range would be more powerful, anyway to make that work?

Any chance of a siege-mech specialist?

[Halae]

Any chance of a siege-mech specialist?

I'm willing to bet that'll be the gunslinger archetype.

[Ssalarn]

Spreading eclipse requires at least two mechs, so I see you miss out on an interesting feature if single mech'd.

Still seems like they would drop quickly in a fight if they got into melee range. Ranged attacks also do half damage verses hardness, so I guess they should be okay as long as you forget about using devastating touch. Devastating touch at range would be more powerful, anyway to make that work?

Any chance of a siege-mech specialist?

I made some adjustments to the eclipse to allow the mechs to use wings of devastation as a ranged touch attack. We'll see how that goes.

I'm willing to bet that'll be the gunslinger archetype.

That would be a pretty safe bet

However, at the moment I'm busy fulfilling a very popular request for a Paladin archetype- Platinum Justicar will be ready for review and playtest before the end of the day.

[Axebird]

A note on the "easily taken out by AOEs" thing - All mechs have Hardness. When determining energy damage against a creature with hardness (and the vast majority of AOE effects are energy based), you first cut the damage in half, then subtract the Hardness value from the damage before finally applying it and actually dealing damage. Mechs are vastly less vulnerable to AOE effects than animal companions.
For example-
Average base damage on a 5th level wizard's fireball is 17.5 (we'll call it 18). We'll say our Eclipse has one 3 HD mech, and one 2 HD mech, giving the first mech 21 hit points and Hardness 3 and the second mech 16 hit points and Hardness 2. The eclipse is planning on using his spreading eclipse ability to lower the light levels and gain himself some concealment, so the mechs are both within the radius of the blast, and the eclipse is really unlucky and fails both saves so they take "full" damage. That means the first mech takes a whopping 6 damage (leaving it with 15 hit points) and the second mech takes 7, leaving it at 9. The average wizard will have one more of those fireballs left (an NPC stat array wizard probably won't even have that), not enough to finish off even the weakest of the two mechs.

I have been considering the action economy issue; originally the Eclipse could remotely command one mech as a free action and spend actions to command the rest (with the built in scaling allowing him to command more mechs with his actions the same way it works now), but initial playtesting indicated that that was really strong, so I throttled it back a bit for the open testing. I'm willing to open that back up if it proves necessary.

That's a function of being an object, not having hardness. Mechs would still take full damage from energy before hardness.

[Ssalarn]

That's a function of being an object, not having hardness. Mechs would still take full damage from energy before hardness.

They won't-
"Much like objects and vehicles, mechs have a Hardness score (as determined by their pilot’s level or their stat block), and take half damage from most energy attacks."

[Vhaidara]

That's a function of being an object, not having hardness. Mechs would still take full damage from energy before hardness.

False. It is in fact a function of hardness. Robots have hardness instead of DR, and that's how it is handled. It also resulted in a serious hatred of robots in my local pfs community (fairly high level adventure, caught them by surprise and cost several rezzes on high level characters)

[Axebird]

With a specific exception that works, but you shouldn't claim that it's just a part of hardness- that spreads incorrect information.

@Keledrath
That sucks. You've been getting cheated by GMs, there's no rule for things with hardness taking half damage from energy attacks. That's specifically from Damaging Objects:

Energy Attacks

Energy attacks deal half damage to most objects. Divide the damage by 2 before applying the object's hardness. Some energy types might be particularly effective against certain objects, subject to GM discretion. For example, fire might do full damage against parchment, cloth, and other objects that burn easily. Sonic might do full damage against glass and crystal objects.

[Ssalarn]

With a specific exception that works, but you shouldn't claim that it's just a part of hardness- that spreads incorrect information.

@Keledrath
That sucks. You've been getting cheated by GMs, there's no rule for things with hardness taking half damage from energy attacks. That's specifically from Damaging Objects:

I'm actually 90% sure Keledrath is correct on the intent, and I could have sworn that there is a FAQ/errata/actual freaking rule somewhere that makes this clear. I included the line to address the fact that it's difficult to actually reference that rule.

[Axebird]

It takes 30 seconds to check the core rulebook FAQ and confirm that's not true.

[Ssalarn]

It takes 30 seconds to check the core rulebook FAQ and confirm that's not true.

I didn't actually see anything in the CRB FAQ addressing creatures and Hardness, which doesn't give an answer either way since the CRB doesn't contain any materials where the question would be relevant.

A little digging did turn this up though-

The rules for halving damage, doubling damage, dealing damage with ineffective tools, immunities, and the like only apply to damaging inanimate objects.
(This is apparently a question the Design Team has received a few times during the development of Iron Gods, so they were ready to go with an answer!)

[tekevil]

By the way, my boyfriend is insisting I pitch a Paladin archetype idea for a mech pilot; the Divine Bond and maybe a couple other abilities like auras seem like good candidates for replacement.

Imagine it - a mech powered by JUSTICE smiting evildoers.

I would really rather Warpriest get an archetype

Reasoning:
-They can be any alignment and any deity
-It has a d8 hit die, which seems to be the average for classes getting archetypes
-It has granular class features, perfect for archtyping
-I need some excuse to actually run a Warpriest

[Vhaidara]

This is pathfinder society. The gm's are literally not allowed to houserule, and can be suspended/banned from gming if they do so.

[Milo v3]

This is pathfinder society. The gm's are literally not allowed to houserule, and can be suspended/banned from gming if they do so.

Then they should be suspended/banned I guess.

[Prime32]

Will there be any way to play a sentient mech? In mechanical terms it could be as simple as a pilot who can't leave his cockpit - if the mech is destroyed, its core remains intact and can be installed into a new body. Could be fun either as a PC or a cohort, particularly if the mech body allows for multiple pilots. A feat that lets you take on human form would be useful, though, so that a mech PC isn't barred from social situations (alternatively I guess you could communicate through your psicrystal or something).